Two myths the club seems happy to perpetuate...

[TigerNeddyK]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level

FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

 

[earl]

You could put the best coach of all time in charge of this squad and we'd be just as bad.

It was interesting seeing Cronulla play yesterday. They aren't superstars but they just have so many better runners of the footy than what we have.

Compare Nofo to either of their wingers. We pay Nofo good money.
Our forwards just aren't up to it.
Our spine isn't good enough.

We are a bottom 4 roster.

I think we are building nicely but we need at least 5 quality players in the team and more like 2 origin level players.

I also don't see quick fixes by paying overs and getting someone like Finucane will help.

 

[GCfan]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

 

[hobbo1]

The players are tanking
They are pussies
Piss them off

 

[happy_tiger]

Not showing up in huge season defining games ......

 

[aturkey]

Madge seems like a better GM than coach tbh. I like what he's doing with the roster and generally but the doco is not good lol.

As a Tigers fan, I am really embarrassed by it. Nothing has ever made us look more mediocre. If I was a player, I wouldn't want to go to the Tigers after watching it.

 

[Tiger_heart]

Something has to give...either the players or the coach. Otherwise, I'm afraid the old definition of madness will apply. For mine, I'd rather go through a "solid" rebuild, post a thorough clean out, than pin my hopes on a coach that has been given many, many chances to develop the team (and the individuals) and failed.
I also don't buy into the argument of back contracts. The coach (this one or future) know all too well what they are getting themselves into and it's up to them to devise a strategy that works. Coming up with excuses only hides a lack of foresight, at every level.
Show me a team that is at least TRYING and I know there is a future. What I see is all (players and management) on a comfortable road to nowhere, sadly.

We have gone through a rebuild, next year should be the year we finally do well.

Sorry but we've heard this since 2005..

Coach will be in his fourth year, he's cleared all the bad signings out yet we have absolutely no hope of improving next year currently

If we need to rebuild from the old rebuild that probably means the club has done a crap job ? guess we have to wait and see if they can perform some miracles in the off season

Like I said, unless to the extent that this club WANTS to do well it will show what we can expect, but it is going to take SOME miracle! ;-)

 

[Tiger_heart]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

Players though usually have a reason for not performing on the field AND it is the coach's job to get them into shape..

 

[Harvey]

We have an identity. We are a soft football team.

The most disgusting thing about this season is the lack of effort;. I could cop losses if I think that they players are playing up to their best. They are not.

There are a lot of lazy players out there simply going through the motions. I will single out Joe O.

At his best he is a destructive forward, but appears to have been going through the motions since origin. Mikaele is another. Will hit the ball up hard when he is on. Concentration levels are terrible & does not like making effort in defence.

 

[Tigerbuck63]

Just a few comments on a couple of things that have
Until we stop making excuses, we won't get out of this rut we are in. It is 'concerning' when management keeps mumbling reasons why we are not winning games...and why the coach can stay...rather than aggressively demanding success and making sure people are accountable.

Accountability is a myth in the NRL.
It starts and ends with the coach. Players rarely get dropped and if some do in an attempt to look like there’s accountability they quickly return because there’s never adequate depth. The reality is, if you’ve got an average squad like ours, dogs etc, to make players accountable you’d have to almost drop the entire squad-and for a decent amount of time. No clubs going to do that as firstly, you can’t play that many reserve graders at the same time in first grade and secondly, you saw what happens when you have too many reserve graders in a first grade team.

So, let's leave LL out there for 80 mins even though he is absolutely out on his feet after 30?

Let's not drop Nofa...despite him having years and years to show improved D, but still making the exact same errors?

Let's leave Brooksy to badly run the team each week?

Bennet left out Origin players this year and played state cup players...so that the senior players knew they were on notice. He dropped Sua and Mansour and picked kids. He made them accountable.

Some great points like to also add why select Walters yesterday in a crunch game when he just looked out of his depth.

Nofo when tries were scored against him looked inside you could tell he was looking at LL but he also has to take some ownership for his D. I don't see teams targeting KM???

Brooks missing again proves that needs a fresh start somewhere else.

Madge basically delusional if he thinks we can still make the 8 we blew that this season when we lost to the Cowboys at home in Tommy Rad tribute and then beaten by the Warriors.
As fans we have been at the Club longer and we are not stupid so why treat us that way?

We cannot attract any big signing to the Club until we change the management that starts with the laid back CEO and the coach, lets hope for some off season board direction.

 

[earl]

Not showing up in huge season defining games ......

This kills you doesn't it. Whenever it counts we go to pieces.

 

[GCfan]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

Players though usually have a reason for not performing on the field AND it is the coach's job to get them into shape..

Understand your point of view but based on that logic any team that fails to make the top 8 should sack the coach as it’s the coaches job to fix performance. I think there’s more to it than just the coach and the coaches methods

 

[mccarry2]

Just over three years ago I was so proud of our first few games of the season under Ivan. I remember our defensive line punishing runners. I remember the scramble. I remember the intensity. I felt proud to be part of Wests Tigers.

That year the players hadn’t changed. For some reason they just performed at a higher level.

Over the past year I watched a team leader change in one of my poorer performing businesses. Same team members (players) new leader (coach).

We put an exceptional leader in and the team on average are:
1. more engaged in their work (enabler)
2. growing in skill (enabler)
3. Putting in more discretionary effort (enabler)
4. Getting better results (outcome)

This team now looks like that Tigers team smashing runners, over the moon when something good happens. You can feel it when you interact with them.

Perhaps it’s confidence, perhaps it’s their relationship as a group, perhaps mindset. Either way the stronger leader just gets more from the same people.

When performance is sub standard the first thing I look at is the leader. Time and time again I have seen no greater correlation to performance than the talent of the people leader.

To add weight to this applying to Wests Tigers, I have seen it with my teams in Australia, Japan and China. I have seen it in Finance teams, Sales teams, Service teams and Marketing teams.

Regardless of culture or nature of roles, great leaders get results.

PRINCIPAL 1
STRONGER LEADER, same people = stronger performance.

Principal 1 has maximum impact when the underlying talent of the team is high.

In the recent example the underlying talent in the team was already good. The new leader has a lot to work with.

PRINCIPAL 2 Great Leaders ALWAYS get some overall improvement from a group of people.

When a new leader is applied to an underperforming team and performance doesn’t improve within a few years (2 yrs MAX) the truth is the leader needs to change again. Their role is to get more from people, not just exceptionally talented people.

This is even more obvious when they hire new people and most of these new team members don’t improve overall performance.

Conclusion 1.
If Madge could lead this group to higher performance we would have seen it by now. There would also be more evidence of player growth. Stefano is not the example, he grew when he experienced a different group of leaders (player leaders and coaches).

 

[mccarry2]

PRINCIPAL 3 Great Leader + Weak talent = inconsistent performance.

Four years ago we acquired a new business.

This situation allowed me to see what happens when you put exceptional leaders with less talented teams.

Distilling it down I observed inconsistent improvements in people and short term performance spikes that never lasted.

In this case, we couldn’t get enough performance by just changing the leaders.

We needed to inject enough top talent into the team to change culture from within before performance became consistent.

Leaders need people working within the team to demonstrate what high performance looks like EVERYDAY.

Fast forward four years and the two key teams in this acquired business have been our best performers over at least the last three years.

We can all see that this is another problem at our beloved Tigers. We have a talent problem.

PRINCIPAL 4
Great Leaders + INJECTED TOP PERFORMERS = more performance from everyone else.

Senior team members who have poor behaviours or results MUST be the first to go. They are sitting on the bar.

In my business we couldn’t raise the bar with these senior team members sitting on it.

After we brought in top performers and standards went up around the existing team, people grew more and achieved more than they ever thought possible.

It’s often not about changing all the team, it’s about changing the right ones and then replacing them with top performers.

Senior players are instrumental as they lead within a team. We don’t have them.

CONCLUSION 2. We need to inject top performers whose example will inspire others (not players like TPJ who ride on natural talent)

 

[mccarry2]

Summary
Great leaders attract top performers

When I see Principal 1 solved, EVERY TIME I see people want to join that team and I quote “be part of what is happening there”. I hate to admit it, but that is what we heard when Ivan was recruiting although he paid way to much for this players.

Change the coach, if he could improve performance we would know by now. It’s a myth that you don’t see it in three years.

Underperforming senior players who are sitting on the bar hold us back are on their way out (Mbye, Packer).

Brooks performed under Ivan. Give him half a season under new leader (no alternative anyway)

Be patient and find two players who are the example but not end career. Pay overs for them, three years deals.

 

[TrueTiger]

You could put the best coach of all time in charge of this squad and we'd be just as bad.

It was interesting seeing Cronulla play yesterday. They aren't superstars but they just have so many better runners of the footy than what we have.

Compare Nofo to either of their wingers. We pay Nofo good money.
Our forwards just aren't up to it.
Our spine isn't good enough.

We are a bottom 4 roster.

I think we are building nicely but we need at least 5 quality players in the team and more like 2 origin level players.

I also don't see quick fixes by paying overs and getting someone like Finucane will help.

I agree with a lot of what your saying Earl....

I just want to say that there is one really bad fault with this squad and it doesnt fall on the coach...he can coach them ,condition them,supply structure and gameplans to win games,he has the credentials to coach at this level....

The problem is and has been all season if you review the games....
This squad is to weak atm to deal with and handle NRL level pressure,they have proven it time and time again,they get on the back foot,they make up for it for a period of time BUT ALWAYS FALL SHORT....the pressure gets to them...
When they get more experienced and decide to work as a cohesive unit,the time will come when they can deal with the pressure for 80 mins not just now and then....

 

[earl]

When they get more experienced and decide to work as a cohesive unit,the time will come when they can deal with the pressure for 80 mins not just now and then…

We can improve but we need some better players as well. I look at the Cronulla wingers. We've contracted Nofo on good dollars and he isn't a top line winger.

It's cool to have guys like Nofo in your team but you pay them appropriately and use the dollars left over to get better players elsewhere.

We always do this as well.

 

[Tiger_heart]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

Players though usually have a reason for not performing on the field AND it is the coach's job to get them into shape..

Understand your point of view but based on that logic any team that fails to make the top 8 should sack the coach as it’s the coaches job to fix performance. I think there’s more to it than just the coach and the coaches methods

No. Any team that doesn't even TRY to make the top 8 should look at itself and critically examine what went wrong, and where necessary, make the adjustment(s)...

 

[TrueTiger]

When they get more experienced and decide to work as a cohesive unit,the time will come when they can deal with the pressure for 80 mins not just now and then…

We can improve but we need some better players as well. I look at the Cronulla wingers. We've contracted Nofo on good dollars and he isn't a top line winger.

It's cool to have guys like Nofo in your team but you pay them appropriately and use the dollars left over to get better players elsewhere.

We always do this as well.

I agree Earl,but in this point in time Madge has to work with what he has got....most are green and inexperienced,they may get better with time....the trouble for me is and I wont knock Madge on this,that the club with its divisive board years ago,poor Admin and CEOs,poor coaching employment since Sheens left has left us as the rabble that now exists...Madge is trying,you can see his passion,Cleary could have been good but destroyed our cap,Potter wasnt given the chance to continue his work and not resigned and JT had the method but not the managment skills to instill what he needed...
So my conclusion is we have let the higher ups royally screw the club because they werent credentialled enough to understand the NRL and its systems...
We are now in a process of clearing the floor to start again,this time with good financial backing,no more over priced purchases and a squad very young and learning...Many can lay blame on the feet of Madge...I dont because he isnt the one who continually let things get out of hand and made it harder for the next person to step up....the previous train of thought was lets get a quick fix....and that has led us to where we are today....