LIVE GAME Round 22 vs. Cowboys

[Bellend]

A catch-up effort for a poor defensive read or just slow defensive positioning.
That's the way I see his "Defence"

Who is at fault and who has not corrected his faults??

 

[lathami]

A special call out to our second rower PORTER , he set up two try’s with great runs , was his best game played the whole game I think , his defence is pretty good , just needs to continue to improve his attack . WELL PLAYED

So u didn’t see Deardon WALK straight PAST him in the first half then? But in attack he actually did something. Much overall better game by him last nite, about time. Must have read my posts?!?

 

[lathami]

Most of those games , the bulk of opposition tries are scored when we are reduced to 12.
The kids just aren’t capable of the resilience required for defending with 12 men . But how many of those infringements were actually yellow/red card . The hip drops … well yea , the nrl drew a line in the sand , and obviously Sezer and a few others didn’t read that email .
But there’s been some diabolical decisions re. Seyfarth and a few others that are horsehit . Like when api got sent when he was square at marker , and the play the ball moved off the spot . Cost us that game as well .
It’s just “yea we got that one wrong “ from annelsley , and then rinse repeat the next week .
I honestly think whist the Sutton gang and annelsley are in charge we are not going to get 50/50 shake of the run of the green . There’s 💯 an unconscious bias , whether people want to admit it or not .
You can’t ref bash for api missing a million tackles and Staines shooting up at ghosts for whatever reason , or ridiculous offloads to no one .
That put us in a vulnerable position for F**kery to begin .
But why does the shenanigans have to happen when we are in these positions ? That’s the issue .
If we are up by 20 , these things don’t happen , but as soon as it’s a close game , and we invite pressure , we get 2-3 horrendous wtf calls , which changes the outcome of the game .
Of course we should be resilient and withhold and defend . But to imply “we are just shit” , it’s intellectually dishonest and totally dismisses the lack of accountability the officials have on this game .
Italian football had very similar issues 10 years ago and it came out that match fixing was rife in that league .
I’m not saying they’re corrupt , but I’m not not saying it as well .
It might even be as simple as these refs watching buzz whistle Dixie all week . It doesn’t make sense .

How does bunji not work on skids’s defence?? It’s been happening for months, coming in and taking nobody is his mantra! What is bunji doing??

 

[bptiger 0]

A catch-up effort for a poor defensive read or just slow defensive positioning.
That's the way I see his "Defence"

Who is at fault and who has not corrected his faults??

I think I am right , but go back and watch it again , I think he slipped into the player , that’s just bad luck

 

[Yossarian]

Coz he made 2 real changers. Failing to kick the ball out from a penalty is one of the worst ways of relinquishing profession and his intercept pass was never on but I’ll grant you it happens plenty of times and to much better players than him.
I just think he needs a rest coz he’s been looking like a bit aloof from the team of late. Just my opinion and I know hes got heaps of potential so I’m not saying he’s not part of our future just think he’s a bit flat.

Not finding touch was unfortunate but really, throwing an intercept pass down by 12 with 90 seconds to go needs to be judged on both the context of the game and the multiple try scoring and line breaks he created with his passing game.

 

[Tucker]

Your last paragraph proves my point though . The ref is supposed to be impartial . Yesterday has no bearing on today , as today on tomorrow . It’s simply referee what’s in front of you .
But they’re not . A reputation in the very definition of the word , implies a bias coming into an interaction .

I am not saying there isnt bias. Im saying that there is no conspiracy.
For 25 years now, Wests Tigers has not fulfilled its obligations to play elite Rugby League to the same standard that their peers do.
There is an expectation that players at this level do not hamper the flow of the game by lying in the ruck, being offside constantly or commiting illegal plays. There are certain intracacies, especially regarding defence that our squads have never embraced correctly. The wrestle being a big one. There are a couple of teams who the officials have noted are repeat offenders year after year in these areas. We are one of them.

You always seem to lean to “we just have to be better can’t blame the refs” which is the right frame of mind for a coach to be instilling in his players . Contrary to what you might think . I 100 💯 agree with you on this . Otherwise it leads to negative thoughts and scapegoating . And inevitably failure .
But we aren’t on the field , we arnt coaching.

True but I am heavily trained in certain areas and its second nature for me to lean towards adaptation and improvisation when under duress. Our level of competency causes a lot of problems and they are exacerbated by our complete inability to defend an error or setback.

As an observer , the fact reputation is a variable is a direct breach to the integrity of the game .

So is constantly not preparing and performing to the required levels. We have brought this reputation upon ourselves over a long period of ineptness.

And what your saying about the roosters is true , I knew they were a bad example when I used them , but the overall numbers don’t get to the heart of my point ie. when the game is on the line , I can’t see a ref making the most harshest interpretation possible . Their infringements are usually pretty on point with accuracy , as nothing like us , they are a hard team , with hard men , who’s game plan is to win the battle in the middle .
If we are poor , we should be punished , Ill disciplined, likewise .
But last night was something else entirely . And no I’m not excusing the horrendous api defence , the Staines catching flies , the poor execution out of transition .
But as I said in another response , being shit is not an invitation for the refs to begin the f**kery . It’s an invitation for the opposition to put us too the sword . But that’s not what’s been happening .

So why do you think the refs are doing it?

 

[The Chad]

Our inside defenders are exposed quite often- shows laziness in defence, not inability.

There are only a couple of guys in the middle that can be relied on to fill gaps. Klemmer is often overlooked for this.

 

[Siberian Kitten]

Our problem is the NRL's problem. They can't indefinitely shift blame onto the weakest club. It makes a mockery of their salary cap, which is all about fairness. They can't perpetuate unfairness in that environment.

... theoretically ...

I was an old NS Bears fan. They were treated similarly when the powers-that-be decided to upgrade.

Every now and then purge some old "outdated" Sydney clubs so they can introduce their shiny new interstate of OS clubs - and they make sure they go okay with huge support from both bosses and refs. It didn't help that our board was too precious to hire Flanno when he was the obvious best candidate.

As the song goes, it's all just a little bit of history repeating ...

 

[Lestronge]

I am not saying there isnt bias. Im saying that there is no conspiracy.
For 25 years now, Wests Tigers has not fulfilled its obligations to play elite Rugby League to the same standard that their peers do.
There is an expectation that players at this level do not hamper the flow of the game by lying in the ruck, being offside constantly or commiting illegal plays. There are certain intracacies, especially regarding defence that our squads have never embraced correctly. The wrestle being a big one. There are a couple of teams who the officials have noted are repeat offenders year after year in these areas. We are one of them.

True but I am heavily trained in certain areas and its second nature for me to lean towards adaptation and improvisation when under duress. Our level of competency causes a lot of problems and they are exacerbated by our complete inability to defend an error or setback.

So is constantly not preparing and performing to the required levels. We have brought this reputation upon ourselves over a long period of ineptness.

So why do you think the refs are doing it?

They sit and review tape , some teams are better at mid week politicking to get an advantage , obviously unconscious bias , broadcast pressure for a better spectacle and the definitions of what that means , external influence like 360, KPIs and the metrics on which referees performance is reviewed .

And simply bad referees trained under the program of an inferior refereeing family , produces mindless drones incapable of a true understanding of “spirit of the game , game management “ type concepts . People use these words as jargon and buzz words for headlines , and click bait , but in reality at thier core , it’s a real lack of understanding of the fundamental spirit of the game . Their interpretation is like if the kid who sat in the library studying physics , grew up to land a corporate job , and was given the nrl rules handbook , and told to interpret that and transpose that to game day situations .
It’s crazy that things have gotten way worse from the ruck scrutiny 2 ref system to this , whatever this is . I’ve never ever been a ref basher in my life . But in these last few years it’s beyond crazy. And of course it’s made even worse by the fact that as a team we are so dependant on the run of the green , because we arnt up to the standard , and have been found wanting from the change to vlandys ball . People forget , prior to vldsndys ball in the pre Covid season , we were tipped for a top 8 spot . We never adapted and recruited poorly , but I digress , the issue IMHO , is much like Luke brooks , there’s been soo many dum dums fill these guys heads full of junk , they can’t interpret for themselves anymore .
So it becomes a case of what’s the outcome that will have the least affect on the season . And penalty tigers , because we are so bad , is the answer to that question .
But I’ll say again , why is that question even being asked ! It’s the ref job to stay out of the way , it’s not union , the fabric of the game isn’t at the mercy of the ref . That’s the whole issue .
Origin is such a spectacle because the ref puts the whistle away . And whilst soo much of that type of football can’t be allowed in week to week nrl , the current a million penalties a game , and endless 6 agains with no explanation ever for what most of them are for , is not good . And whilst yes I have black and gold glasses on , just go into the roosters forum or any other , and the narrative is the same .
The ref and officials in this game needs complete revamp and come to Jesus because it is just not working .
And The disciple Klein and anymore who is influenced by him and the Sutton family , are the reason for it .

 

[Lestronge]

@Tucker
Also I’m fairly Certain I’ve had the same training or near or there to within reason , for obvious reason , that adapting to what’s in front of me is also par the course .
But the message I always took from that type of training , is to question especially in debrief , what that was about .
Which is pretty much what’s going on now . And whilst when given lemons you have to make lemonade , to not ask why you were given lemons in the first place , is to doom yourself to a never ending cycle of history repeating .
Which is where we are right now .
And once again , no , that doesn’t dismiss the teams own accountability for allowing the lemons to be a variable .

 

[Tucker]

Tucker - you may want to refamiliarize yourself with the term "conspiracy theory"... 😎 I think what people may be saying is that the bottom (weaker) clubs have copped the rough end of the pineapple, and the refs tend to favor the stronger clubs when it comes to some calls.

Why should they care? What is in it for them?

In effect, if you are also familiar with football (of the round game category) - no different there too. This said, 100% with you - without doubt, we are at the darkest point of our combined history. I honestly can't even imagine how Marshall starts the training sessions on Monday, or what they video reviews of the games are like, for him and the team.

I think he needs to strip the squad back and re-instill the need to be as close to perfect as possible on the fundamentals. I mean for all his brash brilliance, Bula has made 28 errors this year. Too many. For all his leadership and kicking experience, Sezer is close to the worst in the comp for poor discipline. The guy has been charged and convicted 5 times and sat out 6 weeks whilst also being pinged for 16 penalties in 14 games - effectively the worst record in the competition. Api has had an indifferent year with lots of poor discipline and errors mixed with the worst defence in the comp - 100 missed tackles in 18 games is too many.

Our defence is very very poor. We are currently on track, if we keep conceeding 5+ tries per game, to have the worst defensive return IN OUR HISTORY AS A CLUB! Our worst season was 2001 (746 points conceeded) We are currently sitting on 614 with 4 games remaining. It should also be considered that 2001 was a 26 game season. This year is 24.
Our attack is actually improving and we could end up saving ourselves from complete embarrassment with it. However it still needs lots and lots of work at a fundamental level. Draw and pass, positioning and running correct lines is a weakness.
Our kick chase and kicking in general are not great.
Our discipline and error rates are poor.
Our ability to have multiple players in motion on every play is woeful.
Before we get too fancy, which is something this squad can do quite effectively, Id nail the easy stuff thats tough to be consistently good in.

 

[WesternSuburbsBoy]

Coz they are so woke.
I started to voice my feelings but was told to stop and respect his right to leave for a better opportunity. His loyalty and heart were not even questioned.
On my way home I realised I’m officially a dinosaur and the way I was brought up is so different to today it’s useless trying to fight it.
Maybe time for me to leave the Forum, I’ll think about it over the weekend.

where were you sitting? I was up on the hill & he copped heaps 😂

 

[pawsandclaws1]

The easiest explanation is that we are ill-disciplined. Being at the bottom of the ladder makes it easier for the referee to penalise WTs without being scrutinised by the referee's boss. Each player needs to look at their own discipline and on a positive note I watched Seyfarth not react to overly aggressive play by a Cowboys' forward toward him when tackled. It seems the message is getting through to some of our players.

 

[The Chad]

The easiest explanation is that we are ill-disciplined. Being at the bottom of the ladder makes it easier for the referee to penalise WTs without being scrutinised by the referee's boss. Each player needs to look at their own discipline and on a positive note I watched Seyfarth not react to overly aggressive play by a Cowboys' forward toward him when tackled. It seems the message is getting through to some of our players.

Seyfarth is part of the solution

 

[Lestronge]

The easiest explanation is that we are ill-disciplined. Being at the bottom of the ladder makes it easier for the referee to penalise WTs without being scrutinised by the referee's boss. Each player needs to look at their own discipline and on a positive note I watched Seyfarth not react to overly aggressive play by a Cowboys' forward toward him when tackled. It seems the message is getting through to some of our players.

Agreed 💯. But it still begs the question . Why do our players need to be saints just to get a fair run of the green from the refs . No other team has play with that kind of noose hangin over thier head .

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Agreed 💯. But it still begs the question . Why do our players need to be saints just to get a fair run of the green from the refs . No other team has play with that kind of noose hangin over thier head .

As we improve, our 'image' with the referees will improve.

 

[Tucker]

As we improve, our 'image' with the referees will improve.

Yes. Exactly.
When we start nailing the basics and control the games better, the frantic actions that cause the penalties shift to the other side. It happens with the 'ebbs and flows' that Madge was so interested in.

 

[Tucker]

@Tucker
Also I’m fairly Certain I’ve had the same training or near or there to within reason , for obvious reason , that adapting to what’s in front of me is also par the course .
But the message I always took from that type of training , is to question especially in debrief , what that was about .
Which is pretty much what’s going on now . And whilst when given lemons you have to make lemonade , to not ask why you were given lemons in the first place , is to doom yourself to a never ending cycle of history repeating .
Which is where we are right now .
And once again , no , that doesn’t dismiss the teams own accountability for allowing the lemons to be a variable .

Ive laid out my 'reasoning'.
Once we get better, our reputation will improve.
For instance we'll be able to send 3 blokes into a tackle and not be penalised every time the ball comes free because the refs will believe that our guys dont always rake at the ball. At the moment, even I think they do. We have to review a lot of decisions currently as it is assumed we are in the wrong due to history saying that is usually the case.

As for the refs...I think the game is getting to fast for them to see everything. I am not sure what can be done about that. Should A.I. be employed? I dont know.

 

[Dennisspicer1]

Stef didn't seem to cop much from the crowd

Yep, don't know what some reporters saw, but they reported that the crowd gave him a very nasty welcome last night.
But like most of us, we saw very Little evidence of that, just normal cheering when our team ran on to the field, reporters also said every time commentators mentioned his name the crowd booed.
I watched whole game and the only booing I heard was the normal stuff.
But nothing aimed at Stef.

 

[king_sirro]

Ive laid out my 'reasoning'.
Once we get better, our reputation will improve.
For instance we'll be able to send 3 blokes into a tackle and not be penalised every time the ball comes free because the refs will believe that our guys dont always rake at the ball. At the moment, even I think they do. We have to review a lot of decisions currently as it is assumed we are in the wrong due to history saying that is usually the case.

As for the refs...I think the game is getting to fast for them to see everything. I am not sure what can be done about that. Should A.I. be employed? I dont know.

The decision to go to one ref was diabolical. I said it after about 2 rounds. They miss so much in the ruck as a result. It's simply to big of a job for one ref, even accounting for the 2nd eye of the bunker.

They needed to keep 2 ref's but tweak how it was used. The lead ref must basically ref as they do now, like there isn't a 2nd ref on the field. The 2nd ref is the pocket ref (ruck ref), simply a 2nd pair of eyes watching the ruck.
VLandys ego has ruined the game. The 6 again rule is embarrassing, the game is too fast resulting in more head knocks and the one ref misses way too much in the ruck. All of this is on Vlandys