The WT Identity

[Lauren]

Can't seem to reply directly sorry @twentyforty.
No I'm as miserable as any other supporter just don't get why we can continue to beat this dead horse.

We're not the only basket case in the NRL is my point.
Our best asset is our junior pathways and until their success blossoms into first grade, we urgently need better quality recruits.

IDRC for the accuracy of it.
We watched this all unfold ourselves and shouldn't need someone else to bring it to our attention.
I've read many of a good post on the forum raise the same facts he's stated. So for me, he's pretty much used our historical challenges to influence the reader. It's clever and all but it's still totally subjective.
It's such a shame we're only an easy sell in the media.

Spot on @lauren, it also allowed old dinosaurs to **raise their excuses again of it not being their fault and shift the blame.**

This is the same way I saw it and can now see where the culture of unaccountability was born.
It's essentially just covering up the errors.

 

[twentyforty]

Can't seem to reply directly sorry @twentyforty.
No I'm as miserable as any other supporter just don't get why we can continue to beat this dead horse.

We're not the only basket case in the NRL is my point.
Our best asset is our junior pathways and until their success blossoms into first grade, we urgently need better quality recruits.

IDRC for the accuracy of it.
We watched this all unfold ourselves and shouldn't need someone else to bring it to our attention.
I've read many of a good post on the forum raise the same facts he's stated. So for me, he's pretty much used our historical challenges to influence the reader. It's clever and all but it's still totally subjective.
It's such a shame we're only an easy sell in the media.

Yes Lauren there's a fault in the refreshing.
LOL we are all down about the last decade, its such a shame the movers and shakers in the club didn't share the same grief. As long as Pascoe continues to say he's not fazed, then I'll remain indifferent to any accurate media criticism which goes part way to calling out the poor performance of our decision makers.
This game tomorrow will give us an idea of what next season could be like. I'm guessing WT is at least a season ahead of Bulldogs in rebuilding, with both clubs trotting out vastly inexperienced players 1-17.
WT Average Age = 24, Average Games= 72.
Bulldogs Average Age = 24, Average Games= 61.

 

[cochise]

Can't seem to reply directly sorry @twentyforty.
No I'm as miserable as any other supporter just don't get why we can continue to beat this dead horse.

We're not the only basket case in the NRL is my point.
Our best asset is our junior pathways and until their success blossoms into first grade, we urgently need better quality recruits.

IDRC for the accuracy of it.
We watched this all unfold ourselves and shouldn't need someone else to bring it to our attention.
I've read many of a good post on the forum raise the same facts he's stated. So for me, he's pretty much used our historical challenges to influence the reader. It's clever and all but it's still totally subjective.
It's such a shame we're only an easy sell in the media.

Spot on @lauren, it also allowed old dinosaurs to **raise their excuses again of it not being their fault and shift the blame.**


This is the same way I saw it and can now see where the culture of unaccountability was born.
It's essentially just covering up the errors.

Only person in that article taking ownership for their actions is Woods.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Can't seem to reply directly sorry @twentyforty.
No I'm as miserable as any other supporter just don't get why we can continue to beat this dead horse.

We're not the only basket case in the NRL is my point.
Our best asset is our junior pathways and until their success blossoms into first grade, we urgently need better quality recruits.

IDRC for the accuracy of it.
We watched this all unfold ourselves and shouldn't need someone else to bring it to our attention.
I've read many of a good post on the forum raise the same facts he's stated. So for me, he's pretty much used our historical challenges to influence the reader. It's clever and all but it's still totally subjective.
It's such a shame we're only an easy sell in the media.

Spot on @lauren, it also allowed old dinosaurs to **raise their excuses again of it not being their fault and shift the blame.**


This is the same way I saw it and can now see where the culture of unaccountability was born.
It's essentially just covering up the errors.

Only person in that article taking ownership for their actions is Woods.

Ain’t it a coincidence he doesn’t have a contract.

 

[Lauren]

Can't seem to reply directly sorry @twentyforty.
No I'm as miserable as any other supporter just don't get why we can continue to beat this dead horse.

We're not the only basket case in the NRL is my point.
Our best asset is our junior pathways and until their success blossoms into first grade, we urgently need better quality recruits.

IDRC for the accuracy of it.
We watched this all unfold ourselves and shouldn't need someone else to bring it to our attention.
I've read many of a good post on the forum raise the same facts he's stated. So for me, he's pretty much used our historical challenges to influence the reader. It's clever and all but it's still totally subjective.
It's such a shame we're only an easy sell in the media.

Yes Lauren there's a fault in the refreshing.
LOL we are all down about the last decade, its such a shame the movers and shakers in the club didn't share the same grief. As long as Pascoe continues to say he's not fazed, then I'll remain indifferent to any accurate media criticism which goes part way to calling out the poor performance of our decision makers.
This game tomorrow will give us an idea of what next season could be like. I'm guessing WT is at least a season ahead of Bulldogs in rebuilding, with both clubs trotting out vastly inexperienced players 1-17.
WT Average Age = 24, Average Games= 72.
Bulldogs Average Age = 24, Average Games= 61.

Sorry hope I'm not coming off as defensive, with you. I'm a little relieved knowing our season is coming to an end tbh, so any frustration is with the timing of the article.
Chammas could have atleast had the common courtesy to wait until after tomorrow's game ?

 

[WT2K]

Shaz trying to return 🤔

 

[jirskyr]

Well, @jirskyr, I stand corrected. But I still don't get it. Their resolve and tenacity and support of each other is amazing. If that's not based on a Roosters culture and narrative, then how do you explain it? And, why isn't every club like that?

You give me Uncle Nick, hand back Tedesco, sign up some premiership-winning forwards and centres, rep wingers and two wiley old try-scoring machines and I'll give you a Wests Tigers to be reckoned with.

I'd be much much much more impressed if Roosters achieved the resolve and tenacity with half the talent at their disposal.

But of course that's not to say it's just players that do the job - Titans can't manage it with a fairly handsome roster at times. Thing about Titans is there is no "wile", no depth and no real success experience.

@jirskyr I'm always intrigued by your statistical knowledge of the game but even moreso your attention to detail when breaking down Wests Tigers performances.
So given the changes to the game over the last couple of years and the evolution of the WTs, have you ever actually done a multivariate analysis to determine what our different/distinctive playing styles have been? Also what components would ultimately decide this, it can't all be tactical as we've basically plateaued for a decade despite making changes.

Where are we actually going good is what I'd like to know and how can we turn things around or use it to our advantage?

No I have not done a multivariate analysis.

What I think however is the "old" Tigers were always attack-focused and had a once-in-generation crop of juniors that were very attack-minded - Marshall, Farah, Fulton, Lawrence, then signings like Prince, Tuiaki, Ellis. Sheens has always been innovative but never really managed to put steel into the side, and we always struggled against big strong teams.

It makes sense that the new coaches post-Sheens would always make efforts to put more steel / starch into the Tigers, but again our next boom generation were attack focused - Tedesco, Moses, Brooks, Woods, Simona, Nofo. You will recall Moses and Brooks were basically Top 3 for missed tackles for several seasons.

Fast forward to 2021, the current coach will tell you he's been hamstrung by the decisions made during Ivan Cleary's time - loss of key juniors, short-term high-cost signings that have impacted the salary cap. He's also failed to get any kind of consistency out of the roster he has. The new focus on junior talent is barely 12 months old and it will take time for that strategy to pay off.

I personally don't think there's much to it - we score points, arguably enough points (currently 9th in the league, just behind Sharks), but our defence and ability to hold under pressure stinks. I don't think anyone knew the 6-again rules were coming or with such effect as to penalise teams that can't hang tough, and Tigers have never really managed to put together a side that can regularly tough out wins. The solution is line speed and initial contact, and there's nothing magic about it. We usually have enough size now in the forwards, but our line speed sucks and initial contact in the tackle is very average. Net result is we start to loose the ruck, the opposition gets a sniff of dominance, they start chancing their hand more and their ball control improves, Tigers wilt rather quickly. I don't know if I've seen us tough out and over-turn a result all year.

 

[jirskyr]

Also interesting to note this decision from 20 odd years ago

“From the very first board meeting, it was determined that the future of the club was in the south-west corridor, specifically in the Macarthur region,” says Martin Bullock, the Wests Tigers’ first chief executive.

So it appears a decision was made about an identity. One can only sit here and shake you head.

Well that's coming from Martin Bullock, who was an appointee from Wests and is still a director at Wests Leagues Leumeah. I wonder if the Balmain side of the JV remember it the same way.

 

[jirskyr]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/a-crisis-of-identity-the-real-tales-from-tiger-town-20210827-p58mm6.html

Picking over the scabs of our past, hopefully whatever lessons that were there to be learnt have been. But also hopefully whatever is media axe grinding in this article and all others out there is ignored.

I thought that was a good article, if tragic. Hope the club learns something.

This is a great article. Not clickbait or emotive but just a reasonable catalogue of the mistakes that most of us have watched the club make from the outside and shook our heads. Most readers probably don’t know the history like we do and just think we are a useless club when I reality we are not a useless club we have been let done by a series of mistakes dating back to our inception. We are a laughing stock today. The average rugby league fans views as a joke despite clubs like the bulldogs having won about 2 games in 2 years. We are perceived as a basket case but I think that we have actually moved on, we were a basket case 5 or 6 years ago but we are moving on and we just need the club leadership to stick on this path, support the coach, the recruitment staff and the players. And we need a bloody home ground to call our own. We don’t need to convince everyone else about our identity. We just need a home ground where these young players can play week in week out and win, create a culture and a reputation and an identity of their own.

Honestly it is too superficial to be of any value.

It's like a Cliff's Notes summary of Tigers for non-fans.

 

[jirskyr]

That's a fantastic article from Chammas, not sure what the complains are about. There's no bias no rubbish opinions just pure fact about the failings of our club over the last 21 years

It's hard to read but it's all true and if the bad decisions don't get talked about things will never change, and they haven't. Found the quotes from Taylor and Pearce very interesting too

There is a lot of bias in this article.

I don't see it, everything he stated in the article is true the club is a joke. If we are gonna have articles bashing the club having one like this is a million times better than the same old articles from fox sports and "look at who they let go" and all that rubbish.

Everyone quoted is protecting their own interest and their role in the situation by pushing the blame onto someone else. Only one person in the entire article takes any responsibility and that is Woods.

100%. It's an article chock-full of people covering their arse.

 

[jirskyr]

Excellent article. Don’t see how anyone could have an issue with it.

Where the article on all the other crap teams

No one else has missed out on finals for 10 years. We deserve these articles and I hope it prompts change of some kind.

And Pascoe should be kept away from the football department. What a disaster.

You see what happens when a Coach ie Voldemort is given full control of the football department and salary cap… that is what I call a disaster

The buck should stop with Hartigan. He should have control with input from the coach and sheens.

Hartigan is a myth too.

Disagree with you there. His ability to identify talent is very good, his issue is he’s with an undesirable club with a coach that’s a deterrent. He’s got a tough gig

Lol

It’s true, the young guys we’ve signed have been our best. The guys we’ve gone after but missed were good too. I concede the signings of Tamou and BJ were very poor though.

Coach isn't the problem.

Why the board re-sign madge those losers in front office have always been the issue and want you to believe it's the coach.

Of course he’s the problem. He can’t adapt his coaching style to the players he has. He’s too one dimensional.

He has a crap squad. Not he's fault the club blew their cap on crap players. Honestly when is someone apart from the coach going to take accountability.

Lee says he hasn't got bang for buck for his investment, well stuff you Mr gagget go back to brydens where you belong you little man. Look at the shit squad you left madge with. Just keep sacking coach after coach after coach .

I want to see accountability elsewhere before the coach for once.

Except for the fact when he was employed he stated he could work with the roster we had. Now apparently it is because he couldn't overturn the roster? Just another person defending their role in this article. At least Woods is man enough to take responsibility.

Well.. show me a head coach candidate who says they cannot work with the current roster, during the interview process?

 

[jadtiger]

Well, @jirskyr, I stand corrected. But I still don't get it. Their resolve and tenacity and support of each other is amazing. If that's not based on a Roosters culture and narrative, then how do you explain it? And, why isn't every club like that?

You give me Uncle Nick, hand back Tedesco, sign up some premiership-winning forwards and centres, rep wingers and two wiley old try-scoring machines and I'll give you a Wests Tigers to be reckoned with.

I'd be much much much more impressed if Roosters achieved the resolve and tenacity with half the talent at their disposal.

But of course that's not to say it's just players that do the job - Titans can't manage it with a fairly handsome roster at times. Thing about Titans is there is no "wile", no depth and no real success experience.

@jirskyr I'm always intrigued by your statistical knowledge of the game but even moreso your attention to detail when breaking down Wests Tigers performances.
So given the changes to the game over the last couple of years and the evolution of the WTs, have you ever actually done a multivariate analysis to determine what our different/distinctive playing styles have been? Also what components would ultimately decide this, it can't all be tactical as we've basically plateaued for a decade despite making changes.

Where are we actually going good is what I'd like to know and how can we turn things around or use it to our advantage?

No I have not done a multivariate analysis.

What I think however is the "old" Tigers were always attack-focused and had a once-in-generation crop of juniors that were very attack-minded - Marshall, Farah, Fulton, Lawrence, then signings like Prince, Tuiaki, Ellis. Sheens has always been innovative but never really managed to put steel into the side, and we always struggled against big strong teams.

It makes sense that the new coaches post-Sheens would always make efforts to put more steel / starch into the Tigers, but again our next boom generation were attack focused - Tedesco, Moses, Brooks, Woods, Simona, Nofo. You will recall Moses and Brooks were basically Top 3 for missed tackles for several seasons.

Fast forward to 2021, the current coach will tell you he's been hamstrung by the decisions made during Ivan Cleary's time - loss of key juniors, short-term high-cost signings that have impacted the salary cap. He's also failed to get any kind of consistency out of the roster he has. The new focus on junior talent is barely 12 months old and it will take time for that strategy to pay off.

I personally don't think there's much to it - we score points, arguably enough points (currently 9th in the league, just behind Sharks), but our defence and ability to hold under pressure stinks. I don't think anyone knew the 6-again rules were coming or with such effect as to penalise teams that can't hang tough, and Tigers have never really managed to put together a side that can regularly tough out wins. The solution is line speed and initial contact, and there's nothing magic about it. We usually have enough size now in the forwards, but our line speed sucks and initial contact in the tackle is very average. Net result is we start to loose the ruck, the opposition gets a sniff of dominance, they start chancing their hand more and their ball control improves, Tigers wilt rather quickly. I don't know if I've seen us tough out and over-turn a result all year.

Good assessment

 

[twentyforty]

Can't seem to reply directly sorry @twentyforty.
No I'm as miserable as any other supporter just don't get why we can continue to beat this dead horse.

We're not the only basket case in the NRL is my point.
Our best asset is our junior pathways and until their success blossoms into first grade, we urgently need better quality recruits.

IDRC for the accuracy of it.
We watched this all unfold ourselves and shouldn't need someone else to bring it to our attention.
I've read many of a good post on the forum raise the same facts he's stated. So for me, he's pretty much used our historical challenges to influence the reader. It's clever and all but it's still totally subjective.
It's such a shame we're only an easy sell in the media.

Yes Lauren there's a fault in the refreshing.
LOL we are all down about the last decade, its such a shame the movers and shakers in the club didn't share the same grief. As long as Pascoe continues to say he's not fazed, then I'll remain indifferent to any accurate media criticism which goes part way to calling out the poor performance of our decision makers.
This game tomorrow will give us an idea of what next season could be like. I'm guessing WT is at least a season ahead of Bulldogs in rebuilding, with both clubs trotting out vastly inexperienced players 1-17.
WT Average Age = 24, Average Games= 72.
Bulldogs Average Age = 24, Average Games= 61.

Sorry hope I'm not coming off as defensive, with you. I'm a little relieved knowing our season is coming to an end tbh, so any frustration is with the timing of the article.
Chammas could have atleast had the common courtesy to wait until after tomorrow's game ?

Exactly, his timing seemed to hitchhike on the back of Wild Wests, we could have done with a break ?

 

[Tiger Woods]

Who are who are who are we ?
Hahaha the tigers have forgotten their identity

 

[Lee's fedora]

Should we rebrand the club start a new with a new logo , updated jerseys a fresh new look?

 

[Demps]

Should we rebrand the club start a new with a new logo , updated jerseys a fresh new look?


 

[Lee's fedora]

Should we rebrand the club start a new with a new logo , updated jerseys a fresh new look?


>
ITS PERFECT

 

[twentyforty]

Should we rebrand the club start a new with a new logo , updated jerseys a fresh new look?


Demps this orangutan learned spear fishing from watching. Anything is possible.
 https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkVV8M2m2UeLhMHFbfag9YT0Iudmj8ulcXe-x8s9VtDnYT_kLXKRqKckrx&s=10

 

[Magpie_Magic]

Yeh bruh our identity is gone. I mean like why we playing 3 balmain, 3 Cambo and then 4 at Bankwest. We need a home ground I know it’s farfectched but I think the club should back Liverpool. It’s roughly in the middle and our growth area is southwest. It has a station connecting to cambo and toward leichardt area at central and concord. We could really make it our own if we do share with wsw or MacArthur fc . The stadium needs to be ours though so know bulldogs sharing. I know Liverpool is surrounded by dogs territory but if we can just take over Liverpool we can make it our own
Somewhat like south’s have done with homebush

Dogs will make a play for liverpool we will be second fiddle there like we are at bankwest

Liverpool is Bulldogs territory. Always has been.

Actually it belongs to the Magpies and now the WT.

Remember as a kid hearing Peter Moore on some radio talk back show with Ray Warren I think and saying Canterbury was looking at Liverpool then.
But remember in 1986 when the League was trying to boot Wests out for the 3rd time in 5 years Moore was on of the delegates on the NSWRL board and in a deal with Rick Wayde the deal was Moore was vote for Wests retention in the competition providing they play at Campbelltown and give most of their juniors to the dogs the rest going to Balmain as well as Rick helping set up Lasers disco at Canterbury leagues (in the process fame nightclub at Wests Ashfield went downhill).

The deal included Liverpool.

For whats it worth we must protect our claim because going forward if one thinks whats our identity well look at the dogs with their demographic change. Won't be long before it affects their supporter and juniors fan base so they may try to muscle this back especially now that Gould is there.
He cares little for our club.

 

[mike]

Yeh bruh our identity is gone. I mean like why we playing 3 balmain, 3 Cambo and then 4 at Bankwest. We need a home ground I know it’s farfectched but I think the club should back Liverpool. It’s roughly in the middle and our growth area is southwest. It has a station connecting to cambo and toward leichardt area at central and concord. We could really make it our own if we do share with wsw or MacArthur fc . The stadium needs to be ours though so know bulldogs sharing. I know Liverpool is surrounded by dogs territory but if we can just take over Liverpool we can make it our own
Somewhat like south’s have done with homebush

Dogs will make a play for liverpool we will be second fiddle there like we are at bankwest

Liverpool is Bulldogs territory. Always has been.

Actually it belongs to the Magpies and now the WT.

Remember as a kid hearing Peter Moore on some radio talk back show with Ray Warren I think and saying Canterbury was looking at Liverpool then.
But remember in 1986 when the League was trying to boot Wests out for the 3rd time in 5 years Moore was on of the delegates on the NSWRL board and in a deal with Rick Wayde the deal was Moore was vote for Wests retention in the competition providing they play at Campbelltown and give most of their juniors to the dogs the rest going to Balmain as well as Rick helping set up Lasers disco at Canterbury leagues (in the process fame nightclub at Wests Ashfield went downhill).

The deal included Liverpool.

For whats it worth we must protect our claim because going forward if one thinks whats our identity well look at the dogs with their demographic change. Won't be long before it affects their supporter and juniors fan base so they may try to muscle this back especially now that Gould is there.
He cares little for our club.

Yeah, nah. It’s Bulldogs. The Bulldogs know it, the NRL knows it, and the media knows it. Perception is reality, as people keep telling me on this forum.