Save Our Sides Protest Rally - SUN 05FEB11

[batboy]

Well it seems to me the decision/desire by WT to field a single State Cup team under the WT banner has bugger all to do with Balmain. That's my take on it anyway.

It all comes back to costs or more precisely, cutting costs to reduce pressure on the leagues clubs.

In 2010 Balmain Leagues paid the Balmain Football Club $930k, $150k of this amount was required for Wests Tigers so implies $780k for State Cup and junior football. Wests Ashfield paid $150k to Wests Tigers and $600k to Western Suburbs Football Club.

Cut one of the State Cup teams and bring its expense under the Wests Tigers. It is pretty easy to see the cost savings for the Leagues clubs. Given the current financial position of Balmain Leagues, it would be of some relief.

I think you're creating an artificial cause and effect. Sure this decision reduces the financial burden of Balmain Leagues but I'm yet to see any proof that the decision to have one team was made BECAUSE of the financial problems at Balmain. It seems to be the decision has more to do with creating a more streamlined structure that benefits the football operations.

Sssshhhhh…. Your making too much sense Yoss!!
Didn't they tell you it's Balmains fault that Wests Tigers want one State Cup team under the WT banner!!

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Could it not feasibly be considered that Wests Tigers are making a push for further independence (in terms of football operations,) of Wests and Balmain by taking over State Cup and having full control at the semi-professional and professional levels? If they are in full control, they cannot be held back, or to ransom, by either entity?

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

Sssshhhhh…. Your making too much sense Yoss!!
Didn't they tell you it's Balmains fault that Wests Tigers want one State Cup team under the WT banner!!

So why do Wests Tigers want one State Cup team?

 

[Yossarian]

I think you're creating an artificial cause and effect. Sure this decision reduces the financial burden of Balmain Leagues but I'm yet to see any proof that the decision to have one team was made BECAUSE of the financial problems at Balmain. It seems to be the decision has more to do with creating a more streamlined structure that benefits the football operations.

I find it difficult to understand how the financial stress of Balmain Leagues and the streamlining of football operations are not related.

I'm not saying they aren't related, I'm saying one thing didn't cause the other even though the impact of the decision has a flow on effect.

Football operations relate to the running of the football team. Having a tructure that benefits the WT NRL team has consistently been cited as the driving force behind having one state cup team. Not once have I heard Humphreys or Sheens state the reason for doing this was BECAUSE Balmain have money problems.

Yes they have pointed out that cost savings are a BENEFIT from doing this.
No they haven't said it was the REASON for doing this.

 

[innsaneink]

Why waste St Gregs (here we go again)

Innsaneink, the amount of 17 year olds who play 20's in minimal and I hardly think that an 18 yr old in their final year of School would opt to change schools. If WT recruited a 17 yr old kid from the country or out of district who was starting yr 12 then they would have the option to either travel to training from St Gregs or go to Holy Cross with the option of a Scholarship with Pathways at either school where they do year 12 over 2 years.

(What here we go again)….weve discussed this before???
You didnt state your hypothetical scholarship would begin at 17/18.....they can begin from whenever, year 8 or 9...I'll leave you to it

 

[Yossarian]

Sssshhhhh…. Your making too much sense Yoss!!
Didn't they tell you it's Balmains fault that Wests Tigers want one State Cup team under the WT banner!!

So why do Wests Tigers want one State Cup team?

Maybe, just maybe, they want to be like the rest of the NRL and have a single "reserves" team where:

a) Players can be trained/coached/and play in line with the coaching directions from Sheens
b) Players feel they are a part of the WT structure and not outside of it when they play State Cup
c) As pointed out above, WT wants to take direct control of an integral aspect of their football operations rather than outsourcing it to Balmain and Wests

 

[glebe_tiger]

**<big>DT Article - How West was lost</big>**

Paul Kent The Daily Telegraph January 12, 2012 12:00AM
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/how-west-was-lost/story-e6frexnr-1226242159632

SHED a tear for the final demise of the Western Suburbs Magpies and make it heavy on the nostalgia, light on the reality. The truth is the Magpies have been dead since 1999 when the joint venture with Balmain Tigers was first announced, just no one wanted to identify the body.

The Tigers got the better of it then - the Tiger, the predominantly black and gold colours, the ethos - and Magpies officials have always felt more than a little aggrieved because of it. Now news has emerged that the Magpies' NSW Cup team is entering its final season this year, and possibly sooner, bringing to an end a run that goes all the way back to 1908 but seems much longer, on account there hasn't been a lap of honour for more than half of those years.

Since the joint venture the Magpies have been playing in NSW Cup as part of the partnership terms in what was a well-intentioned bid to retain the Western Suburbs and Balmain Tigers identities, but never really came close to doing that.

How many Magpies fans, threatening to now walk away after reading the news yesterday, ever went to see the Western Suburbs Magpies play?

There were more significant concerns yesterday.

The question was rightfully pondered about what the death of the Magpies might do for rugby league in the Greater Western Suburbs - the Campbelltown kind, not the Lidcombe kind - particularly in light of the Godzilla-like threat of that other team marketing itself to the ratepayers of Greater Western Sydney.

Outrage was considered as the first appropriate response before being quickly discarded.

Concern was next, replaced by confusion and ultimately frustration.

Once again, rugby league's incompetency is mostly one of its own doing, and the demise of the Magpies falls directly under that.

For a long while the Wests Tigers headed the partnership of the Wests Leagues Club at Ashfield (which funds the NSW Cup and SG Ball and Harold Matthews rep teams) and Wests Leagues Club at Campbelltown (which supports Wests' entire junior rugby league), which didn't run nearly so smoothly as it sounds.

At best, it was dysfunctional. Indeed, for all the anger shown towards the Wests Tigers' front office, it is hard to believe why they hung on this long. In trying to honour the joint-venture agreement, both NSW Cup clubs suffered, as well as the NRL team.

It continued until Tim Sheens realised more harm than good was being done and declared that rather than split his fringe first-graders between the Magpies and Balmain he would send them all to one club, where they stood a greater chance of helping each other improve. He chose Balmain Ryde Eastwood.

Yet funding them still cost towards $1 million a season. Given NRL clubs like Sydney Roosters, Parramatta, Penrith and Souths have made partnerships with Sydney A Grade clubs such as Wentworthville and Windsor to bring down costs, you can see the cost of honouring the joint-venture agreement made 13 years ago.

Most importantly, rugby league is not abandoning another heartland, as some believe. Not so long ago the Wests junior league merged with Group 6 in a joint A-grade competition that boasted 59 open-age teams.It was strong and vibrant, until internal politics, once again, brought it crashing down. Since then ARL chief executive Geoff Carr has employed troubleshooter Brian Canavan to investigate Group 6's concerns in the hope of getting them back to a combined competition next season.

Mostly, while the Magpies might soon be gone, the players won't be.

"From a development and pathway point of view the game is still developing and the pathways are still there," said NRL development and integration manager Andrew Hill.

It is the price of progress.

<big>**Nobody misses Glebe anymore.**</big>

…thanks Paul.

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

Football operations relate to the running of the football team. Having a structure that benefits the WT NRL team has consistently been cited as the driving force behind having one state cup team.

It has a positive effect for the NRL team and the results have shown this to be true in recent seasons. However, I don't buy it as a rationale for moving to one state team as all NRL contracted players have been playing for one state cup team the past couple of seasons. We could continue with the status quo and still achieve the objective as stated in your post.

Therefore, it comes back to costs. If all contracted players are playing for one state cup team, why are we paying for this second team?

Not once have I heard Humphreys or Sheens state the reason for doing this was BECAUSE Balmain have money problems.

No CEO or coach would be stupid enough to state publicly that a financial partner is under stress. However this is the quote from Humphreys:

"_In my opinion Wests Balmain and Wests Tigers spend an inordinate amount of time, money and effort on the NSW Cup, and I believe we'd all be far better off if some of that time, effort and money was redirected into the junior leagues and junior development programs,_"

That reads to me that it is all about cost. Juniors are a lot cheaper to look after than sub standard first graders!

 

[1_4_chicken_chips]

The only part I don't understand is why did Ashfield prolong it for so long. Why did they keep the lifeline going to the football club for so long ? I can only think of two possible answers:

1\. There was the possibility Balmain would fall over and the licence would go to Wests
2\. Its something they've always done and kept it going for sentimental reasons

It never made any sense why Ashfield would keep sending money to Campbelltown. There's nothing in the constitiution that says they are obliged to do it.

Anyway, finally logic has come to fruition. One I day I hope to see all 4 leagues clubs called Wests Tigers. Also hope to see one WT Football club that replaces the current football clubs and embraces the history and traditions of the Magpies and Balmain.

Then we will be truly one club not a joint venture any longer.

WELL SAID KNUCKLES…

 

[innsaneink]

I like all the talk about doing what is best for Wests Tigers.

So what happens when the day arrives when the best thing for the Wests Tigers is that we play more games at Campbelltown in a season than at Leichhardt???
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What if the best thing for Wests Tigers is that we stop playing at Leichhardt Oval all together.
hey, we could make more money elsewhere. It would be better for the club financially.

Oh no you can't do that! Leichhardt is the spiritual home of the Tigers. It has a proud history.

You can't be beggers and choosers.

Oh wait, you can when the Magpies heritage is at stake.

Sooking it up mate? You do realise this is a Wests Tigers Forum? Of course the majority are talking about what's best for the Wests Tigers… Talking about what's best for Wests Magpies is for your other Forum!

So, to start this thread off you wanted Equality from the Wests Tigers... "we are a 50/50 JV". Now your hoping and dreaming of taking it all to Campbelltown.

It's pretty obvious what your REAL agenda is. And to think we all thought you cared for the kids of the MacArthur region...

Well said Watto, although having said that, if Leichardt got to the state where games could no longer be played there, and Campbelltown was the only option, I'd be ok with that - Because I support the Wests Tigers. **Balmain and Wests are both dead, most people know it, some just refuse to accept it.**

The only people begging here are a couple of Magpies fans who are apparently still living in 1999.

Well no Willow, Thats innacurate…theyre not quite dead.
They played last year...theyre playing this year. Where do you think the Schirnacks, Moors & Mullaneys played?
They may be dead to you...but not others

 

[Yossarian]

Football operations relate to the running of the football team. Having a structure that benefits the WT NRL team has consistently been cited as the driving force behind having one state cup team.

It has a positive effect for the NRL team and the results have shown this to be true in recent seasons. However, I don't buy it as a rationale for moving to one state team as all NRL contracted players have been playing for one state cup team the past couple of seasons. We could continue with the status quo and still achieve the objective as stated in your post.

Therefore, it comes back to costs. If all contracted players are playing for one state cup team, why are we paying for this second team?

You're right - all contracted players go to one team now. The proposal is to having this team be called Wests Tigers not BRET. I've yet to see anyone say Wests Magpies can't run their own team. WT are just saying they will only fund one team and the desire is for it to be called WT.

Not once have I heard Humphreys or Sheens state the reason for doing this was BECAUSE Balmain have money problems.

No CEO or coach would be stupid enough to state publicly that a financial partner is under stress. However this is the quote from Humphreys:

"_In my opinion Wests Balmain and Wests Tigers spend an inordinate amount of time, money and effort on the NSW Cup, and I believe we'd all be far better off if some of that time, effort and money was redirected into the junior leagues and junior development programs,_"

That reads to me that it is all about cost. Juniors are a lot cheaper to look after than sub standard first graders!

That's an outcome of the decision. And they're talking about their own costs (WT) in there too. They're not saying that is the reason for the move merely pointing out a benefit of doing this. Notice he's offering an opinion, HIS opinion. He's not saying WT are doing this because we need to take the pressure off Balmain.

But this is all a smokescreen. Balmain have zero to do with WT wanting to have a single team or for the failure of Wests Magpies to be able to enter a team. WT have stated for some time the desire to have a single (senior) feeder team and for this team to carry the Wests Tigers name. So the single team thing is not caused by Balmain's financial plight, whatever that may be. The inability or unwillingness for Wests Magpies to field a State Cup team is entirely due to Ashfield pulling the money out. Again nothing to do with Balmain.

 

[genoshan]

I also can't see a problem with making another side the feeder club, such as St Geo/Ill did down here. Theyhad the Shellharbour Sharks. Even when Wendell Sailor was coming back from injury he played for them ( biggest crowd they ever had >5000 )

I dunno get East Campelltowns side to be the feeder club and get them promoted to the next teir ?

Even better make it the INgleburn Bulldogs … Or the might minto cobras :slight_smile:

 

[slacko]

In a side note, what's happening with Minto cobras this year? I live near the ground..
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[Goose]

What exactly are the Benefits to the Head Coach and the System of having to work with 2 sets of Reserve Grade staff and Players, Who incidentally… Are opponents in the same competition?

Sorry, I did not see this question in your post(s).

**There is the benefit of having a bigger talent pool**, but from a financial perspective (and my own personal perspective), one second tier team is preferable.

That really depends on ones opinion, there is really no proof to suggest that you actually end up with a bigger talent pool to choose from, particularly if you look at Balmain/BRET and Wests Magpies in relation to any success in the NSWRL competition over the years, more so it could be said that you dilute the talent pool, the reality is many of the players spread between 2 NSW cup sides are not of the quality to ever make any real impression in the NRL and you may ultimately just end up with two weak NSW Cup sides.

You may have a bigger pool to choose from, but not necessarily a bigger talent pool….

that is definately the case. The players they use are always going to be the fulltime squad members. To split up your fulltime players weakens your back up players. You want to put as much quality together as possible, together they improve, the more you dilute them, the less they improve. Lets face it, they are never going to pick a player who cant make your NSW cup side (assuming you have only 1) in NRL, the second side is clearly superfluous.

 

[Goose]

Sssshhhhh…. Your making too much sense Yoss!!
Didn't they tell you it's Balmains fault that Wests Tigers want one State Cup team under the WT banner!!

So why do Wests Tigers want one State Cup team?

Maybe, just maybe, they want to be like the rest of the NRL and have a single "reserves" team where:

a) Players can be trained/coached/and play in line with the coaching directions from Sheens
b) Players feel they are a part of the WT structure and not outside of it when they play State Cup
c) As pointed out above, WT wants to take direct control of an integral aspect of their football operations rather than outsourcing it to Balmain and Wests

That is exactly how I see it.

Also I think it is excellent to become less reliant on Leagues clubs. One of my mates is a CEO of a registered leagues club, although currently not associated with a club directky related to the NRL at the moment his last 2 roles have been, the clubs are no longer the cash cows they once were, moving forward many will not be able to plow the millions into the game they are currently. Many of the club have already pointed this out to the NRLclubs they help fund.

The sooner most NRL clubs stand on their own feet the better.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Sssshhhhh…. Your making too much sense Yoss!!
Didn't they tell you it's Balmains fault that Wests Tigers want one State Cup team under the WT banner!!

So why do Wests Tigers want one State Cup team?

Maybe, just maybe, they want to be like the rest of the NRL and have a single "reserves" team where:

a) Players can be trained/coached/and play in line with the coaching directions from Sheens
b) Players feel they are a part of the WT structure and not outside of it when they play State Cup
c) As pointed out above, WT wants to take direct control of an integral aspect of their football operations rather than outsourcing it to Balmain and Wests

That is exactly how I see it.`

Also I think it is excellent to become less reliant on Leagues clubs. One of my mates is a CEO of a registered leagues club, although currently not associated with a club directky related to the NRL at the moment his last 2 roles have been, the clubs are no longer the cash cows they once were, moving forward many will not be able to plow the millions into the game they are currently. Many of the club have already pointed this out to the NRLclubs they help fund.

The sooner most NRL clubs stand on their own feet the better.

Smartest comment I have read thus far.

WT must be surely looking at funding the team post-leagues club. Sponsorship and creating a singular brand that people within and outside traditional heartlands can identify with and follow.

Any initiative that makes Wests Tigers not reliant on poker machine infused grants I am a fan of. We'd have to be one of the very few clubs that could function without Leagues club support.

If Wests Tigers could solely support themselves, I'd like to see Balmain and Wests agree to step back and provide WT funded supervision over Harold Matts and SG Ball in both regions under both Balmain and Wests banners as well. Both clubs would have to step back but it is to give the one reason they created the JV in the first place a chance to flourish…

 

[Ed_Reschs]

All read Roy masters article in the smh today. The truth is out there. Also a small point there is the comment about juniors for all those knockers who say there is no talent in MacArthur.
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[wtfl1981]

WT is just one of many teams in nsw that may wish to not rely on leagues club monies but the reality is, its how 95% of rugby league teams at all levels are funded. Think mounties, wenty, parramatta, penrith, manly and how reliant sharks are on surviving with leagues club land. Its a positive approach but sadly unrealistic unless blue chip sponsors and big tv dollars close the gap.
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[Tiger_Watto]

WT is just one of many teams in nsw that may wish to not rely on leagues club monies but the reality is, its how 95% of rugby league teams at all levels are funded. Think mounties, wenty, parramatta, penrith, manly and how reliant sharks are on surviving with leagues club land. Its a positive approach but sadly unrealistic unless blue chip sponsors and big tv dollars close the gap.
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NRL Franchises need to generate $20M in revenue to be viable as a business model… Leagues Club can't fund those kind of grants anymore with the new Taxes, and all the future changes to gaming will see there incomes reduced further. Looking away from the Leagues Club funding is the ONLY way forward!

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

NRL Franchises need to generate $20M in revenue to be viable as a business model… Leagues Club can't fund those kind of grants anymore with the new Taxes, and all the future changes to gaming will see there incomes reduced further. Looking away from the Leagues Club funding is the ONLY way forward!

Exactly correct. Leagues clubs funding football clubs was the old model and most NRL clubs are moving away from this model. Some could argue Wests Ashfield were pioneers in this area in the early 80's when they refused Masters requests to pay higher salaries for the team put together in the late 70's.

On Masters, his article today is excellent and not the rubbish put forward by Kent in the Terror. He clearly has better contacts and relationships in Wests Tigers than Kent and has put all the facts on the table.

Balmain: functional directors, dysfunctional leagues club
Wests: dysfunctional directors, functional leagues clubs

No wonder this JV works.