Referendum 2023

[Mistymuzzle]

Too many ifs and buts and and an irrelevant association.

Neither the Wests Tigers members vote for the composition of the board nor will the Voice if enacted enable further franchise rights to any group.

I didnt say any of that though.....its an analogy

All Australians elect the government but a small select group get to also elect a group that advises the government.

The analogy would be if all members got to elect the Tigers board but the original balmain and Magpies members got to elect a seperate group that advised the board. How would you feel about that?

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Do we really select government? Did you ever follow the ballot boxes after the voting was done and dusted? I didn't. I have to agree with Kaito on this one.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Thats why Wests Tigers are smart. Cut out the middle man.

 

[TillLindemann]

I didnt say any of that though.....its an analogy

All Australians elect the government but a small select group get to also elect a group that advises the government.

The analogy would be if all members got to elect the Tigers board but the original balmain and Magpies members got to elect a seperate group that advised the board. How would you feel about that?

And of course, it's not just any regular old 'advice'. All future governments will be under a great deal of pressure to legislate any such advice, as not doing so would be seen as defying the express wishes of Aboriginal people.

Can you imagine the media carry on if the voice gave a recommendation on some emotive issue and the government chose to ignore it in favour of a different course of action? The howls of 'racism!' would be deafening.

It will therefore wield a lot more power than the words 'advisory body' imply.

 

[KingRobbie]

Some really valuable and interesting contributions to this thread. Try not to take things personally so the quality can continue over the coming weeks.

Absolutely.

Have really enjoyed and valued reading the vast majority of contributions so far.

Move on from the personal stuff so the thread can remain open.

 

[Betterdays22]

And of course, it's not just any regular old 'advice'. All future governments will be under a great deal of pressure to legislate any such advice, as not doing so would be seen as defying the express wishes of Aboriginal people.

Can you imagine the media carry on if the voice gave a recommendation on some emotive issue and the government chose to ignore it in favour of a different course of action? The howls of 'racism!' would be deafening.

It will therefore wield a lot more power than the words 'advisory body' imply.

Your first paragraph is the common ground. That is the exact purpose of the Voice if you cut out the noise. This is the thing that you either voting yes or no on. It works the reverse too, in that the Voice would then be accountable for the outcomes of the decisions they have advised on.

Governments will have to justify their decisions either way. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[TillLindemann]

It works the reverse too, in that the Voice would then be accountable

How? To whom?

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Aren't you tired of broken promises? And why are they not held responsible?

 

[Betterdays22]

How? To whom?

1) the Voice advisory group provides advice

2) Advice is taken up and implemented by the Government of the day

3) Outcomes are not improved

Those who provided the advice are held accountable. They are accountable to the people who have elected them to represent them on the Voice and will have to justify their decision and performance. Like a government to its people, or a board to its shareholders. (Not like the Tigers board).

 

[Betterdays22]

Aren't you tired of broken promises? And why are they not held responsible?

We aren't perfect, but we live in a healthy functioning democracy (despite the best attempts of the Murdoch Press). Politicians ultimately and eventually are held to account through the democratic process. Scott Morrison case in point.

EDIT: Maybe i'm an idealist.

 

[jadtiger]

I dont think that people who live in the Shire are particularly racist.

Scott Morrison made up for all the ones who are not bigots

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

1) the Voice advisory group provides advice

2) Advice is taken up and implemented by the Government of the day

3) Outcomes are not improved

Those who provided the advice are held accountable. They are accountable to the people who have elected them to represent them on the Voice and will have to justify their decision and performance. Like a government to its people, or a board to its shareholders. (Not like the Tigers board).

1. ( Advice?) Look where its got us today.
2. Government is smarter and more heartfelt than you?
3. Badabing Baddaboom.
4. I feel you are not Weary. Rather astute.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

We aren't perfect, but we live in a healthy functioning democracy (despite the best attempts of the Murdoch Press). Politicians ultimately and eventually are held to account through the democratic process. Scott Morrison case in point.

EDIT: Maybe i'm an idealist.

Ask the homeless people. The mortgage owners. The plastic bag society. Are they healthy?

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

They seem to be perfect. Living well. I mean, aren't we paying for Albaneses visas? In the Philippines and not the Outback?

 

[TillLindemann]

They are accountable to the people who have elected them

So the voice will be directly elected, is this correct?

All I have seen is a vague wishy washy "The Voice will be chosen by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people based on the wishes of local communities" but this doesn't necessarily mean direct elections, it could mean anything, it could mean self-appointed (or committee-appointed) 'representatives' decide what "the wishes of local communities" are.

The whole thing is a dog's breakfast and it is not good enough to be expected to vote yes without having more detail on how it would actually be selected.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

I hope the government dont read this shit. They put me to sleep like the stray dog that I am.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

They hate people that think and don't follow them blindly.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Hence Chat GPI

 

[The Chad]

I don't like to be an alarmist, so I rarely get too involved in the serious debates. But, something to think about.

One of the concerns about The Voice is that it separates indigenous people from the community. It's no longer 1 big community- it's them, and us.

Let's say the yes vote goes through. I get why it would- well intentioned as it is, I think in a sensible society, we wouldn't have to ask if this would lead to future issues among other groups.

So we have a Voice for the indigenous. How long before the alphabet community want a voice? How long before single mothers want a voice? Don't these groups also have issues specifically for their demographic? How many voices does it take to satisfy everyone?

I'd like to think sensibility would take place. But then I see men swimming in female races because they identify as women & some part of society think that sounds good. We have people in our community that feel overlooked, abandoned, left out, separated, different, left behind, forgotten...in all areas.

With ONE voice in place for the indigenous people, does that mean we will be open to every group wanting a voice as well? And when that happens, what was the point of the Voice in the first place if suddenly there are no end of lobbying groups?

It might sound extreme. It probably does. But nothing we are being told (sold) by those that are responsible for giving us a reason to change the constitution has changed the idea that by giving one group a voice, that we are putting one group's needs over another. Or, as a result, starting an avalanche of groups wanting to be heard over others.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Alarmist or Realist?