Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

gregjm87 said:
Of all the clubs, not sure how Dogs come under scrutiny for a 'sombrero'.
They would have the cheapest 1 and 7 (Sezer aside) in the game. A largely unheralded forward pack outside of Kikau which typically features 2 first year rookies every week. And there big money centre and wing is balanced by Xerri bought on the cheap after his drug ban and Kiraz who they got after he wasn't offered a contract at Knights.
There'd be a dozen clubs I'd question before the Dogs. Though I'd admit outside looking in perhaps they got away with some shenanigans with Jackson early retirement and Pangai walking away, however no evidence of any actual wrong doing.
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I think the issue is that only a really, really dumb club would outright cheat the cap now in the sense of doing the type of thing the Storm did a decade or so back - two sets of books or similar. What will be far more prevalent is things like when players conveniently walk away from massive contracts "coincidentally" at exaclty the moment the club decides they're no longer providing value. Jackson and TPJ at the Dogs, Inglis at Souths, so many names it's almost laughable at the Roosters.

Clubs like the Tigers pay a brutal price for signing bad deals (and, by virtue of being bad, more or less have to sign bad deals to get players - we always have to offer the extra year or the extra $200k a year to get any free agents over the line) whereas clubs like the Roosters just seem to have bad contracts evaporate on them. When we try to do the same, we get a two year cap penalty for suggesting a club legend might get a job at the club after he retires.

It's a rigged system and it's not going to change while the likes of Nick Politis have the game's administration and media in their back pockets. What it means is that there's simply no way we're going to "win" via the free agent market, or at least not as the primary means of building a roster. It has to be through development. We're starting from the pit lane with every free agent signing, and the poor contracts we have to offer to get anyone here are precisely the thing that keeps us uncompetitive down the track. The only answer is to do what Penrith did - and Canberra to a lesser extent: just keep churning out kids.
 
crazycat said:
Bateman was roumered to have said that Benji treats the Senior players like Juniors and the Junior players like Seniors...

I don't know if this is true, but it is far past the time Richo gets an exit strategy for Benji. I am hoping that Benji can be moved to coach New Zealand for a few years... I really REALLY hope we are not going to try Benji with Luai and the rest next year. We don't need 6-9 months of coming 17th for another year to see this isn't working.
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Luai only came because of Benji, that will work well
 
Eternal Tiger said:
He is an arm grabber. His defensive effort(or lack of) vs Cronulla was pathetic. He struggled to get a hand on Mulitalo or Iro.
What he's come back from is irrelevant to me, he was a poor defender before his last injury.
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While I also find Douehi's comeback commendable given his time off, I agree that his defensive issues are still a major concern.

Teams are intentionally targeting him because his weaknesses are so evident. This not only exposes his flaws but also creates gaps in the defensive line, leading to potential overlaps and holes that opponents exploit.
 
2041 said:
I think the issue is that only a really, really dumb club would outright cheat the cap now in the sense of doing the type of thing the Storm did a decade or so back - two sets of books or similar. What will be far more prevalent is things like when players conveniently walk away from massive contracts "coincidentally" at exaclty the moment the club decides they're no longer providing value. Jackson and TPJ at the Dogs, Inglis at Souths, so many names it's almost laughable at the Roosters.

Clubs like the Tigers pay a brutal price for signing bad deals (and, by virtue of being bad, more or less have to sign bad deals to get players - we always have to offer the extra year or the extra $200k a year to get any free agents over the line) whereas clubs like the Roosters just seem to have bad contracts evaporate on them. When we try to do the same, we get a two year cap penalty for suggesting a club legend might get a job at the club after he retires.

It's a rigged system and it's not going to change while the likes of Nick Politis have the game's administration and media in their back pockets. What it means is that there's simply no way we're going to "win" via the free agent market, or at least not as the primary means of building a roster. It has to be through development. We're starting from the pit lane with every free agent signing, and the poor contracts we have to offer to get anyone here are precisely the thing that keeps us uncompetitive down the track. The only answer is to do what Penrith did - and Canberra to a lesser extent: just keep churning out kids.
Click to expand...
This is a more sensible take. I did note that there did appear to be something suspicious around the convenient retirements. But there is no way of proving any wrong doing and every bit as likely to be coincidence as it is actual wrong doing. Even in the case of the Roosters, yes they can move on unwanted players with relative ease but most of their players are in demand, whereas most of ours (or at least the ones we want to move on) are not. So again them moving on surplus players isn't overly suspicious.

I largely agree that the system is flawed and leads to a cycle of bad contracts however i don't necessarily agree that it is Politis and a few power brokers ensuring it continues. Other clubs (dogs, sharks, eels) have shown that you can recruit your way out of the cycle. The junior path of the Panthers is not the only way, though likely the most sustainable. Our club however has repeatedly made bad football decisions beyond just the recruitment and retention of the first grade side. The merry go round of coaches, hiring and firing list managers, neglected pathways (until recently) all as consequential as simply poor R and R.
 
Eternal Tiger said:
He is an arm grabber. His defensive effort(or lack of) vs Cronulla was pathetic. He struggled to get a hand on Mulitalo or Iro.
What he's come back from is irrelevant to me, he was a poor defender before his last injury.
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He's come back from three knee reconstructions so he is not lacking in courage. Perhaps it is a mix of hesitancy with the knee and lack of application. Either way, he is a leader and our players look up to him so he needs to work hard to improve his defence.
 
There are a lot of accusation on the forum related to coaching on both sides of the coin - those for and those against. Take the results off the table as an indicator - we have the most inexperienced team and 90% of our experienced players, by their own admission, are underperforming. Is that a coaching issue or is it a roster combination issue much the same as we saw with the Dogs last year?

If we are looking at results as an indicator - until a few weeks ago Des Hasler had the Titans in a battle for the spoon with us. Titans have a significantly better and more experienced roster. The Parrasite had a very experienced coach and a roster full of internationals that have gone from permiship contenders to fighting us for the spoon in two years. O'Brien at the Knights had one fot out of the door and couldn't coach last year - thinkgs have gone quiet now even though the Knights aren't setting the workd on fire. Siebold at the Broncos couldn't coach to save himself - but no resurected at Manly.

I'm not close enough to the club or the playing group to be able to make a worthwhile assessment of the performance of our coaching staff. I did note last week that we were unable to put into practice foundation level defensive practices that were being rehearsed immediately prior to kick off. Does that mean we aren't adequately coached or that the players are coming through deficient in base level skills or is it simply that we are trying to change so much at once that concentration is poor?

The evidence suggests that we can execute a good kick chase, we have demonstrated that we can strip sides for numbers, we have plenty of times matched it with oppositon forward on both sides of the pill. The issue is that we don't do it consistently and at NRL level when you drop off in intensidty is cost you dearly (just ask LL).

I don't enter into the debate on how well we are coached because I simply can't offer an informed opinion. However, you can see potential when it does click. Is there anyone close enough to the playing/coaching staff that can provide any insight as to the quality of our coaching?

Are we playing the long strategic game, understanding that it will be rocky, and blooding the young ones early because our roster is so shallow or, as many on here believe, are our caching staff shit? If so what evidence is there of this. Don't point out on field performance as this could be a reult of a number of issues.

Here is one example - Stef. His game dropped off the cliff at the same time we started his contract negotiations. He was still a bit of a pillow prior to that but then he just dropped off the cliff. Is it coaching? or does Stef struggle to compartmentalise the game from his potential future? or is he showing a lack of resilience (something that would be great to know given we have offered big $ for him to remain)?

From what I see from the outside Benji appear to have no problems calling a spade a spade, but I don't think he is a Des/Bellamy type that sprays players and teams. He appears to be the type to have a tense but quiet chat one on one, which is why the JB story seems odd.

Here are some others to contemplate:
  • lack of discipline across the board: poor coaching, poor attitude or is it a result of trying too hard and being frustrated?
  • poor kick chase from week to week and within the same game: poor coaching, lack of fitness, lack of resilience orpoor concentration?
  • Poor defence: poor coaching, underdeveloped combinations, poor players decision makers or lack of trust?
What is my opinion? We are light on for coaching experience but the root cause of our problems is that we lack the cohesion, experience and a true game manager to play with momentum that suits us. As a result the terms of the game are dictated to us and we simply react. That's a combination of a lack of experience (youth) and a lack of direction from our senior players (Sezer/Api) more than the coaching staff.

So what evidence or source based arguments do you have that support your assessment that Benji and Co can, or can't, coach?
 
Just some solid dependable first graders would be nice to complement our (few) stars and lots of young players with potential
Hopgood, Wilton, Tass, not necessarily them but those types are what I reckon would help
Campbell Graham I thought until I saw he’s locked up by Souths for another 3 years at $850k per season 😳
 
Jolls said:
There are a lot of accusation on the forum related to coaching on both sides of the coin - those for and those against. Take the results off the table as an indicator - we have the most inexperienced team and 90% of our experienced players, by their own admission, are underperforming. Is that a coaching issue or is it a roster combination issue much the same as we saw with the Dogs last year?

If we are looking at results as an indicator - until a few weeks ago Des Hasler had the Titans in a battle for the spoon with us. Titans have a significantly better and more experienced roster. The Parrasite had a very experienced coach and a roster full of internationals that have gone from permiship contenders to fighting us for the spoon in two years. O'Brien at the Knights had one fot out of the door and couldn't coach last year - thinkgs have gone quiet now even though the Knights aren't setting the workd on fire. Siebold at the Broncos couldn't coach to save himself - but no resurected at Manly.

I'm not close enough to the club or the playing group to be able to make a worthwhile assessment of the performance of our coaching staff. I did note last week that we were unable to put into practice foundation level defensive practices that were being rehearsed immediately prior to kick off. Does that mean we aren't adequately coached or that the players are coming through deficient in base level skills or is it simply that we are trying to change so much at once that concentration is poor?

The evidence suggests that we can execute a good kick chase, we have demonstrated that we can strip sides for numbers, we have plenty of times matched it with oppositon forward on both sides of the pill. The issue is that we don't do it consistently and at NRL level when you drop off in intensidty is cost you dearly (just ask LL).

I don't enter into the debate on how well we are coached because I simply can't offer an informed opinion. However, you can see potential when it does click. Is there anyone close enough to the playing/coaching staff that can provide any insight as to the quality of our coaching?

Are we playing the long strategic game, understanding that it will be rocky, and blooding the young ones early because our roster is so shallow or, as many on here believe, are our caching staff shit? If so what evidence is there of this. Don't point out on field performance as this could be a reult of a number of issues.

Here is one example - Stef. His game dropped off the cliff at the same time we started his contract negotiations. He was still a bit of a pillow prior to that but then he just dropped off the cliff. Is it coaching? or does Stef struggle to compartmentalise the game from his potential future? or is he showing a lack of resilience (something that would be great to know given we have offered big $ for him to remain)?

From what I see from the outside Benji appear to have no problems calling a spade a spade, but I don't think he is a Des/Bellamy type that sprays players and teams. He appears to be the type to have a tense but quiet chat one on one, which is why the JB story seems odd.

Here are some others to contemplate:
  • lack of discipline across the board: poor coaching, poor attitude or is it a result of trying too hard and being frustrated?
  • poor kick chase from week to week and within the same game: poor coaching, lack of fitness, lack of resilience orpoor concentration?
  • Poor defence: poor coaching, underdeveloped combinations, poor players decision makers or lack of trust?
What is my opinion? We are light on for coaching experience but the root cause of our problems is that we lack the cohesion, experience and a true game manager to play with momentum that suits us. As a result the terms of the game are dictated to us and we simply react. That's a combination of a lack of experience (youth) and a lack of direction from our senior players (Sezer/Api) more than the coaching staff.

So what evidence or source based arguments do you have that support your assessment that Benji and Co can, or can't, coach?
Click to expand...

Good post. We will win today
 
gregjm87 said:
This is a more sensible take. I did note that there did appear to be something suspicious around the convenient retirements. But there is no way of proving any wrong doing and every bit as likely to be coincidence as it is actual wrong doing. Even in the case of the Roosters, yes they can move on unwanted players with relative ease but most of their players are in demand, whereas most of ours (or at least the ones we want to move on) are not. So again them moving on surplus players isn't overly suspicious.

I largely agree that the system is flawed and leads to a cycle of bad contracts however i don't necessarily agree that it is Politis and a few power brokers ensuring it continues. Other clubs (dogs, sharks, eels) have shown that you can recruit your way out of the cycle. The junior path of the Panthers is not the only way, though likely the most sustainable. Our club however has repeatedly made bad football decisions beyond just the recruitment and retention of the first grade side. The merry go round of coaches, hiring and firing list managers, neglected pathways (until recently) all as consequential as simply poor R and R.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the roosters and dogs have support that can easily provide outside the cap, as shown by the intended share of pubs by their sponsor that was on face value stopped, but how can anyone know without a whistle blower
 
gregjm87 said:
This is a more sensible take. I did note that there did appear to be something suspicious around the convenient retirements. But there is no way of proving any wrong doing and every bit as likely to be coincidence as it is actual wrong doing. Even in the case of the Roosters, yes they can move on unwanted players with relative ease but most of their players are in demand, whereas most of ours (or at least the ones we want to move on) are not. So again them moving on surplus players isn't overly suspicious.

I largely agree that the system is flawed and leads to a cycle of bad contracts however i don't necessarily agree that it is Politis and a few power brokers ensuring it continues. Other clubs (dogs, sharks, eels) have shown that you can recruit your way out of the cycle. The junior path of the Panthers is not the only way, though likely the most sustainable. Our club however has repeatedly made bad football decisions beyond just the recruitment and retention of the first grade side. The merry go round of coaches, hiring and firing list managers, neglected pathways (until recently) all as consequential as simply poor R and R.
Click to expand...
I'm sure at this point in time all of us would swap places with Parra, but it's not a model of 'success' I want to follow: a brief spell near the top followed by a rapid collapse back to spoon contention as the chickens come home to roost with the big contracts you've handed out. The Bulldogs look to be on the same trajectory to me, albeit they are on the up side of it.

I wouldn't class the Sharks as a team that's built its success on free agency: they've made some astute signings but a lot of that team is home grown. I can only really think of Hynes and McInnes as players they've signed that were being heavily chased elsewhere - maybe there are others but it's not as if they're picking off the top of the market year after year. In fact, I'd say it's having good depth in the ranks that gives them flexibility to pick up the free agents that will make a real difference.

TBF the Tigers are so bad and (ought to) have so much cap room that they can afford to bring in a bunch of free agents and get better. But we've tried that before, twice: the Packer/Reynolds crop and the Klemmer/Koroisau crop. It didn't work either time. Meanwhile, the best team the comp has had for 20 years is sat there as a clear example of how an unfashionable club can reinvent itself by investing in youth. It seems pretty obvious which way we ought to be going.

What I dread is getting to the point where we're just starting to turn the corner with some of the kids we have contributing, then the extensions come due and we can't afford them because we're still paying Klemmer, Bateman and whatever desperation signings we might make in the next six months. Seeing Galvin in a Souths jersey because we've given a bag to the corpse of Nelson Asofa-Solomona would just about do me.
 
Roar_Power said:
I have no doubt Benji will be there next year with Morris and a newly appointed (and more experienced) second assistant coach. There is no way the club is going to create more coaching upheaval, especially with Luai's intro to the club.

There will definitely be recruitment movement in the offseason. people on here keep citing the ''off contract'' players but it will be contracted players who become available as clubs manage their salary caps. I reckon our side will continue to strengthen with these new acquisitions.
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We can only hope.
 
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