Referendum 2023

[Mistymuzzle]

To be honest in this day and age with smartphones computers and the like there isn't as much need for representative democracy acting as a proxy for us.

We could all vote electronically on most issues bypassing the need for politicians in many cases.

At the very least many more frequent referendums and plebiscites generating real buy in from the public creating a more enfranchised electorate.

But I suppose that would largely mean the end of corruption and outside interference in our affairs not to mention real issues would need to be addressed head on instead of destructive and distractive ones.

Go and spend a day on Twitter, Facebook or even this forum and tell me thats how you want to run a country.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

I think the point is, if you read the actual proposed amendment, it is actually impossible to know the scope, power and composition of the Voice, therefore many will vote no.

When its actually written down in english its hard to be ignorant.

With genuine respect to all the yes voters, I actual feel that it is the yes side of the argument that is potentially more ignorant, or probably better to say, more willing to fill in the blanks themselves. Plenty of yes voters telling me "The Voice will just be this...", The Voice will just be that....", "The Voice doesnt have the power...".

Thats all fine. popint me to the words in the proposed amendment that says that.

And if you are ignora

I think the point is, if you read the actual proposed amendment, it is actually impossible to know the scope, power and composition of the Voice, therefore many will vote no.

When its actually written down in english its hard to be ignorant.

With genuine respect to all the yes voters, I actual feel that it is the yes side of the argument that is potentially more ignorant, or probably better to say, more willing to fill in the blanks themselves. Plenty of yes voters telling me "The Voice will just be this...", The Voice will just be that....", "The Voice doesnt have the power...".

Thats all fine. popint me to the words in the proposed amendment that says that.

The fine print is hard to read. Hence its tiny.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

The Australian has backtracked. Another bold
face lie and smear. She wasn't addressing voters.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701528277339557996

That basically backs up the allegations that she is saying if you agree with the no case you are racist or stupid.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Go and spend a day on Twitter, Facebook or even this forum and tell me thats how you want to run a country.

Hence the surveillance

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

That basically backs up the allegations that she is saying if you agree with the no case you are racist or stupid.

Are you?

 

[Tucker]

Thanks for posting that, all sound questions.
I don't have answers to any of them quite frankly.
In the same token, I don't think that any of the
points that you've raised should sink the vote

I think the fact they’ve had a year to sort this out and have failed to do so speaks volumes towards how this Voice will be conducted once in operation.
Shoddy, half arsed and without direction.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

A year? They've had hundreds of years.

 

[Tucker]

A year? They've had hundreds of years.

The two bodies I mentioned have been in operation for a year.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

The two bodies I mentioned have been in operation for a year.

You've summed it up well.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Irrespective, it didn’t need to be said. According to polls, the majority of the country agree with the NO Campaign. Playing the man rather than the topic through conspiracy theories and vile rhetoric won’t change peoples minds.
If they are getting this nasty 4 weeks out, we’re in for a hell of a ride.

Will be worse after the failed referendum

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

So sad. They have a back up plan. It ain't over yet.

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

Capitalism doesnt determine the minimum wage, Government in conjunction with unions and employer group arbitrarily determine a minimum wage. The actual wage that people gets paid is determined by capitalism and is almost always higher than the minimum wage because it is an actual factor of the employees intrinsic worth due to the market, supply and demand for labour. Capitalism works and has been the driving factor behind the fastest process of lifting billions out of poverty over the last 100 years.



Aboriginals are excluded from the market?

Fair point in terms of 100% technical accuracy. However economic power is probably the greatest determinant of wages as obviously the Unions would set them higher if they could. There is continuous business lobbying to keep wages low and any time a rise is suggested to lobbiests come out against. Even the current attempt to pay digital economy workers better is being critisesed as adding cost to a pizza delivery. I do accept your point though.

The long period of negative real wages growth has been overseen by Liberal governments who are funded by business. As you say wages are set by Government and Employer Groups (and Unions).

No Aboriginal Australians are not technically excluded from the market. However everything they owned was appropriated (taken/stollen) by large and small businesses leaving them no capital to live from nor pass on to their generations of children. They were forced into missions owning nothing.

Capital generates more capital. The ones that appropriated it when on to make further wealth and pass it on. Additionally an entirely different economic system was imposed upon them, completely different to what they had done for many thousands of years. Many posters have been high lighting how so very tough the economic situation is for so many, it's a hard enough system to thrive in as it is.

I'm suggesting Capitalism divides society on wealth/class, and that Aboriginal Australia has been left at the bottom of that pile generally speaking.

Australia was partly founded on this as the lowers classes in England, generated but the industrial revolution, needed to be shipped out as convicts and free settlers being offered free Aboriginal land.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Capitalism = Capital. = Money.

 

[hammertime]

A lot of racists are voting No to be clear haha.
Treating the general public as racists and mugs
isn't a clever strategy though. You hit the nail
on the head in your previous post when you
said "The Yes campaign really needed to sell
to the Australian public why" That's the crux of
it all - It's probably what will sink the Voice too

Yep. Spot on Kaito. But it was also a good chance for the Yes campaign to move the needle in terms of some of the inbuilt racism.

Personally. it took me a while back in the day too. When I was growing up, there were a bunch of Indigenous kids who used to get violent with us on the train on the way to school. For no reason at all, just seemed to be a barrel of endless anger. I was young, fearful and really hated those guys and let it drive my viewpoints.

For a long time, I used that alone and didn't see the bigger picture. It wasn't until I grew up and understood some of the facts around it that my perception changed completely. These kids weren't born that way, they probably had terrible homes and a perpetuating cycle of violence in their families. They never had a chance...

It's such an opportunity for the Yes campaign to tell those stories. Not just talk figures, but show it. Make people understand how this can help break the cycle within the indigenous communities and create a better Australia.

There will be sometimes stories like mine behind the racism. The NT deals with a lot of this. But we need to get people to grow and be able to talk about it, not get backed into the corner with calls of racist.

The 'Yes's have missed a massive window.

 

[Magpie_Magic]

The current "Cost of living crisis", more accurately monetary inflation, has nothing to do with corporate greed, tax breaks, negative gearing or wage increases. 3 years ago inflation was at record low rates and has been for a long time and all of those things existed prior to that. The sole cause of the current inflation spiral is simply federal governments globally (most notably the US) pumping trillions and trillions of dollars into the economy for 'Covid rebates', climate programs, stimulus etc at exactly the same time that global supply chains were broken. Too much available cash in the market chasing scarce commodities equals inflation. its a very simply formula.

Housing affordability also has nothing to do with it. The housing affordability crisis is directly a predictable result of two things. Firstly the ponzi scheme that poses as our current immigration policy which brings in 230,000 new people a year, all needing housing and secondly the insanely liberal foreign investment policies.

People whine and howl about buzzwords and peripheral things when in truth the problems are more simple but bigger and the real problem is both sides of parliament support these issues.

Where's the democracy then?

Most people wouldn't want these policies. Most people wouldn't want 2.5 million visa holders coming during last 2 years when we have scant housing.

Where do you expect rents and prices to go when perhaps 1 in 6 people in Sydney are very recent arrivals.......and you can feel it in the inner west. Amazingly there aren't more people on the streets.

In the meantime they give us the Voice to argue over.

And what chance is there of any real aboriginal reconciliation when it wouldn't even rank in the top 5 pressing issues for most people at the moment as many are battling to survive.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

The visa holders will be Yes Voters. The government gave them hope. Let them in. Uncle Sam wants You!

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Good shout. Interesting points you've raised
there MM. Good example of bipartisanship
I suppose lol. What's the end-game in your
opinion though, if what you say is correct?
decentralisation of the dollar? Scrapping carbon offsets? Putting a halt to immigration?
I'm not sure how you've equated the things
In your post to a ponzi scheme, genuinely curious

I assume know what a Ponzi scheme is but if not, its a financial scheme where you take money from someone and promise them a high return, then you take money from the next guy making the same promise but using the second guys money to pay the first, then the third guys and so on. Taking money from one to pay the other without actually building capital. Its fraud and what sent Bernie Madoff to gaol for life.

Immigration is a ponzi scheme in which both side of parliament have relied on ever increasing number of new immigrants to boost population numbers and artificially stimulate population and economic growth. The fact that the rate of population growth outstrips GDP growth means that without this artificial stimuli, we would be perpetually in a state of decline and a constant recession. The governments policies on their own are not enough to sustain the economy and promote growth. The biggest growing sector of industry in Australia is Construction which benefits directly from this.

Ultimately it will end in tears because the artificial stimulus (artifical population growth) will outstrip production and capital and ultimately our way of life. It has already started.

Population and wage growth may lead RBA to raise interest rate

Amid warnings that global policies are risking the economy, minutes of the RBA’s most recent meeting show home buyers narrowly avoided another rate rise this month.

www.smh.com.au

Record migration revealed: 400,000 to arrive this year

Students make up almost half the intake now border controls have been removed, leading to a one-off net migration surge that will fall to 315,000 next year.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Magpie_Magic]

Go and spend a day on Twitter, Facebook or even this forum and tell me thats how you want to run a country.

What on earth has social media got to do with my suggestion.

My proposition was that politicians would have to debate key legislation put forward by citizens and then citizens would have a chance to vote as with the Voice.

Very democratic.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

A bit like Tax?

 

[twentyforty]

There is no world where you can argue what has been done up to this point worked. It's time for something different. By having a public platform, the Voice can hold government to account. In the same vein, it's brings accountability back to Aboriginal people. As it puts them at the centre of decision making.

4 of the 17 KPIs are working including the big one..increased number of children at school.
To argue that you need to be part of parliament to have a public platform is nonsense.
you’ll need to come up with something better than that mate?