The ''re-buiding phase''

[GNR4LIFE]

Fairdinkum, you forget to take into account that there is a difference between the beginning of the Sheens era and now, and that is at present, no one has been bought to compliment the juniors like in 03-04\. The juniors can't do it all on their own.

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

Took Wests close to 8 years to rebuild in the 1980's after the debacle of 1983\. Even when they moved to Campbelltown in 1987, it took 4 years before the age groups of the local football clubs reached first grade standard. Taylor being an initial product making his debut aged 18 in 1990 and they made the finals in 1991 (with some additional recruiting).

Moral of the story….rebuilding does take a lot of time and this current phase of rebuilding probably did not get going in earnest until Marshall left. Probably also need Farah to leave to finish the process.

 

[Tiger_In_The_Gong]

It needed to be renovated not re-built.

Thats the thing im most critical of JT for.

A lot of the re-building is to take the pressure off the coach, to buy him time so to speak.

If we had of thrown the same level of support and stricture behind the previous coach and just extended on the post Sheens changes that were already starting to take effect ie the Tapau, Ava, Gavet and Sue type bench we would be in a stronger position at this point in time.

Instead we have taken a massive gamble on everything falling into place in a year or two.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

As unfathomable as it is to think about for some people, what if the guys we're investing in a yr or 2 down the line show no improvement? We don't seem like we have a lot of options with having no money

 

[batboy]

As unfathomable as it is to think about for some people, what if the guys we're investing in a yr or 2 down the line show no improvement? We don't seem like we have a lot of options with having no money

- Not taking into account the 5 Years that we have been sitting on our hands waiting for them to come through.
McDonnell told a mate of mine more than 5 years ago, Brooks was the only halfback in the clubs ranks/plans…

 

[WTDiehard]

It seems like the Tigers ( Balmain & Wests ) spend most of their existence in a rebuilding phase.

Look at Manly….they constantly have players going and almost always make the semi's each year. If they miss out on the odd occasion it is very rare..........we on the other hand only make the semi's on the rare occasion.

Some clubs are born winners , some clubs are born strugglers , it all comes down to the culture of the club. Some clubs donot accept "not winning"......others seem to even if they deny it.

Bad club Management, rewarding average players with big contracts, paying overs for average players, and rewarding coaches with extended contracts that come to bite club back on the bum are not good practices for clubs that want SUCCESS.

And as for player retention....the form 5/8 of the competition and form winger were both allowed to leave the club in 2014\. Not smart at all. Talk about sinking your own boat.

Lets hope that this so called "re-build" has strong foundations for a change.

 

[stevetiger]

As unfathomable as it is to think about for some people, what if the guys we're investing in a yr or 2 down the line show no improvement? We don't seem like we have a lot of options with having no money

I don't agree that the lack of money is the issue. There is a salary cap and there doesn't appear to be too many clubs rorting the system.

I also think we've bought good players that have complimented us. The issue is will Brooks, Moses, Sironen or some other players really kick on. I suppose we will find out.

One thing about Brooks and Moses is that neither of them has looked like Robbie or Benji when they came into first grade. I think Brooks and Moses both look like really good players and possibly future stars however Robbie and Benji were immensely skilled with the ability to win us games straight away.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

As unfathomable as it is to think about for some people, what if the guys we're investing in a yr or 2 down the line show no improvement? We don't seem like we have a lot of options with having no money

I don't agree that the lack of money is the issue. There is a salary cap and there doesn't appear to be too many clubs rorting the system.

I also think we've bought good players that have complimented us. The issue is will Brooks, Moses, Sironen or some other players really kick on. I suppose we will find out.

One thing about Brooks and Moses is that neither of them has looked like Robbie or Benji when they came into first grade. I think Brooks and Moses both look like really good players and possibly future stars however Robbie and Benji were immensely skilled with the ability to win us games straight away.

That's a good observation

 

[Flippedy]

It seems like the Tigers ( Balmain & Wests ) spend most of their existence in a rebuilding phase.

Look at Manly….they constantly have players going and almost always make the semi's each year. If they miss out on the odd occasion it is very rare..........we on the other hand only make the semi's on the rare occasion.

Some clubs are born winners , some clubs are born strugglers , it all comes down to the culture of the club. Some clubs donot accept "not winning"......others seem to even if they deny it.

Bad club Management, rewarding average players with big contracts, paying overs for average players, and rewarding coaches with extended contracts that come to bite club back on the bum are not good practices for clubs that want SUCCESS.

And as for player retention....the form 5/8 of the competition and form winger were both allowed to leave the club in 2014\. Not smart at all. Talk about sinking your own boat.

Lets hope that this so called "re-build" has strong foundations for a change.

You're right about club cultures - Manly are a great example of a club that refuses to lose, no matter what is going on. Look at them now beginning to climb the ladder again after an awful start. They lost a lot of good players this year, their key playmakers have signed with other clubs for next season, the media is full of reports of unrest within the club, with the coach etc. Despite all this, I believe that Manly will make the 8 this year. If that was happening at WT, we would hit bottom and stay there, as was evident through what happened to us at the back end of last season.

There is no doubting that some clubs just have a winning mentality/culture all the time, while others are either happy with mediocrity or they unwittingly accept losing more than winning. My question is - can that be changed? Because all attempts to usher in a consistent winning culture at this club have failed miserably, so far.

 

[Doc_Tiger]

I don't think it will change in a hurry. I think the point made above a few posts up re. Farah needing to move on to complete the re-building process is really accurate as well. There's a lot of money tied up there which I guess is deserved given his history in terms of cataincy and on-field performances, but I question whether those dollars over the next few years are good value given his impact nowadays. Is it right to pay for things of the past?

 

[tsjonathan]

I also think we've bought good players that have complimented us. The issue is will Brooks, Moses, Sironen or some other players really kick on. I suppose we will find out.

One thing about Brooks and Moses is that neither of them has looked like Robbie or Benji when they came into first grade. I think Brooks and Moses both look like really good players and possibly future stars however Robbie and Benji were immensely skilled with the ability to win us games straight away.

From memory Robbie played about 3 games in 03 (19 years old) then didn't do much until 2005 (21 years old) where he was a regular and carved up from dummy half.

 

[Newtown]

I hope that by the time we finish our re-building it isn't time to merge with another club.

 

[pHyR3]

That's absoloutely true. They are unproven in first grade however they are proven in all other grades. Just because they are young doesn't mean they will be good but it doesn't mean they will be bad either.

Time will tell. We are only judging them on what they have done in the lower grades as 20 first grade games to me is not enough.

How many games did Miller get???
He had the same type while in reserves

lol no he didnt, not even close. people on here got perhaps a little carried away but he offered good potential to help out benji and get him back to top form. thats about it. and given benji needed a controlling half and miller was pretty average and still quite young it didnt work out.

There was plenty of posters here who were constantly almost begging for him to go up.

yeah sure, calling for a promotion. but he hasnt received even close to the same hype as moses, teddy and brooks.

 

[WTDiehard]

I don't think it will change in a hurry. I think the point made above a few posts up re. Farah needing to move on to complete the re-building process is really accurate as well. There's a lot of money tied up there which I guess is deserved given his history in terms of cataincy and on-field performances, but I question whether those dollars over the next few years are good value given his impact nowadays. Is it right to pay for things of the past?

Robbie is a class player, but he is nowhere near the player he was say 5 years ago. He has been around for a decade, won a premiership, played SOO & for Australia and he is now in his early 30's. He is no longer dynamic from dummy half and at times I see him playing for the PENALTY too much ( catching others offside, pretending to trip over players on the ground…basically gamesmanship ) he just no longer has that killer instinct. Yes, he will make his 40-50 tackles a game, but as our leader and most experienced player I expect so much more from him to help the young side along.

I understand he cannot do everything but maybe if he made 15 tackles less a game he could spend more energy on getting our attack and structures moving forward. After all attack is the best form of defence....especially for the Tigers.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

I also think we've bought good players that have complimented us. The issue is will Brooks, Moses, Sironen or some other players really kick on. I suppose we will find out.

One thing about Brooks and Moses is that neither of them has looked like Robbie or Benji when they came into first grade. I think Brooks and Moses both look like really good players and possibly future stars however Robbie and Benji were immensely skilled with the ability to win us games straight away.

From memory Robbie played about 3 games in 03 (19 years old) then didn't do much until 2005 (21 years old) where he was a regular and carved up from dummy half.

He had a knee reco in 04 irrc

 

[TrueTiger]

It seems like the Tigers ( Balmain & Wests ) spend most of their existence in a rebuilding phase.

Look at Manly….they constantly have players going and almost always make the semi's each year. If they miss out on the odd occasion it is very rare..........we on the other hand only make the semi's on the rare occasion.

Some clubs are born winners , some clubs are born strugglers , it all comes down to the culture of the club. Some clubs donot accept "not winning"......others seem to even if they deny it.

Bad club Management, rewarding average players with big contracts, paying overs for average players, and rewarding coaches with extended contracts that come to bite club back on the bum are not good practices for clubs that want SUCCESS.

And as for player retention....the form 5/8 of the competition and form winger were both allowed to leave the club in 2014\. Not smart at all. Talk about sinking your own boat.

Lets hope that this so called "re-build" has strong foundations for a change.

You're right about club cultures - Manly are a great example of a club that refuses to lose, no matter what is going on. Look at them now beginning to climb the ladder again after an awful start. They lost a lot of good players this year, their key playmakers have signed with other clubs for next season, the media is full of reports of unrest within the club, with the coach etc. Despite all this, I believe that Manly will make the 8 this year. If that was happening at WT, we would hit bottom and stay there, as was evident through what happened to us at the back end of last season.

There is no doubting that some clubs just have a winning mentality/culture all the time, while others are either happy with mediocrity or they unwittingly accept losing more than winning. My question is - can that be changed? Because all attempts to usher in a consistent winning culture at this club have failed miserably, so far.

Flip,totally agree with you about winning culture…..the only point I will make is,the WTs have always seen Benji and Robbie as the culture,if they had bad days the club had bad days,if they came under scrutiny in the media for what ever reason,the club came under scrutiny...now do you see a pattern and what must change,part of it has moved on...

We are the WESTS TIGERS, the whole team must want to play in a winning culture and start embedding that culture now while we have good positive change...

Don't get me wrong,I admire Robbie as our captain and the player he has been,however he gets paid to play NRL as the hooker for WTs....not politics,leave that to the Board and Management....albeit he seems to have improved greatly in that area...

I hope these young "GUNS" start producing that winning culture,so we the supporters can see what it feels like again to be involved in a happy,prosperous and harmonious club....cheers...

 

[fairdinkum]

Fairdinkum, you forget to take into account that there is a difference between the beginning of the Sheens era and now, and that is at present, no one has been bought to compliment the juniors like in 03-04\. The juniors can't do it all on their own.

(The recruitment drive happened in 04/05 not 03/04)
\
\
I did take this into account, i just didn't spell it out. Its what im eluding to here -

"Sheens took on a pretty poor roster in 2003 that featured stars such as Withers, O'Halloran, NBQ, Wozniak, Trindall, and Beuttner. He had his 1 year grace period in 2003 to rebuild 'his' team for the following year. **Something Taylor should have the chance to do this year and capitalize on his tenure in 2016/17.**"

Taylor has this year to sort out his plan and put up with the roster Potter handed over ala what Sheens got in 2003\. Its now up to Taylor to buy 4 or more experienced players (ala 2004/2005) over the next 2 years to go with Robbie, Patty, Halatau, Keithy as the old heads and get it gelling with the youngsters.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Fairdinkum, you forget to take into account that there is a difference between the beginning of the Sheens era and now, and that is at present, no one has been bought to compliment the juniors like in 03-04\. The juniors can't do it all on their own.

(The recruitment drive happened in 04/05 not 03/04)
\
\
I did take this into account, i just didn't spell it out. Its what im eluding to here -

"Sheens took on a pretty poor roster in 2003 that featured stars such as Withers, O'Halloran, NBQ, Wozniak, Trindall, and Beuttner. He had his 1 year grace period in 2003 to rebuild 'his' team for the following year. **Something Taylor should have the chance to do this year and capitalize on his tenure in 2016/17.**"

Taylor has this year to sort out his plan and put up with the roster Potter handed over ala what Sheens got in 2003\. Its now up to Taylor to buy 4 or more experienced players (ala 2004/2005) over the next 2 years to go with Robbie, Patty, Halatau, Keithy as the old heads and get it gelling with the youngsters.

Sheens still made signings at the start of 03\. Trindall, Beuttner and Robert Miles. He was more active then Taylor

 

[TrueTiger]

GNR,was he more active than Taylor because he had funds available,seems JT doesn't…..

 

[fairdinkum]

Fairdinkum, you forget to take into account that there is a difference between the beginning of the Sheens era and now, and that is at present, no one has been bought to compliment the juniors like in 03-04\. The juniors can't do it all on their own.

(The recruitment drive happened in 04/05 not 03/04)
\
\
I did take this into account, i just didn't spell it out. Its what im eluding to here -

"Sheens took on a pretty poor roster in 2003 that featured stars such as Withers, O'Halloran, NBQ, Wozniak, Trindall, and Beuttner. He had his 1 year grace period in 2003 to rebuild 'his' team for the following year. **Something Taylor should have the chance to do this year and capitalize on his tenure in 2016/17.**"

Taylor has this year to sort out his plan and put up with the roster Potter handed over ala what Sheens got in 2003\. Its now up to Taylor to buy 4 or more experienced players (ala 2004/2005) over the next 2 years to go with Robbie, Patty, Halatau, Keithy as the old heads and get it gelling with the youngsters.

Sheens still made signings at the start of 03\. Trindall, Beuttner and Robert Miles. He was more active then Taylor

30 year old Prop, Trindall debut in 02 under Lamb. Miles was signed up under Lamb the year before. Sheens did buy an aged Beuttner who manged to stay on the field for about 15 games over 2 years. Either way, a recruitment drive of one headed by a very average play maker in Beuttner whos best years were behind him (see Anasta's career) aint very much active in the signing department. I would further argue that after only 9 rounds, Taylors one signing of Naiqama trumps all 3 of those guys anyways.