Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Yossarian]

Hoges is 'domiciled' in the US for tax purposes. He was paying duel tax for a while there but decided to stop paying tax in Australia years ago. Yes, Rupert also moved for business purposes. But where you 'domicile' can be easily manipulated. It says degrees about our system that he chose the US. He could have still done the same business activities without calling the US his primary country of residence.

That's not entirely true. He changed citizenship because he was worried about Fox being declared a foreign owned media company. As it turned out the FCC (or whoever made the final decision) said News was an Australian company despite what Rupert had done but that the competition benefits made up for that.

Yeah Hoges is domiciled in the US - perhaps we're working at cross purposes. I thought you were suggesting he had taken up US citizenship. Anyway the bloke relies on his public image to disguise the fact he's one of the biggest tax cheats in Australian history.

I think we are working at cross purposes mate. Citizenship is one thing, but for tax you can influence the 'domiciliary' test to determine where to pay tax. I really don't know the whole Hoges story, but to me, it sounded like he had paid a packet and messed up on a technicality.

My point overall though is the government has to be careful about how hard to hit the top tax payers. I mean, even environmental rebates are means tested by Labor.

I would just like for them to realize that they were so shortsighted to spend the rainy day fund and more and just fix it themselves rather than asking for more money. Halls won't improve educational outcomes, faster broadband won't create new innovations. They need to stop creating debt for us now.

It was certainly not a technicality. It was a rort pure and simple. With the scam his accountant was pulling it is difficult to imagine Hogan didn't know what was going on. The Wickenby people just blinked first…

 

[hammertime]

This is a laugh. Swan trying a preemptive spin attack on yet more wasted money!! I swear this guy was educated on the back of cereal boxes.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/floodrelief/treasurer-wayne-swan-disgusted-by-flood-low-lifes/story-fn7ik2te-1225997323088" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Yossarian]

This is a laugh. Swan trying a preemptive spin attack on yet more wasted money!! I swear this guy was educated on the back of cereal boxes.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/floodrelief/treasurer-wayne-swan-disgusted-by-flood-low-lifes/story-fn7ik2te-1225997323088" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the nature of these things. You either wait, make sure it's 100% right and people who need the money don't get it in time or you get the money out and some of it gets in the wrong hands.

Are you saying they shouldn't make cash available to flood victims under those circumstances? Fine, come out and say that and stop hiding behind the partisan politics. This is nothing to do with Swan - he would be fully aware of the risks of doing it that way.

 

[Blackpearl]

x 2 yoss .. i wonder where all the complaints were from the completely biased media and others in this country when howard splurged and wasted $180 mill of taxpayers money on advertising alone for that ' wonderful ' workchoices campaign. what about the tax cuts lil'johnny gave to big money earners in consecutive budgets that tallied to $180 / week tax cut to those who earned more than 150k whilst the average worker got it you know where !! or the ' one off ' $1000 payment to families in a blatant attempt to buy votes before he was booted out, or using taxpayers money to help out ansett, a private company, when they went to the wall, or the sugar industry that suffered under howards freetrade agreement. but when it comes to the taxpayer helping out aussie mates in their time of greatest need some quibble at paying between 1 and 5 bucks a week for one year !! omg to think that only one side of politics delves in spin is either ignorance or deliberate attempts to snow and con the public.

 

[hammertime]

This is a laugh. Swan trying a preemptive spin attack on yet more wasted money!! I swear this guy was educated on the back of cereal boxes.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/floodrelief/treasurer-wayne-swan-disgusted-by-flood-low-lifes/story-fn7ik2te-1225997323088" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the nature of these things. You either wait, make sure it's 100% right and people who need the money don't get it in time or you get the money out and some of it gets in the wrong hands.

Are you saying they shouldn't make cash available to flood victims under those circumstances? Fine, come out and say that and stop hiding behind the partisan politics. This is nothing to do with Swan - he would be fully aware of the risks of doing it that way.

No I'm not saying that. That's just regurgitating Swan. There is a 3rd option, get it 100% right the first time. If the whole treasury departments, human services and centrelink aren't smart enough to come up with testing criteria, then you sign disclaimers for repayment if it's found out that person wasn't effected to the tune of that sum. Easy as. You obviously won't catch everyone, but at least you have an avenue for recourse and a disincentive for the scumbags.

The one thing you don't do is say it's open season and tell everyone to come and get their bonus.

 

[system]

I don't mind that theory ht but knowing procedural due dilligance that must be complied with when claiming back funds that are overpaid the cost to the taxpayer would be unacceptable to bear

 

[hammertime]

x 2 yoss .. i wonder where all the complaints were from the completely biased media and others in this country when howard splurged and wasted $180 mill of taxpayers money on advertising alone for that ' wonderful ' workchoices campaign. what about the tax cuts lil'johnny gave to big money earners in consecutive budgets that tallied to $180 / week tax cut to those who earned more than 150k whilst the average worker got it you know where !! or the ' one off ' $1000 payment to families in a blatant attempt to buy votes before he was booted out, or using taxpayers money to help out ansett, a private company, when they went to the wall, or the sugar industry that suffered under howards freetrade agreement. but when it comes to the taxpayer helping out aussie mates in their time of greatest need some quibble at paying between 1 and 5 bucks a week for one year !! omg to think that only one side of politics delves in spin is either ignorance or deliberate attempts to snow and con the public.

Yes, I didn't like that he spent that much either! (But I think it was $120m) I don't sit on one side of the fence, just criticize where there is terrible policy and leaders. Howard made some mistakes, but you are talking maybe 2 or 3 and none substantial. I don't like Abbott much either, i worked on the federal budget for DEWR when he was minister, and he isn't all that careful with money. I think he just has a decent team around him.

ha. Mate, sometimes the wealthy have to get a tax cut too. Do you remember in those days the top tax rate was 47%, one of the highest in the world. And from memory, that cut in at $150k. You'll be glad to know the job creators and entrepreneurs of the country are now getting hit with means testing for everything… even solar panels! They don't get anything and the top tax rate is 45% at $180k, still one of the highest in the world. Do you think that makes us competitive for the best minds?

$1000, are you talking about the one to pensioners or to carers? or the 2 from Rudd, one of $1000 for each child and the second one of $950 for everyone under $150k?

If you are talking about the pensioners one, do you know why it was done? Because they needed help, but with the looming baby boomer problem, it wasn't smart to increase the base of the pension. But don't worry, Rudd did that when he came into office. Thinking about the future as always.

The money for ansett helped out the staff, not the company, and uncompetitive industries are going to suffer under FTA, but they are good for the country.

The reason why people quibble about the tax is that there is SO much to cut. It's simply peoples concerns about the current government spending, not that they don't want to help QLD.

 

[hammertime]

I don't mind that theory ht but knowing procedural due dilligance that must be complied with when claiming back funds that are overpaid the cost to the taxpayer would be unacceptable to bear

I agree mate. But it wouldn't for existing centrelink recipients. You can put the onus on the recipient and just make sure they show repair or grocery reciepts.

Plus, it would at least look like the government had tried things to deter these so called 'low-lifes' rather than criticizing them post fact.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

The contracts for the NBN haven't been signed Red, only for Tasmania. Telstra haven't voted yet on the government purchase of their existing infrastructure. Once that is done, contracts will be signed.

Construction started last year on mainland Australia with the 1st site (possibly 2-3 others quickly after) due to go live mid April. There have been a fair few contracts signed and agreed, 1.6 billion $$ equipment contracts announced 2 weeks ago for example. The deals on mainland far outweigh what has been spent in Tasmania already including the further expansion of several sites their this year already in the pipeline.

 

[redemption]

I stand corrected HT!

However - I don't understand how the Govt have stated costs if they are not in contract!?!

I have previously been involved in major Navy procurement projects & the actual cost is unknown until tenders have been evaluated - final contract negotiation has concluded & then only when said contracts are legally executed!!

 

[hammertime]

Ah, you are right MT. I see that the trial sites have started construction on the mainland. From what I understood, they were reliant on the telstra deal going through?! Because thats what abbott was tryimg to block. The legislation passed the senate only recently but I heard it hadn't been agreed at a telstra board level yet.

So, if they already locked in $1.6 billion of outgoings, that seems pretty idiotic to me???

Red - which costs mate? Most figures would have been budget estimates. I think labor have actually made the NBN exempt from FOI laws so we may not see to many actual figures until they've wasted the lot.

 

[stryker]

I'm sorry MT, I'm still not on board even though you present a reasonable case….

The government has the money, start using it!

These selfish idiots are saving the money for a third tilt....

 

[hammertime]

Well we don't have the money mate, it's all debt.

I actually work in a trading firm…yes, i am one of those douchebags. But I can tell you that there is increasing worry in the market about the debt levels abroad, and that we are more than likely creating another, BIGGER, bubble.

Don't get me wrong, we did need 'stimulus'. One of the good things that Labor did was allow the small business asset tax exemption which gave people the capacity to reinvent and upgrade their business. Great initiative. It should lead to innovation and increases in productivity.

Plus, one thing that is good here is Labor is trying to maintain the small surplus in 2013.

But, we have recovered and continue to spend money that isn't ours and even worse, not on assets that will increase the productive capacity of our country. We need to pay down the debt, and fast. Getting to surplus is only the start. If we think the solution to a problem to overspending by consumers is by overspending at a government level, then we deserve what we are going to get.

 

[redemption]

Ah, you are right MT. I see that the trial sites have started construction on the mainland. From what I understood, they were reliant on the telstra deal going through?! Because thats what abbott was tryimg to block. The legislation passed the senate only recently but I heard it hadn't been agreed at a telstra board level yet.

So, if they already locked in $1.6 billion of outgoings, that seems pretty idiotic to me???

Red - which costs mate? **Most figures would have been budget estimates. I think labor have actually made the NBN exempt from FOI laws so we may not see to many actual figures until they've wasted the lot.**

Mate - you NEVER publicise estimated costs/budget for projects prior to releasing tenders because that provides a false base-line for tenderers to bid to!

There is also such a thing called a "pre-contract contract" where the Govt can still be held financially liable for altering tender terms or withdrawing tenders (see the landmark Hughes Aviation V CASA decision)!

 

[redemption]

I'm sorry MT, I'm still not on board even though you present a reasonable case….

The government has the money, start using it!

**These selfish idiots are saving the money for a third tilt..**..

Same as EVERY Govt before them mate!

As I previously stated - that is an inherent flaw of 4-year term democracy!

 

[system]

Very true red.

It is a known fact that if you tell the voting public the truth about the harder times ahead for future gain they will believe the lie from your opponent and [This word has been automatically removed] afterwards they were lied to. It is why we stagnate and false promises are made

 

[hammertime]

Ah, you are right MT. I see that the trial sites have started construction on the mainland. From what I understood, they were reliant on the telstra deal going through?! Because thats what abbott was tryimg to block. The legislation passed the senate only recently but I heard it hadn't been agreed at a telstra board level yet.

So, if they already locked in $1.6 billion of outgoings, that seems pretty idiotic to me???

Red - which costs mate? **Most figures would have been budget estimates. I think labor have actually made the NBN exempt from FOI laws so we may not see to many actual figures until they've wasted the lot.**

Mate - you NEVER publicise estimated costs/budget for projects prior to releasing tenders because that provides a false base-line for tenderers to bid to!

There is also such a thing called a "pre-contract contract" where the Govt can still be held financially liable for altering tender terms or withdrawing tenders (see the landmark Hughes Aviation V CASA decision)!

Which ones are you talking about Red? I understand the $1.6 billion would have been locked down after tenders, but I'm talking about the budget estimate figures mate (i.e. the $53 bil). They are definitely done before any tender arrangements.

 

[senexx]

For those on here that actually wish to discuss politics amongst other things, can I recommend checking out http://dailywire.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - what hopes to be australia's premier political site.

 

[redemption]

Ah, you are right MT. I see that the trial sites have started construction on the mainland. From what I understood, they were reliant on the telstra deal going through?! Because thats what abbott was tryimg to block. The legislation passed the senate only recently but I heard it hadn't been agreed at a telstra board level yet.

So, if they already locked in $1.6 billion of outgoings, that seems pretty idiotic to me???

Red - which costs mate? **Most figures would have been budget estimates. I think labor have actually made the NBN exempt from FOI laws so we may not see to many actual figures until they've wasted the lot.**

Mate - you NEVER publicise estimated costs/budget for projects prior to releasing tenders because that provides a false base-line for tenderers to bid to!

There is also such a thing called a "pre-contract contract" where the Govt can still be held financially liable for altering tender terms or withdrawing tenders (see the landmark Hughes Aviation V CASA decision)!

Which ones are you talking about Red? I understand the $1.6 billion would have been locked down after tenders, but I'm talking about the budget estimate figures mate (i.e. the $53 bil). They are definitely done before any tender arrangements.

Mate - I'm referring to the breakdown of the est. $53 BN that has been discussed in the public arena - these estimates SHOULD NEVER be made public as they are a red rag to greedy tenderers & compromise the integrity of the tender process!

Not to say the current inept mob haven't breached these protocols! (And that is from a frustrated Labor supporter!)

 

[hammertime]

Mate - I'm referring to the breakdown of the est. $53 BN that has been discussed in the public arena - these estimates SHOULD NEVER be made public as they are a red rag to greedy tenderers & compromise the integrity of the tender process!

Not to say the current inept mob haven't breached these protocols! (And that is from a frustrated Labor supporter!)

Definitely true Red. I haven't heard any breakdowns besides the Telstra payment component pre-contract (unless some of the above are), but by the sounds of what you are saying, they were out there.

Man, this cyclone looks bloody scary! I'm feeling for the people of QLD, they just can't catch a break!