Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

[Lestronge]

Did you forget about Mania Cherrington? He was first. Then it was a stop gap Godinet/McWrillwick after picking Liddle over Cherrington then it was Simpkin over Liddle then yeah the rest is correct.
Though, did we develop Farah to be a quality 9 or was he just a quality 9 to begin with and the best of the bunch?

Nah we have a pipeline with 9s . Mescia- senter , Isaac de gois , cherrington , and on and on … we develop first grade 9s . Even Grant when he came here , talks about how much he learned . It’s the one position we actually can hold our heads high on .

 

[Tucker]

No way. TDS is more like Brandon Smith. Haywood is the one, keep Api till then

TDS is far better and we have put a lot of effort into him. He is next up.
Good on this other kid for playing decent footy in the juniors…maybe that will transform to senior footy and then top level one day.

 

[Chunk]

Let’s Clear a Few Things Up

Firstly, To'a came from Newcastle. He is not a Tigers junior.

Yeah I know, I put Toa in the retention category.

Right now, keeping Api and bringing Tallyn along slowly makes the most sense because, let’s be honest, Api is still the better player.

Really, is Api the better player now? I said 2027. If TDS is still showing improvement and by the the time 2027 comes around, he definitely should be our number 9. And APi paid what he's worth, as a back up. This is a symbol if you like on where we are supposed to be, the Tigers path for success, juniors. TDS is a test

So if we can't keep TDS or he doesn't develop, its a very bad look. Sorry Api, Tigers future first.

About Retention - Let’s Not Rewrite the Story

There’s this narrative going around that we can't hold onto juniors. Let’s take a step back:

Retained Juniors:

Bula
Makasini
Mason
Laulii bros
Pole
Tapau-Moors
Phoenix Godinet

Lost:
Rat boy Galvin

Picked up from other clubs:
Fainu bros
Turuva
To'a

That’s just off the top of my head, and I’m sure there are more in each category.

We’re doing better than people think. Let’s just focus on making the right decisions for the team, not ones driven by outside noise or hypothetical future projections.

Is this a gee up? Are you serious?

Our retention and recruitment has been and still is, one of the worst in the comp.

However, hopefully things seem to be improving

 

[Nonotmeagain]

There are teams in all Leagues I can think of that spend considerable time at or near the bottom ….one i regularly point to are the New York Jets who lurch from one crisis to another and haven’t got near a Championship in over 50 years …and this is in a League with a draft, transparent player wages and an enforced salary cap …the problem is that they have poor owners ( sound familiar ?) ..

Perfect case study

 

[Droppy05]

Perfect case study

Man U another club with poor owners!

 

[pawsandclaws1]

TDS is far better and we have put a lot of effort into him. He is next up.
Good on this other kid for playing decent footy in the juniors…maybe that will transform to senior footy and then top level one day.

Da Silva's manager has made this about Api v his client. Api is one of, if not the best hooker, in the NRL and certainly the best hooker at WTs. The club will make the call. Haywood re-signed with the club until end of 28.

 

[weststigers]

Yeah I know, I put Toa in the retention category.

Really, is Api the better player now? I said 2027. If TDS is still showing improvement and by the the time 2027 comes around, he definitely should be our number 9. And APi paid what he's worth, as a back up.


Is this a gee up? Are you serious?

Our retention and recruitment would has been and still is, one of the worst in the comp.

However, things seem to be improving

Come on mate, I’ve laid out the receipts in black and white. If you’re going to push back, bring something solid to the table.

And yeah, right now Api is clearly the better player. None of us know what 2027 will look like. You’re talking like it’s a guarantee that Tallyn will be the number one hooker by then, but how can anyone say that with certainty? We just don't know yet.

Form, injuries, development. So much can change. Let’s deal with what’s in front of us, not what we hope happens.

 

[clontarfkid]

You're giving him too much credit. It wasn't deliberate, he just f*cked up.

Inexperience + ego

 

[weststigers]

Yes I agree … it’s a joke and works against us most of the time

Actually Tom, I think this is the main issue rather than Api v Tallyn. Whichever side of the coin you are on, you are forced to gamble 18 months out. I think we could agree that both of us would just prefer we could make the call closer to the time.

 

[weststigers]

There are teams in all Leagues I can think of that spend considerable time at or near the bottom ….one i regularly point to are the New York Jets who lurch from one crisis to another and haven’t got near a Championship in over 50 years …and this is in a League with a draft, transparent player wages and an enforced salary cap …the problem is that they have poor owners ( sound familiar ?) ..

I was thinking about this the other day.

Our owners not only argue and embarrass the club perpetually, they don't invest the same as other clubs.

I wonder...a fan led non-profit that sponsored the club - at least we'd have transparency and know where the money went. Then who cares about the owners.

 

[Tom Shines]

There's a bit of assumption involved when we try to predict where Tallyn (or other juniors) will be in a couple of years. Everyone hopes he develops into a top-tier hooker, but that's not something we can bank on just yet. The point is, we don't need to rush a decision based on what might happen. What is the rush to dump Api when you don't have a crystal ball? 2 years is a long time in rugby league.

All I’m saying is we don't need to force a decision on Api just because Tallyn’s coming through. If Api is clearly on the decline and Tallyn overtakes him, then great, the decision sorts itself out.

What I’m cautious about is making a call now based solely on age or the assumption that young players improve in a straight, predictable line. Footy development isn’t always linear, and Api is still performing at a high level. Can't we let the form do the talking? Is Tallyn Da Silva the only hooker in the game? At 20 years old, they are still developing. I don't understand this rush to get them into full-time first grade at 19/20.

Also, just on a club culture thing, Api has earned the absolute right, through his loyalty, his actions on and off the field and ultimately his form to be re-signed. You don't dog a legend for some impatient upstart. Tallyn has done nothing in the game. An extra contract for a guy that makes a huge difference to our team is the least we can do. Let Api go on his own terms like the good clubs do it. As long as he's not letting us down in games.

Interesting …I’ve asked the question 3-4 times now how much longer they think Api will last past 2027 as the No 1 hooker …and no one wants to answer …. 2 more years most likely would be my guess … even that might be pushing it

I’ll be the first to say that Api has been a very rare fine purchase by the club…one of the best in its 25 yr history …. he has even outplayed in monetary terms the contract he was paid …I couldn’t be more respectful about his performance here ..

Having said that, I’m also a realist …. A dumb sounding cliche …but Father Time remains undefeated… Api is headed towards his mid thirties and we should expect a decline at any time …but certainly within 4 years max … Making an assumption “solely on age “ can also be interpreted as playing the percentages … players in their early /mid thirties tend to decline …

TDS has been one of our highly touted juniors ( another one) for a while now… unlike a lot of others ….he has shown some ability already at 20 at the NRL level …

It’s a tough call to make … and blame the dumb rules for forcing them to make it now … I want them to make the call based on which player come 2027 has the best upside… not on sentimentality about what a well paid player has previously given you, or trying to give some young cocky upstart a crack just because of what we have just gone through with Galvin …

 

[rihannafan1]

Did you forget about Mania Cherrington? He was first. Then it was a stop gap Godinet/McWrillwick after picking Liddle over Cherrington then it was Simpkin over Liddle then yeah the rest is correct.
Though, did we develop Farah to be a quality 9 or was he just a quality 9 to begin with and the best of the bunch?

I think Farah was the rare, talented player who actually wanted to be here.

 

[The Chad]

Interesting …I’ve asked the question 3-4 times now how much longer they think Api will last past 2027 as the No 1 hooker …and no one wants to answer …. 2 more years most likely would be my guess … even that might be pushing it

I’ll be the first to say that Api has been a very rare fine purchase by the club…one of the best in its 25 yr history …. he has even outplayed in monetary terms the contract he was paid …I couldn’t be more respectful about his performance here ..

Having said that, I’m also a realist …. A dumb sounding cliche …but Father Time remains undefeated… Api is headed towards his mid thirties and we should expect a decline at any time …but certainly within 4 years max … Making an assumption “solely on age “ can also be interpreted as playing the percentages … players in their early /mid thirties tend to decline …

TDS has been one of our highly touted juniors ( another one) for a while now… unlike a lot of others ….he has shown some ability already at 20 at the NRL level …

It’s a tough call to make … and blame the dumb rules for forcing them to make it now … I want them to make the call based on which player come 2027 has the best upside… not on sentimentality about what a well paid player has previously given you, or trying to give some young cocky upstart a crack just because of what we have just gone through with Galvin …

How long can Api remain elite?

I'd say 2 years is about it. He might still be serviceable beyond that. Hard to say, and as you point out- tough situation to be in.

Almost, a no-win situation.

Don't get me wrong, I want to hold on to TDS.

Put it this way- TDS is a safer bet than Haywood.

But.

Api is a safer bet than TDS.

And we are talking about the NRL 1st grade success over the next couple of seasons. Not winning the comp in 2030.

Certainly not discounting anyone's reservations about losing Da Silva.

But Api is the known tangible.

The others are not.

It's like dumping Luai in order to keep, say, Galvin because Galvin & Latu might be better.

Play what is in front of you. If we lose TDS, continue developing Haywood, add a player from outside & start the search for the guy that pushes Haywood through the juniors.

 

[The Chad]

I think Farah was the rare, talented player who actually wanted to be here.

Farah was the best option at #9 when the time came to make a decision.

They didn't let Darren Senter go because they had Farah in the pipeline for 2 years time.


This is where we are now.

TDS is not better than Api.

 

[Tom Shines]

How long can Api remain elite?

I'd say 2 years is about it. He might still be serviceable beyond that. Hard to say, and as you point out- tough situation to be in.

Almost, a no-win situation.

Don't get me wrong, I want to hold on to TDS.

Put it this way- TDS is a safer bet than Haywood.

But.

Api is a safer bet than TDS.

And we are talking about the NRL 1st grade success over the next couple of seasons. Not winning the comp in 2030.

Certainly not discounting anyone's reservations about losing Da Silva.

But Api is the known tangible.

The others are not.

It's like dumping Luai in order to keep, say, Galvin because Galvin & Latu might be better.

Play what is in front of you. If we lose TDS, continue developing Haywood, add a player from outside & start the search for the guy that pushes Haywood through the juniors.

So basically you want to throw away a kid ( local junior) you have developed and touted a few years now, who might be here another 10:years …all to get 2 more years out of a 34 yr old

 

[The Chad]

So basically you want to throw away a kid you have developed and touted a few years now, who might be here another 10:years …all to get 2 more years out of a 34 yr old

That dumbs down the argument, but playing your way, yes.

Reverse- you want to remove the player arguably the best at the club on the off chance that the guy who hasn't proven himself might one day be better?

 

[Tom Shines]

That dumbs down the argument, but playing your way, yes.

Reverse- you want to remove the player arguably the best at the club on the off chance that the guy who hasn't proven himself might one day be better?

It doesn’t “dumb down” the argument at all …that is what it comes down too…

Api is the best at the club now …he might have fallen off a cliff come 2027 …I’ve seen that happen a lot with 34 yr olds …particularly hookers that rely on a bit of zip over that first 10 yards as one of their main weapons….ill take the kid every time

 

[Oldman]

My genuine question to the ultra pro tds's out there is what makes you as sure as you are that he is a first grade hooker? Genuine question.

I see the odd flash of decent ball running, but I find his defense very poor in regards to first contact (I know that's a lot of our team) he misses a lot of tackles, and his options in attack aren't there IMO. This doesn't mean he won't be a great player, but in my eyes, he hasn't progressed beyond an apprentice yet. I think he needs a season or two to develop but like a lot of youngsters wants his time now.

Hodge
I agree TDS is still learning his trade and isn’t ready yet for long minutes on the field in NRL.
I also must say API’s attacking game is still top notch but his defence is a bit of a worry at times
especially now it looks like benji is leaving him on for 80 min again and not putting TDS in the 17.

By reports I have read said TDS stood out in NSW Cup last week but that doesn’t tell us anything other than he’s to good for that grade, IMO he needs to be in our 17 each week getting 20 minutes getting his game up to scratch for when he is required if API goes down and has to miss games.

 

[weststigers]

Interesting …I’ve asked the question 3-4 times now how much longer they think Api will last past 2027 as the No 1 hooker …and no one wants to answer …. 2 more years most likely would be my guess … even that might be pushing it

I’ll be the first to say that Api has been a very rare fine purchase by the club…one of the best in its 25 yr history …. he has even outplayed in monetary terms the contract he was paid …I couldn’t be more respectful about his performance here ..

Having said that, I’m also a realist …. A dumb sounding cliche …but Father Time remains undefeated… Api is headed towards his mid thirties and we should expect a decline at any time …but certainly within 4 years max … Making an assumption “solely on age “ can also be interpreted as playing the percentages … players in their early /mid thirties tend to decline …

TDS has been one of our highly touted juniors ( another one) for a while now… unlike a lot of others ….he has shown some ability already at 20 at the NRL level …

It’s a tough call to make … and blame the dumb rules for forcing them to make it now … I want them to make the call based on which player come 2027 has the best upside… not on sentimentality about what a well paid player has previously given you, or trying to give some young cocky upstart a crack just because of what we have just gone through with Galvin …

I think Api finishes his contract with us in 2026. Next season.

Another 2 years is probably the limit, but I don't want to go into 2027 with a young guy who's not quite there yet and an even younger guy as the backup. It's specifically this small time period that I worry about.

Overall, you are right. You can't keep extending him forever. His time will come, but the time period we are talking about is the razors edge of that decison. It's not as clear as say, the Klemmer decision.

I think we both understand where we are coming from and perhaps would make different calls. Heck, I'm not even saying going your way wouldn't be the right call to make. I think the difference is in how much risk I'm willing to take vs another and you compromise for Tallyn would be an extra year in waiting. Not much to ask in my opinion, and he'd be getting game time all the same. Players are consistently playing beyond 30. Particularly hookers, halves and props. You're not holding the kid back.

2028, I see Api being the 14 while Tallyn gets his fitness up or vice versa.

Depends how we run in those years. Tallyns issue now is he is a specialist 9, so teams will look for utility value at 14 rather than carry a 9 rotation. This contributes to his lack of game time or else he'd be the 14 for sure. Even Cam Smith could cover halfback in a crisis.

More broadly, most of our players are off contract by 2027 aren't they? We don't really know what the team makeup will be.

 

[The Chad]

It doesn’t “dumb down” the argument at all …that is what it comes down too…

Api is the best at the club now …he might have fallen off a cliff come 2027 …I’ve seen that happen a lot with 34 yr olds …particularly hookers that rely on a bit of zip over that first 10 yards as one of their main weapons….ill take the kid every time

It does dumb it down.

I've already said I'd rather keep him if we can. I'm hardly advocating 'throwing away' a player the way you put it.

But, if it comes down to Api vs TDS & I had to choose- I take Api.

Even your argument against is based on as much conjecture as the argument for letting TDS go.

"He MIGHT have fallen off a cliff come 2027....I've seen it happen a lot with 34 year olds" (quite specific on the age though. 😀

I'd suggest there is as much evidence for 20 year old players not fulfilling potential & exceeding the output of incumbent players to counter it.

I don't WANT to lose TDS. I just don't WANT to lose Api more.