Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

[jirskyr]

Well how stupid is that. You can’t be objective if you’ve met someone?

Not at all. I know people who are close to the club but still maintain their objectivity.

Do you actually know what objective means?

Merriam Webster:
in an objective rather than subjective or biased way : with a basis in observable facts rather than feelings or opinions

Application of facts - provable, public facts. Not speculation, not rumour, not my personal feelings, not hunches.

You'll notice I don't make a lot of arguments for or against the club, but against excessive speculation and what I think is unfounded or unjust criticism.

I am very familiar with the word. Look we don't see eye to eye on things as it pertains to the club. I think the position that we find ourselves in is indefensible, which is why I am perceived as very negative. And it's not just at Madge. I think Pascoe, the board and everyone else is partially responsible. Until we start showing some improvement I will remain negative.

I'm glass half empty, you're glass half full. That's fine.

On that we can agree. Go for it, sack everyone in the name of change and see how it goes.

 

[avocadoontoast]

Well how stupid is that. You can’t be objective if you’ve met someone?

Not at all. I know people who are close to the club but still maintain their objectivity.

Do you actually know what objective means?

Merriam Webster:
in an objective rather than subjective or biased way : with a basis in observable facts rather than feelings or opinions

Application of facts - provable, public facts. Not speculation, not rumour, not my personal feelings, not hunches.

You'll notice I don't make a lot of arguments for or against the club, but against excessive speculation and what I think is unfounded or unjust criticism.

I am very familiar with the word. Look we don't see eye to eye on things as it pertains to the club. I think the position that we find ourselves in is indefensible, which is why I am perceived as very negative. And it's not just at Madge. I think Pascoe, the board and everyone else is partially responsible. Until we start showing some improvement I will remain negative.

I'm glass half empty, you're glass half full. That's fine.

On that we can agree. Go for it, sack everyone in the name of change and see how it goes.

Sounds good to me.

 

[tony soprano]

Cheer up guys we play Souths this week

 

[hobbo1]

Still no news on TPJ?

Can't believe I let myself get excited at the thought.

https://twitter.com/ChrisGarry7/status/1409322953683046400?s=19
BRONCOS BACKFLIP- Lodge and Pangai now going nowhere. They will see out the season with Brisbane. Kev wants stability. The speculation clearly impacting the team.

Pangai clearly didn't want to leave so he's probably happy to stay. If Kevvy wants to keep him we can't do much unless TPJ demands a release

Another swing and a miss. Seems like everyone we declare interest in never joins.

To be fair, did the club declare interest or only this forum?

We flew up there to meet him

He signed a letter of intent ????

Pipe down knuckle head ?
This is serious stuff !

 

[dazza65]

But what annoys me most is I’ve actually met with Pascoe and Hartigan several times in the past 12 months.

Thank you, it all makes sense now.

What makes sense?


thinks youre a club shill....

Well how stupid is that. You can't be objective if you've met someone?

You have a meeting with the local council, now you are in their pocket? You meet with your kid's school teacher, you can't be objective about the school?

What's the argument here? Only by totally lacking contact or direct knowledge of the situation can you hold objectivism? Ridiculous. It would be to say the less information you have the more objective you can be.

BTW I'm not saying you are saying these things.

:+1:

 

[dazza65]

Cheer up guys we play Souths this week

Yee ha - cant wait till Talau gives it to Fatrell......... lol

 

[851]

Cheer up guys we play Souths this week


Yee ha - cant wait till Talau gives it to Fatrell......... lol

If Madge has any idea, which I am not sure he does in the game as we know it now, then Talau will be playing for Wests.
If not, then Madge has no right to utter the word accountability ever again at this club.

 

[compensate]

Hopefully some @THE_POM @CCTW news is on the way. We’re desperate for good news

 

[hsvjones]

Hopefully some @THE_POM @CCTW news is on the way. We’re desperate for good news

Agree..
I wonder if the TPJ thing broke down because of us or them.. Another Media story to come I'm sure to say we lost out and TPJ would prefer to stay there then come here.

 

[TigerTone]

Hopefully some @THE_POM @CCTW news is on the way. We’re desperate for good news

I prefer that the club hurry up and sign whoever they are going to sign cause this forum needs it. Im over hearing news of this and news of that. Just get it done already.

 

[TigerWest]

Certainly some strange developments happening, I guess we’ll get it all sorted out eventually.

Anyway, I hope the search continues?

 

[BZN]

I think Tamou has been pretty disappointing on field. I'm not talking about his leadership or the other intangibles he brings, which i'm sure are very valuable, but as a player I think he's quite a bit off the pace. 82m from a starting front rower isn't good enough imo. He's also been pretty suspect in defence.

It's 82 metres in limited minutes though, Madge keeps him off the field for over half the game normally. His output for the time he's out there is fine

I agree. He's doing exactly what we signed him for - decent first output and leadership qualities, not some rampaging metre-eater that he has possibly never been in his career.

Is Tamou the best prop in the side? I say he is. Alex Twal is a workhorse and some of the other guys have had good stints during the year, but reliable go-forward and defence from the first minute - that's Tamou.

Also Tamou playing in a young and low-success forward pack, not some star-studded pack that share the workload. I don't know how anyone just ignores his role for Penrith last year and the fact that he was both starting prop and captain in an undefeated regular-season side.

Interesting bit of analysis too if you break it down to the concept of minutes. Tamou averages 41.7 minutes per game. Why? Is he really gassed? If he is gassed, is that because he's doing all the hard work? Is it just the coach's strategy and he could go longer? I don't think you can answer any of that without being the coach.

And then the reverse - for players that stay on for long minutes, does their output drop because of the workload toll, and then it becomes another avenue of criticism for what I feel are often pre-conceived ideas. So if a player you are going after plays low minutes "he isn't fit enough" and if he plays high minutes but his output plateaus "he should be having a breather".

Anyway Tamou specifically

* 625 minutes played all season, 15 matches (all starting), 41.7 minutes per game.
* 1244 total run metres, 2.0 metres per minute on-field
* 9 tackle breaks, 0.014 TB per minute
* 117 hitups, average 7.8 hitups, av 0.012 hitups per minute, av. 10.62m per hitup.
* Post-contact metres 463 = 37.2% of his run metres are post-contact.
* 412 tackles, 0.66 tackles per minute, 96.5% efficiency

By comparison to a top-tier prop JWH
* 680 minutes played, 14 matches (8 off the bench), 48.6 min per game. 13.
* 2133 total run metres, 3.1 metres per minute
* 6 tackle breaks, 0.009 TB per minute
* 183 hitups, average 13.1 hitups, av 0.019 hitups per minute, av. 11.66 m per hitup
* PCM 787.8m = 37.3% of run metres
* 422 tackles, 0.62 tackles per min, 92.5% efficiency

So JWH plays more minutes but has started less than half his matches. Makes less tackles per minute and is less efficient in tackles.

Both players make more than 10m per run. JWH makes 1m more but he takes more runs per match (68% more), so his total metres is substantially bigger. JWH makes 1m more ground for every minute he is on the field. Both players make the same amount of post-contact ground for the total ground they make.

Overall therefore JWH starts far less often and makes less tackles, and is less good at defending. But he makes up for that with more run efforts and a little more yardage per run. Even when you take into account minutes played, JWH still makes more ground from more efforts, but he's substantially less likely to bust a tackle.

Now I would say JWH is a better prop than Tamou, no argument, but his output is not so clearly better than you can't wipe Tamou aside without some consideration of context. For example, JWH starts less than half his matches and that must surely impact his ability to increase his minutes by avoiding the early contest.

Tamou also makes his defensive attempts from the outset and at the death (he is on early and late) and is still a better defender than JWH.

A few other comparisons. If the focus is on metres per match for starting props, there are some other comparable outputs from props in the top-tier teams: Jesse Bromwich averages 100m per match, Moses Leota makes 109m, Junior Paulo makes 126m, Junior Tatola 97m, Liam Knight 93m.

Then you have to start asking about some less tangibles - is JWH aided by a superior pack and a superior overall roster? Does he have more "space" to make his runs when Roosters are on top in matches.

Do Tigers forwards in general struggle for metres gained because we lose so many of our matches and several of those losses are hidings? For example can you truly measure the output of a forward in the Melbourne Storm match when we barely touched the football for the first 20 minutes, then the starting props were subbed off?

I think the only thing you can really say, by way of comparison, is Tamou's output is alright, without being horrible. He doesn't make as many metres as a top-level prop, but I don't think that has ever been his role and you need to consider his output in context of the team he plays for and what's being asked of him on the field.

[/QUOTE]

Thank goodness someone sees positivity in what Our Club is aiming to achieve.

 

[cochise]

Finucane outside of the Melbourne system at his age no thanks not for 4 years on that money. He looks good surrounded by good players at the Storm
TPJ stands out in a crap team worth the gamble at the age, we buy him for some xfactor

The info is he leads the standards of those players around him, maybe they look good because of the standards he sets.

he has very good players around him, not the case here
bad Signing over 4 years, 2 years ok not 4

I don't want him for 4 either and I don't want him at $800k

 

[ElleryHanley]

Finucane outside of the Melbourne system at his age no thanks not for 4 years on that money. He looks good surrounded by good players at the Storm
TPJ stands out in a crap team worth the gamble at the age, we buy him for some xfactor

The info is he leads the standards of those players around him, maybe they look good because of the standards he sets.

he has very good players around him, not the case here
bad Signing over 4 years, 2 years ok not 4

I don't want him for 4 either and I don't want him at $800k

It is hard as you need to offer something to get that first bloke across the line...he has played seven grand finals and is the ultimate pro. You need 'something' extra to convince a bloke to give up that to fight for 8th spot and rebuild a club.

4 years at 800 and he rebuilds our culture = a bargain.

4 years at 800 and his body breaks down after tons of battles = a disaster.

It is a tough one.

 

[earl]

**Debate erupts over signing that could ‘transform’ Tigers; Raiders ‘keen’ on half: Transfer Whispers**

The Wests Tigers are in the mix to sign Melbourne Storm forward Dale Finucane but there are doubts over one of the terms his manager is after.
Finucane is off-contract at the end of the season and while Melbourne is keen to keep him, the reality is he may be squeezed out.
Fox League’s James Hooper reported on Friday that the Tigers are preparing to go all-in on Finucane.
Speaking on Triple M on Sunday, Hooper added that Finucane’s manager is currently looking for four years for his client - causing a debate on whether he was worth the Tigers pursuing on that kind of deal.
“For where they are as a club and what they require, he is the type of circuit-breaker signing that could completely transform the joint,” Hooper said.
Gorden Tallis though was not convinced a long-term deal was the right move.
“I don’t think there is much left in the orange,” he said.
“That’s because he’s played every week and that’s why you want him. But Melbourne wouldn’t be letting him go. Their roster management is unbelievable. They probably know he has 12 months of good footy and then he is on the other side.
“When you squeeze the orange and play how he does, there is a moment it all slows down.”
Hooper saw merit in that argument but went further to explain that the Tigers have little choice at the moment.
“I agree but for the Wests Tigers and where they are at, they need something different,” he said.
“I’m not saying sign him. I know he’s closer to the end than the beginning but you don’t sign him for what he can do on the field, you sign him for everything he brings to the organisation from the professionalism, the habits, the one-percent areas he teaches the rest of the dressing room.
“They’re in... they’re going to have a crack. They’re not going to go crazy and bend their salary cap out of proportion. The Tigers should be prepared to go further than other clubs will. They’re going to have to pay overs.”
Fox League’s Paul Kent though warned the Tigers have to “go in with caution”, adding “there is no silver bullet” that will immediately solve all their problems.

4 years? No chance.

Nofo just got that.

 

[earl]

Finucane outside of the Melbourne system at his age no thanks not for 4 years on that money. He looks good surrounded by good players at the Storm
TPJ stands out in a crap team worth the gamble at the age, we buy him for some xfactor

The info is he leads the standards of those players around him, maybe they look good because of the standards he sets.

he has very good players around him, not the case here
bad Signing over 4 years, 2 years ok not 4

I don't want him for 4 either and I don't want him at $800k

I'd love him here but when these numbers are mentioned it's such a high risk signing. The game isn't won by players like Finucane any more.

 

[BZN]

Finucane outside of the Melbourne system at his age no thanks not for 4 years on that money. He looks good surrounded by good players at the Storm
TPJ stands out in a crap team worth the gamble at the age, we buy him for some xfactor

The info is he leads the standards of those players around him, maybe they look good because of the standards he sets.

he has very good players around him, not the case here
bad Signing over 4 years, 2 years ok not 4

I don't want him for 4 either and I don't want him at $800k

It is hard as you need to offer something to get that first bloke across the line...he has played seven grand finals and is the ultimate pro. You need 'something' extra to convince a bloke to give up that to fight for 8th spot and rebuild a club.

4 years at 800 and he rebuilds our culture = a bargain.

4 years at 800 and his body breaks down after tons of battles = a disaster.

It is a tough one.

Then being 50/50 about a player is not enough to get him to Wests Tigers imo.

 

[earl]

Finucane outside of the Melbourne system at his age no thanks not for 4 years on that money. He looks good surrounded by good players at the Storm
TPJ stands out in a crap team worth the gamble at the age, we buy him for some xfactor

The info is he leads the standards of those players around him, maybe they look good because of the standards he sets.

he has very good players around him, not the case here
bad Signing over 4 years, 2 years ok not 4

I don't want him for 4 either and I don't want him at $800k

It is hard as you need to offer something to get that first bloke across the line...he has played seven grand finals and is the ultimate pro. You need 'something' extra to convince a bloke to give up that to fight for 8th spot and rebuild a club.

4 years at 800 and he rebuilds our culture = a bargain.

4 years at 800 and his body breaks down after tons of battles = a disaster.

It is a tough one.

It's too high risk. That is how you got to look at it. Is the risk worth it. We've just bet on JTJ and BJ but those risk were time boxed and haven't impacted us long term.

There is no way a club like ours should take that risk.

We shouldn't sign players on culture or leadership or anything like that either. We should be signing tackle busts, offloads, try assists, tackle efficiency etc.

 

[avocadoontoast]

**Debate erupts over signing that could ‘transform’ Tigers; Raiders ‘keen’ on half: Transfer Whispers**

The Wests Tigers are in the mix to sign Melbourne Storm forward Dale Finucane but there are doubts over one of the terms his manager is after.
Finucane is off-contract at the end of the season and while Melbourne is keen to keep him, the reality is he may be squeezed out.
Fox League’s James Hooper reported on Friday that the Tigers are preparing to go all-in on Finucane.
Speaking on Triple M on Sunday, Hooper added that Finucane’s manager is currently looking for four years for his client - causing a debate on whether he was worth the Tigers pursuing on that kind of deal.
“For where they are as a club and what they require, he is the type of circuit-breaker signing that could completely transform the joint,” Hooper said.
Gorden Tallis though was not convinced a long-term deal was the right move.
“I don’t think there is much left in the orange,” he said.
“That’s because he’s played every week and that’s why you want him. But Melbourne wouldn’t be letting him go. Their roster management is unbelievable. They probably know he has 12 months of good footy and then he is on the other side.
“When you squeeze the orange and play how he does, there is a moment it all slows down.”
Hooper saw merit in that argument but went further to explain that the Tigers have little choice at the moment.
“I agree but for the Wests Tigers and where they are at, they need something different,” he said.
“I’m not saying sign him. I know he’s closer to the end than the beginning but you don’t sign him for what he can do on the field, you sign him for everything he brings to the organisation from the professionalism, the habits, the one-percent areas he teaches the rest of the dressing room.
“They’re in... they’re going to have a crack. They’re not going to go crazy and bend their salary cap out of proportion. The Tigers should be prepared to go further than other clubs will. They’re going to have to pay overs.”
Fox League’s Paul Kent though warned the Tigers have to “go in with caution”, adding “there is no silver bullet” that will immediately solve all their problems.

4 years? No chance.

Nofo just got that.

Please don't remind me.

 

[Telltails]

Finucane outside of the Melbourne system at his age no thanks not for 4 years on that money. He looks good surrounded by good players at the Storm
TPJ stands out in a crap team worth the gamble at the age, we buy him for some xfactor

The info is he leads the standards of those players around him, maybe they look good because of the standards he sets.

he has very good players around him, not the case here
bad Signing over 4 years, 2 years ok not 4

I don't want him for 4 either and I don't want him at $800k

I'd love him here but when these numbers are mentioned it's such a high risk signing. The game isn't won by players like Finucane any more.

It's got the Adam Blair feel about it.