Thread closed?

[jirskyr]

31 If it gores a man’s son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

A lot of rules about oxen - don't seem to hear much from oxen these days; a forgotten animal.

 

[jirskyr]

@fair-dinkum lol the you are taking the word ‘slave’ too literally. I’d suggest you’d read some contemplations and research so you can actually understand what is being implied rather than just assuming and taking things at face value.

I would submit to you, if the message is unclear and subject to varied interpretation, then it isn't a very good message?

What good is a holy book if it doesn't state things clearly, or if it appears to state things clearly, one can find an alternative meaning. Calls the whole thing into question.

Don't take "slave" too literally, you say, also think about the symbolism. Gee whiz, the bible was primarily written for the peons not the intelligentsia, why does it need contemplations and further research to figure out what it's trying to say? Is it a poem, or a book of instructions?

 

[Harvey]

I'm curious, what is the opinion of religious folk who go door knocking, and try to convert other people to their faith?

I once had someone knock on my door and ask if I would like to be Jehovah’s Witness. I told them that I didn’t know who Jehovah was, and didn’t see the incident he was involved in.

 

[Madge]

@jirskyr that was the terminology used back in the Old Testament, a slave was referred to a servant, serving out of free will.

 

[Sart0ri]

@jirskyr that was the terminology used back in the Old Testament, a slave was referred to a servant, serving out of free will.

It certainly didn't sound like that, it sounded like ownership. If they were free to leave at any time why was the slave allowed to go free when they were maimed. "When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye"

 

[Madge]

@Sart0ri this verse actually shows how precious a servant was to his master. It says if the servant was injured by his master, they will receive more than an eye, their freedom. It gives incentive to the master to treat their servant more as an ‘employee’ rather than a ‘labourer’ or a work dog. It portrays the mercy that we should have on one another.

Also, guys by no means do I mean to offend anyone or take this personal with anyone, If I did I apologise, I’m just trying to have a conversation about something I support and am passionate about. Thanks for understanding.

 

[cochise]

It says if the servant was injured by his master, they will receive more than an eye, their freedom.

Why would they need their freedom if they are a servant by their own freewill? Couldn't they just decide to not be a servant?

Who are they buying these servants from? Doesn’t that act of purchasing them show a belief in the slave being property?

 

[jirskyr]

@Sart0ri this verse actually shows how precious a servant was to his master. It says if the servant was injured by his master, they will receive more than an eye, their freedom. It gives incentive to the master to treat their servant more as an ‘employee’ rather than a ‘labourer’ or a work dog. It portrays the mercy that we should have on one another.

Also, guys by no means do I mean to offend anyone or take this personal with anyone, If I did I apologise, I’m just trying to have a conversation about something I support and am passionate about. Thanks for understanding.

Not a slave, a servant!

Not a victim, a bystander!

I'm curious what sort of text needs to lay down rules for servant-owners, because of course nobody had slaves back in biblical times. Lots of servants, no slaves.

 

[Sart0ri]

this verse actually shows how precious a servant was to his master.

Now you are just being silly. You may be referring to an "interpretation" from another source, but that is not what the quote says at all.

This is a document that has been translated by humans many, many times. Humans have their own agendas. It is possible that a translator along the line didn't like the original text as it conflicted with their ownership of slaves, but we will never know.

I have always wondered if one of the early Koran scribes or translators owned a chicken farm and business wasn't going too well due to competition with the local pig farm...

 

[Go_You_Good_Things]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I know right, all that hate, slavery, murdering and inequality that's condoned in the bible, its almost like my tongue in cheek post is on the same level, how very intolerant of me. I should be supportive of slavery at least, be a good Christian if i was. If one wants to talk of intolerance one only has to read the bible. It's how a huge number of people become atheist when they realise it condones the most immoral and intolerant things possible. Sorry if i triggered a nerve I just find myself much more moral and tolerant than a morally bankrupt deity.



The loving caring moral words from your God -

**EXODUS 21** “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

So if your comment was tongue in cheek, so was mine. Why did you feel it necessary to type for 15 minutes afterwards ? Leave the ox's, pregnant women and the slaves alone.

 

[fair dinkum]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I know right, all that hate, slavery, murdering and inequality that's condoned in the bible, its almost like my tongue in cheek post is on the same level, how very intolerant of me. I should be supportive of slavery at least, be a good Christian if i was. If one wants to talk of intolerance one only has to read the bible. It's how a huge number of people become atheist when they realise it condones the most immoral and intolerant things possible. Sorry if i triggered a nerve I just find myself much more moral and tolerant than a morally bankrupt deity.



The loving caring moral words from your God -

**EXODUS 21** “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

So if your comment was tongue in cheek, so was mine. Why did you feel it necessary to type for 15 minutes afterwards ? Leave the ox's, pregnant women and the slaves alone.

I didnt type for 15 minutes, it took 30 seconds to cut and paste from the plethora of websites pointing out disgusting cult doctrine.

 

[fair dinkum]

@jirskyr that was the terminology used back in the Old Testament, **a slave was referred to a servant, serving out of free will.**

I actually laughed and spat out my drink when i read that, come on mate, you cant be seriously defending something that is so clearly written. Servant/Slave, whichever term you want to use, these people arent free and its explicitly written so. They are owned. One human owning another human. We call this slavery and we know its wrong, it has never been ok to own another human being. Its just a pity that God did condone it. Whether, as you say, he came back and changed his infallible mind, it has never been ok to own another human, period. This is what religion does to good people and why religion turns many people into atheists once they actually decide to read the bible and learn the abhorrent things it condones.

Its cognitive dissonance. You can not come to terms with the fact that you are more moral than the thug of the bible and you have to twist words, meaning and context to make it feel better for your belief.


"The term 'slave' is a poor translation. It should be 'free servants'." :laughing:

This may be plausible in some contexts if you are looking to push a narrative however some instances, that interpretation just simply doesnt work at all and no matter how much you want to sugar coat it, you just cant.

**Leviticus 25:46**, *And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves* - which specifically allows that slaves are property who may be inherited by the owner's children and kept for life. This passage makes no sense unless they are discussing slavery — permanent ownership of one human by another.

**Matthew 18:24-25** *As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.* - makes no sense if said "servant" is not a slave, since the master has the power to buy/sell both the "servant", his wife and his children.

It also makes little sense in the case of **Matthew 24:50-51** in which these "servants" may be not only beaten by their master (as in **Luke 12:47** - *And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.*), but that the master can butcher the servant. - *The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder* - They are owned possessions to do with as the Master sees fit.

Asunder = adverb, 1. Tearing and breaking into pieces, 2. into forcefully separated pieces



All sounds pretty kosher to me.

 

[fair dinkum]

@Sart0ri this verse actually shows **how precious a servant was to his master**. It says **if the servant was injured by his master,** **they will receive** more than an eye, **their freedom.** It gives **incentive to the master to treat their servant more as an ‘employee’ rather than a ‘labourer’ or a work dog**. It portrays the mercy that we should have on one another.

Damn, im very rarely lost for words. This just sadness me that religion can twist someones mind to this level.

I wonder how the servant, sorry, "employee" felt in all this?

 

[NT_Tiger]

@fair-dinkum
Well, to be honest, I could use a few slaves. This christianity is looking pretty good after all!

 

[fair dinkum]

@fair-dinkum
Well, to be honest, I could use a few slaves. This christianity is looking pretty good after all!

They approve.

Remember, Its ok to beat the living day lights out of them, maybe after another golden point loss, just as long as you dont kill the slave youll be fine.

**When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.**

 

[Harvey]

Surely Ryan Matterson has read the old testament, he must realise that he has sold himself unto the slavery which is an NRL contract.

 

[Spud_Murphy]

So many claim not to believe in a God , yet every week pray we win ......... go figure

And cry out ‘oh God’!! When we’re in shock about something or hit our thumbs with the hammer. Perhaps aethists ought to cry out ‘oh nothing’!!

 

[Harvey]

So many claim not to believe in a God , yet every week pray we win ......... go figure


And cry out ‘oh God’!! When we’re in shock about something or hit our thumbs with the hammer. Perhaps aethists ought to cry out ‘oh nothing’!!

I can’t quote what I usually cry out. It will get me banned.

 

[Spud_Murphy]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I can feel this thread will be closed soon lol


I’m praying that that is the case

But who to?

I pray to MY god

I am MY god!

That’s a worry ?

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

So many claim not to believe in a God , yet every week pray we win ......... go figure


And cry out ‘oh God’!! When we’re in shock about something or hit our thumbs with the hammer. Perhaps aethists ought to cry out ‘oh nothing’!!


I can’t quote what I usually cry out. It will get me banned.

Haha me too. It's expletive laden and has nothing to do with any deities.