Referendum 2023

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twentyforty said:
4 of the 17 KPIs are working including the big one..increased number of children at school.
To argue that you need to be part of parliament to have a public platform is nonsense.
you’ll need to come up with something better than that mate?
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More children in school? I dont know.
 
Enmore_Tiger said:
Fair point in terms of 100% technical accuracy. However economic power is probably the greatest determinant of wages as obviously the Unions would set them higher if they could. There is continuous business lobbying to keep wages low and any time a rise is suggested to lobbiests come out against. Even the current attempt to pay digital economy workers better is being critisesed as adding cost to a pizza delivery. I do accept your point though.

The long period of negative real wages growth has been overseen by Liberal governments who are funded by business. As you say wages are set by Government and Employer Groups (and Unions).

No Aboriginal Australians are not technically excluded from the market. However everything they owned was appropriated (taken/stollen) by large and small businesses leaving them no capital to live from nor pass on to their generations of children. They were forced into missions owning nothing.

Capital generates more capital. The ones that appropriated it when on to make further wealth and pass it on. Additionally an entirely different economic system was imposed upon them, completely different to what they had done for many thousands of years. Many posters have been high lighting how so very tough the economic situation is for so many, it's a hard enough system to thrive in as it is.

I'm suggesting Capitalism divides society on wealth/class, and that Aboriginal Australia has been left at the bottom of that pile generally speaking.

Australia was partly founded on this as the lowers classes in England, generated but the industrial revolution, needed to be shipped out as convicts and free settlers being offered free Aboriginal land.
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You forget to mention the impact of globalisation on capital, labour and wealth.
This has transcended democracy and the nation state meaning that a worker in Sydney for example competes not just against the local workforce but against the immigration rate and its impact on unemployment( which is set by unelected offials)plus workers from developing nations making same goods. On top of that he often competes in the home rental market with local citizens plus recent arrivals whether they be students staying temporarily or long-term or permanent migrants. Then to cap it off he then has to compete for a housing purchase against perhaps a wealthy migrant bringing in money of all shades.

When my parents migrated here things weren't like this. Australia had a policy of striving to make sure anybody that wants a job had one and housing was affordable.

Nobody has ever had a voice re this.

Hard to get some people caring about the welfare of others when they themselves are not listened to.
 
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Enmore_Tiger said:
Fair point in terms of 100% technical accuracy. However economic power is probably the greatest determinant of wages as obviously the Unions would set them higher if they could. There is continuous business lobbying to keep wages low and any time a rise is suggested to lobbiests come out against. Even the current attempt to pay digital economy workers better is being critisesed as adding cost to a pizza delivery. I do accept your point though.
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Government and business lobbying does not impact actual wages in the private sector. Low wages for "digital economy workers" is directly related to massive oversupply of unskilled workers relative to demand and opportunity. Again a simple equation.

Enmore_Tiger said:
The long period of negative real wages growth has been overseen by Liberal governments who are funded by business. As you say wages are set by Government and Employer Groups (and Unions).
Click to expand...

That is not what I said at all and it 100% incorrect. I said the minimum wage is set by Government and unions. Actual wages (in the private sector) are set by the market and that is the whole point. That is why capitalism works (better than any other system in history). The minimum wage is a safety net and if you are earning minimum wage you are either very young and not yet developed skills to increase your intrinsic worth, or you have some other problem or impediment that is preventing development and these people need to be looked after with a minimum wage. The market looks after everyone else.

Wage growth has more to do with immigration policy. The fact that wages havent grown is due to a unending supply of unskilled labout filling in at the bottom due to immigration. Low wage growth is a GOOD thing in teh economy unless it is swamped by inflation which it is at the moment due to unrestrained government spending at the worst time possible.
 
Magpie_Magic said:
You forget to mention the impact of globalisation on capital, labour and wealth.
This has transcended democracy and the nation state meaning that a worker in Sydney for example competes not just against the local workforce but against the immigration rate and its impact on unemployment( which is set by unelected offials)plus workers from developing nations making same goods. On top of that he often competes in the home rental market with local citizens plus recent arrivals whether they be students staying temporarily or long-term or permanent migrants. Then to cap it off he then has to compete for a housing purchase against perhaps a wealthy migrant bringing in money of all shades.

Nobody has ever had a voice re this.

Hard to get some people caring about the welfare of others when they themselves are not listened to.
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If they had money - they would be listened too. Dont you think?
 
He
Mistymuzzle said:
Government and business lobbying does not impact actual wages in the private sector. Low wages for "digital economy workers" is directly related to massive oversupply of unskilled workers relative to demand and opportunity. Again a simple equation.



That is not what I said at all and it 100% incorrect. I said the minimum wage is set by Government and unions. Actual wages (in the private sector) are set by the market and that is the whole point. That is why capitalism works (better than any other system in history). The minimum wage is a safety net and if you are earning minimum wage you are either very young and not yet developed skills to increase your intrinsic worth, or you have some other problem or impediment that is preventing development and these people need to be looked after with a minimum wage. The market looks after everyone else.

Wage growth has more to do with immigration policy. The fact that wages havent grown is due to a unending supply of unskilled labout filling in at the bottom due to immigration. Low wage growth is a GOOD thing in teh economy unless it is swamped by inflation which it is at the moment due to unrestrained government spending at the worst time possible.
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Hence rental prices sky rocketing. These guys are good.
 
Magpie_Magic said:
Where's the democracy then?

Most people wouldn't want these policies. Most people wouldn't want 2.5 million visa holders coming during last 2 years when we have scant housing.

Where do you expect rents and prices to go when perhaps 1 in 6 people in Sydney are very recent arrivals.......and you can feel it in the inner west. Amazingly there aren't more people on the streets.

In the meantime they give us the Voice to argue over.

And what chance is there of any real aboriginal reconciliation when it wouldn't even rank in the top 5 pressing issues for most people at the moment as many are battling to survive.
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When both sides of parliament are pushing it, there is no avenue for democracy and whenever it is raised both sides of politics need only scream "xenophobe" and the argument goes away.

It always amazes me that when people on the left scream that it is "corporate greed" and capitalism causing all of the problems and yet support massive immigration. Who do you think this immigration policy benefits?
 
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Mistymuzzle said:
I assume know what a Ponzi scheme is but if not, its a financial scheme where you take money from someone and promise them a high return, then you take money from the next guy making the same promise but using the second guys money to pay the first, then the third guys and so on. Taking money from one to pay the other without actually building capital. Its fraud and what sent Bernie Madoff to gaol for life.

Immigration is a ponzi scheme in which both side of parliament have relied on ever increasing number of new immigrants to boost population numbers and artificially stimulate population and economic growth. The fact that the rate of population growth outstrips GDP growth means that without this artificial stimuli, we would be perpetually in a state of decline and a constant recession. The governments policies on their own are not enough to sustain the economy and promote growth. The biggest growing sector of industry in Australia is Construction which benefits directly from this.

Ultimately it will end in tears because the artificial stimulus (artifical population growth) will outstrip production and capital and ultimately our way of life. It has already started.

www.smh.com.au

Population and wage growth may lead RBA to raise interest rate

Amid warnings that global policies are risking the economy, minutes of the RBA’s most recent meeting show home buyers narrowly avoided another rate rise this month.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au

www.smh.com.au

Record migration revealed: 400,000 to arrive this year

Students make up almost half the intake now border controls have been removed, leading to a one-off net migration surge that will fall to 315,000 next year.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au
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I know what a damn ponzi is Misty lol. What's
the end game though? What is the government
out to achieve by nose diving the economy?
excuse my ignorance and if I've missed the point
 
Kaito said:
I know what a damn ponzi is Misty lol. What's
the end game though? What is the government
out to achieve by nose diving the economy?
excuse my ignorance and if I've missed the point
Click to expand...

When the Bernie Madoffs of this world implement a Ponzi scheme, they know its not sustainable and they know it will end in tears but they dont care because in the mean time they benefit massively, in the present moment.

Same with the governments immigration Ponzi scheme. Each government on both sides doesnt care what its going to happen down the track, they care about the next 4 years if that long. So for the next 4 years the benefit by:
- keeping GDP growth positive and not slipping into recession which they would without it.
- propping up domestic production by means of the Construction industry which is dependent on population growth.
- Maintaining a cheap and abundant unskilled workforce for their corporate mates and keeping wages low adn therefore reducing inflation.

Massive immigration is a scheme for the here and now and both sides of parliament are so deep in now they cant kick the habit.

I am derailing the thread with this economics/immigration talk.....lets stay on topic
 
Mistymuzzle said:
When the Bernie Madoffs of this world implement a Ponzi scheme, they know its not sustainable and they know it will end in tears but they dont care because in the mean time they benefit massively, in the present moment.

Same with the governments immigration Ponzi scheme. Each government on both sides doesnt care what its going to happen down the track, they care about the next 4 years if that long. So for the next 4 years the benefit by:
- keeping GDP growth positive and not slipping into recession which they would without it.
- propping up domestic production by means of the Construction industry which is dependent on population growth.
- Maintaining a cheap and abundant unskilled workforce for their corporate mates and keeping wages low adn therefore reducing inflation.

Massive immigration is a scheme for the here and now and both sides of parliament are so deep in now they cant kick the habit.

I am derailing the thread with this economics/immigration talk.....lets stay on topic
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We are in agreement. For the record I am against
mass-immigration, despite being son of a refugee
and immigrant lmao. I've been accused of
having a drawbridge mentality (see below).
It's unsustainable as you've highlighted above

en.m.wikipedia.org

Drawbridge mentality - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Immigration and economics pertains to this thread because many are currently doing it tough so unlikely to even consider the referendum.

I fear the government knows this and is preparing post referendum blues for us all to get our minds off the real issues.
 
I agree with both Tucker.

Earnest Hemingway once wrote: “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.”
I agree with the second part.
- William Somerset.
 

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