There really is a God

[Goose]

This.thread reminds me of a story that Andre Agassi put in his book about getting angry that Michael Chang thought that God would want Chang beat him.

 

[TIGER]

By its own definition this thing people refer to as god is a logical contradiction therefore cannot exist or absolutely useless, take your pick.

If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, Then he is not omnipotent.
If he's able, but not willing, Then he is malevolent.
If he's both able and willing, Then he is evil.
If he's neither able nor willing, Then why call him god?

This sounds so smart but fortunately it is flawed. It's the kind of thing I would have quoted a decade ago before exploring the topic with people who could help me through the journey. It's what I hung to when I wanted to reject God.

God grants free will to all of us. Once he lives our lives for us then why would we exist? He would just do our important existing for us.

Imagine the pain he must feel watching me make terrible decisions on a weekly basis. Yet he loves me so much he lets me be me. Yet when I truly trust him and pray sometimes he does intervene. I trust he knows when too and when not too intervene.

Boil all our great and horrible choices down and you are left with the essence of the human condition: do I believe? God has left me with this choice. He hasn't obviously over played his hand and in doing so removed my choice, he has consistently been there when I have sort him.

I have never found him through chasing the apple (humanly knowledge) though I have tried. I have only found him in my heart, in prayer and in seeing him work in my life when I opened up to him.

Please believe what you will. I am just sharing my perspective. Go the Tigers.

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You are just asserting god and asserting this god somehow creates things and grants them free will, how about you start proving something is there first before you talk about what it can do/does. And no you haven't demonstrated a flaw, the free will argument doesn't solve the problem of evil. If God can't intervene and prevent evil because it might violate our free will then it has to drop at least one of its tags of omnipotence omniscient or omnibenevolence, then what use is it as a god?

Q Who decided that death is the punishment for sin?
A God
Q Who then sends his son/self to be sacrificed to save us from that punishment?
A God

So your worshiping and thanking god for saving you from the punishment that it itself made up and was going to deliver to you.
Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

It's like thanking an abusive spouse for 'not' beating you up.

 

[fairdinkum]

By its own definition this thing people refer to as god is a logical contradiction therefore cannot exist or absolutely useless, take your pick.

If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, Then he is not omnipotent.
If he's able, but not willing, Then he is malevolent.
If he's both able and willing, Then he is evil.
If he's neither able nor willing, Then why call him god?

This sounds so smart but fortunately it is flawed. It's the kind of thing I would have quoted a decade ago before exploring the topic with people who could help me through the journey. It's what I hung to when I wanted to reject God.

God grants free will to all of us. Once he lives our lives for us then why would we exist? He would just do our important existing for us.

Imagine the pain he must feel watching me make terrible decisions on a weekly basis. Yet he loves me so much he lets me be me. Yet when I truly trust him and pray sometimes he does intervene. I trust he knows when too and when not too intervene.

Boil all our great and horrible choices down and you are left with the essence of the human condition: do I believe? God has left me with this choice. He hasn't obviously over played his hand and in doing so removed my choice, he has consistently been there when I have sort him.

I have never found him through chasing the apple (humanly knowledge) though I have tried. I have only found him in my heart, in prayer and in seeing him work in my life when I opened up to him.

Please believe what you will. I am just sharing my perspective. Go the Tigers.

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You are just asserting god and asserting this god somehow creates things and grants them free will, how about you start proving something is there first before you talk about what it can do/does. And no you haven't demonstrated a flaw, the free will argument doesn't solve the problem of evil. If God can't intervene and prevent evil because it might violate our free will then it has to drop at least one of its tags of omnipotence omniscient or omnibenevolence, then what use is it as a god?

Q Who decided that death is the punishment for sin?
A God
Q Who then sends his son/self to be sacrificed to save us from that punishment?
A God

So your worshiping and thanking god for saving you from the punishment that it itself made up and was going to deliver to you.
Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

It's like thanking an abusive spouse for 'not' beating you up.

check mate

 

[Geo]

So who do we have to thank or blame for winning the Comp in 2005 again… 😕

 

[TIGER]

Religious texts did not fall from the sky, they were written by men, edited by men, translated

But they were not inspired by men.

Did you know that that creation story in the Bible sets out the exact order in which our universe was created?

It wasn't until thousands of years later that scientists were able to work this out themselves.

Now you tell me what the mathematic possibility is that a bunch of desert Jews, without the scientific assistance of even a magnifying glass, would be able to predict the exact order in which the universe was created some 4,000 years ago?

Almost impossible I would say.

Because science has yet to nail down everything, does not mean goddidit.

**By the same token, it does not mean that He didn't do it.\
\
That's the whole premise of this debate… There are a lot of large gaps concerning such great mysteries, that people fill using solutions that they feel most comfortable with.**

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"By the same token, it does not mean that He didn't do it. (WHAT THE F?)

That's the whole premise of this debate… There are a lot of large gaps concerning such great mysteries, that people fill using solutions that they feel most comfortable with"
\
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And that ends the conversation fellow atheists. You can not talk logic to people (the religious) that are simply not open to logical thinking.

Theists are not interested in the **truth**, as demonstrated in the quote above. Theists just want to feel warm and fuzzy and cherry pick certain parts of their religion that fits their point of view.

To the logical rational people on this forum, we can clearly see there has never been a sound reason whatsoever put forward by a theist to demonstrate the existence of any of the thousands of deities of any sect of any cult that currently exists or existed throughout human history.

As an atheist I actually care about the truth.

To say you have to have "faith" is the weakest thing a theist could ever say, they are forfeiting the debate as soon as they say that. Essentially a theist is saying "yes, i know i have no evidence, no logical, rational reason to believe in this thing that was made up but if you close your eyes and wish really really hard you can make it true, you just have to switch of that part of the brain that controls logic and reason, now open your eyes....wallah"

There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" Thats what strives the human race to advancement, to find answers. To say "I don't know, therefore god" is just mind blowing and deeply concerning to somebody that actually cares about reality.

It's very frustrating isn't it, hopefully in our lifetime this infantile mindset loses its grip on people because as long as people go on believing in magical sky daddies and celestial real estate agents people will commit atrocities against each other over who's invisible friend is more powerful and who's promised them what piece of land. Wake up.

 

[hobbo]

So who do we have to thank or blame for winning the Comp in 2005 again… 😕

Sheens !

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[happy_tiger]

So who do we have to thank or blame for winning the Comp in 2005 again… 😕

Fitzy of course

 

[Geo]

So who do we have to thank or blame for winning the Comp in 2005 again… 😕

Sheens !

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So God then… :wink:

 

[happy_tiger]

So who do we have to thank or blame for winning the Comp in 2005 again… 😕

Sheens !

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So God then… :wink:

Arthur Fonzarelli

 

[hobbo]

Even God can't help the Wests Tigers …. Hell , we even have a Moses and were still a basket case :laughing:

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[Abraham]

1: How do you know they were not inspired by anyone other than men? and I'm not just talking about the Christian Bible here, there are hundreds of other religious texts talking about other religions.

2: Which genesis account are you talking about? there are 2 different versions in the Bible. In any event I don't see how the biblical story sets it out in the exact order, at this stage, there's nothing too concrete in regards to the creation of the universe.

So, can you explain exactly what you mean by exact order?

Genesis 1:1-2:3

As I said, it's pretty amazing that this was accurately recorded in the Old Testament.
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Again, the onus is on the person making the claim. Using the God of Gaps argument is a fallacy and making oneself comfortable with the idea of a deity does not make it fact.

I'm not making a positive claim here, if science doesn't know, then it doesn't know.

No, their is no 'onus'.

I dnt need to prove to you or anybody else why I believe there is a God.

Just like you don't need to 'prove' to me there is no God, if that's your opinion.

There are many reason why I, and billions of others around the world, believe in God. In many cases it's a personal matter and does not need to be justified to anybody.

What I do find funny however is people who say there is no proof of God (not necessarily pointing the finger at you), then go on to talk about big bangs and the such as proof that God did not create life. The Big Bang theory is called a theory for a reason, because it cannot be proven either.

This is such a wide ranging topic that anything discussed here will not even be scratching the surface yet.

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[tig_prmz]

i hope there is a god.. if we are the only ones in charge of our world, we're screweeeedd

 

[foreveratiger]

My only problem with this Religion Topic is all the Hypocrites that make themselves devoted to there God but break all Sins that there supposed to believe in….

A couple of years ago we had a Family B.B.Q at Mum's house on good Friday and one of my sister's friend brought her friend over , my Mum knew she was Catholic and respected that Catholics don't eat meat on Good Friday so she got her Seafood and a nice piece of Snapper . Samantha was talking to my Mum in the Kitchen as my Mum was Seasoning it with all the herbs and whatever have you..... Samantha says to my mum " who is that fish for ? " my Mum says for you , her reply was "don't worry Mum and Dad won't know unless you tell them " i'm having B.B.Q meat with everyone here .
Her parents used to think that when she got Married she was this Virgin walking up the aisle :roll . Her Mum said to my Mum " she looks beautiful in that pure White Dress " 😱pen_mouth: , my Mum said to Samantha's Mum " she sure is Senora Maria " .
Samantha knew how to Party let me tell you and my Mum became like a Mum to her cause she could be herself with my Mum and wasn't judged by her actions that was against her Parents faith .
Old generation Italians think there kids are something there not .

# How many are actually Married without having Sex until there Wedding Day ?
# Move in together before Marriage ?
# Marry in White dresses when they are not Virgins ?
# How many Priests have fondled Kids and touched them up that you hear off?

Sorry but it's the truth

I used to work with a Tunisian Man who was a Muslim and would always do the Ramadan but loved the Pokies and Gambled his earnings away.

I have no problem what so ever with people that want to believe in God but don't be hypocrites is what i would say.
What the Bible says they don't follow it , as i know so many that have done things that is totally against there Faith . Hypocrites at it's best .

 

[GNR4LIFE]

My only problem with this Religion Topic is all the Hypocrites that make themselves devoted to there God but break all Sins that there supposed to believe in….

A couple of years ago we had a Family B.B.Q at Mum's house on good Friday and one of my sister's friend brought her friend over , my Mum knew she was Catholic and respected that Catholics don't eat meat on Good Friday so she got her Seafood and a nice piece of Snapper . Samantha was talking to my Mum in the Kitchen as my Mum was Seasoning it with all the herbs and whatever have you..... Samantha says to my mum " who is that fish for ? " my Mum says for you , her reply was "don't worry Mum and Dad won't know unless you tell them " i'm having B.B.Q meat with everyone here .
Her parents used to think that when she got Married she was this Virgin walking up the aisle :roll . Her Mum said to my Mum " she looks beautiful in that pure White Dress " 😱pen_mouth: , my Mum said to Samantha's Mum " she sure is Senora Maria " .
Samantha knew how to Party let me tell you and my Mum became like a Mum to her cause she could be herself with my Mum and wasn't judged by her actions that was against her Parents faith .
Old generation Italians think there kids are something there not .

# How many are actually Married without having Sex until there Wedding Day ?
# Move in together before Marriage ?
# Marry in White dresses when they are not Virgins ?
# How many Priests have fondled Kids and touched them up that you hear off?

Sorry but it's the truth

I used to work with a Tunisian Man who was a Muslim and would always do the Ramadan but loved the Pokies and Gambled his earnings away.

I have no problem what so ever with people that want to believe in God but don't be hypocrites is what i would say.
What the Bible says they don't follow it , as i know so many that have done things that is totally against there Faith . Hypocrites at it's best .

From what you said, i don't think that makes her a hypocrite. Just because she's a born catholic and her parents are devout doesn't mean she's a practicing catholic.

 

[Tigersman]

For god sakes….Can we not all just believe in what ever the F we want... I believe in god I'm not telling you to believe in him I'm just saying I do. There's a Bloke who lives around the corner to me (he believes in aliens) I don't go up to him and say where's the evidence to support your claim. I respect his faith and try not to talk about our faiths for fear of argument....like now.

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Theres a big difference, aliens don't have a book that claims they created everything and aliens aren't saying in their book worship us and believe we died to save you or else you will be tormented for eternity in hell. If you believe i deserve to be totrured forever in hell because i don't believe in your version of god due ti a lack of convincing evidence, then 1\. i have a problem with you and 2\. Provide evidence as to why you believe this, and i might be concerned, until then ill treat your god as i treat unicorns, fairies, and dragons.

Can you not just respect my faith with out questioning it?

No, why should anyone respect anyone for believing in things which there's no evidence for. If i said i had faith in and believed i had a 50m purple dragon that lives in my garage that grants me wises and if you don't believe in it it will punish you for eternity, would your respect it?
People deserve respect, ideas don't. That's the problem with religion, islam in particular but Christianity also, it has gained way too much unearned respect, mostly due to threats of causing harm to others if you don't adhere to their backwards ideas.

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There is no helping you..

 

[foreveratiger]

My only problem with this Religion Topic is all the Hypocrites that make themselves devoted to there God but break all Sins that there supposed to believe in….

A couple of years ago we had a Family B.B.Q at Mum's house on good Friday and one of my sister's friend brought her friend over , my Mum knew she was Catholic and respected that Catholics don't eat meat on Good Friday so she got her Seafood and a nice piece of Snapper . Samantha was talking to my Mum in the Kitchen as my Mum was Seasoning it with all the herbs and whatever have you..... Samantha says to my mum " who is that fish for ? " my Mum says for you , her reply was "don't worry Mum and Dad won't know unless you tell them " i'm having B.B.Q meat with everyone here .
Her parents used to think that when she got Married she was this Virgin walking up the aisle :roll . Her Mum said to my Mum " she looks beautiful in that pure White Dress " 😱pen_mouth: , my Mum said to Samantha's Mum " she sure is Senora Maria " .
Samantha knew how to Party let me tell you and my Mum became like a Mum to her cause she could be herself with my Mum and wasn't judged by her actions that was against her Parents faith .
Old generation Italians think there kids are something there not .

# How many are actually Married without having Sex until there Wedding Day ?
# Move in together before Marriage ?
# Marry in White dresses when they are not Virgins ?
# How many Priests have fondled Kids and touched them up that you hear off?

Sorry but it's the truth

I used to work with a Tunisian Man who was a Muslim and would always do the Ramadan but loved the Pokies and Gambled his earnings away.

I have no problem what so ever with people that want to believe in God but don't be hypocrites is what i would say.
What the Bible says they don't follow it , as i know so many that have done things that is totally against there Faith . Hypocrites at it's best .

From what you said, i don't think that makes her a hypocrite. Just because she's a born catholic and her parents are devout doesn't mean she's a practicing catholic.

I never said she was a hypocrite and she isn't one far from it . She is exactly what you said born to a Catholic Family that chooses not to believe what her Parents do. My comment is that there is Catholics out there that will argue till there blue in the face but are hypocrites with there own actions that is against the Bible .

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Well Catholics are the most hypocritical religious folk there is. Don't know a group of people that are more judgmental when one of their precious commandments is thou shall not judge.

 

[foreveratiger]

Well Catholics are the most hypocritical religious folk there is. Don't know a group of people that are more judgmental when one of their precious commandments is thou shall not judge.

Finally we agree on something .

 

[happy_tiger]

Well Catholics are the most hypocritical religious folk there is. Don't know a group of people that are more judgmental when one of their precious commandments is thou shall not judge.

Finally we agree on something .

Just a tiny generalization there , don't you think gents ??

 

[Geo]

Think since the OP has been lost 7 pages ago …we should change tack and answer the really BIG question....

ARE WE ALONE IN THE UNIVERSE...?

With that this is going to General Discussion>>>>>>>>>