Who should Madge's assistant coaches be for 2022?

[Tiger5150]

This thread has thrown up some interesting points, particularly with regards to Flanagan but IMO is skirting around the main issue.

What are the roles of the assistant coaches? This is the start and finish if the decision of who we use.

Is it for tactical input? If so I could see merit to Flanagan however there is a point of diminishing returns. How many have tactical input? Madge obviously. Sheens? Assistants? I can imagine there is a point where it’s too many voices.

Defensive structures? Possibly Pay.

Instilling toughness? Opens to pay and a lots of others.

Culture? Not Flanagan.

This is the first question, the answer will flow from there.

depends if you want a winning culture or a running through the daisies with braided hair culture.

What is a winning culture. Win at all costs? Win with integrity and principles?

A "winning" culture starts with the players having the right principles and attitude. An attitude that principles dont matter and success can be short cut by taking a supplement or cheating is not a successful culture. A culture that hard work and excellence will get you there is a winning culture.

Melbourne, Roosters, Souffs, Penrith, Manly to an extent have a "winning" culture. A culture established by principles. How can you tell? Because when things go wrong, they have something solid to fall back to and maintain performance. With someone else instilled in those principles to take the place of the last guy.

How did Cronulla go with that? Did their "winning" culture stand the test of time and adversity?

They won a comp and were always strong when he was there. So, yes.

Did it last? Did it stand the test of time and adversity? No. It ran out slowly after the peptides ran out. Track Gallens minutes. He was consistently an 80minute prop for two years. That coincidentally ended at the end of Flannos reign. Because of hard work?

EDIT: Are you serious Gallagher? You would be happy to achieve the "winning" culture the way Flanagan did?

Maybe he game time/performance went down because he was in his late 30's???

He retired 2019. He was an 80min prop for two years. Guess which years.

So he had 2 good years in his career? Awesome.
We still taking about about Flanagan arnt we? His time at cronulla over 8 seasons was successful . No?

Im not questioning that. I was very specific. Are you happy to accept success at any cost, using Flanagans methods?

To cut in, what methods are you talking about ? People don’t seriously think he’ll come here and start jabbing the players with needles in the first week.

Of course not, I dont think Flanagan would ever again have a system of injecting peptides. This discussion was about what the assistants coaches role would be and what they would add. Gallagher wanted the "winning" culture that Flanagan had at Cronulla. I amerely pointing out that unlike the "winning culture" at Melbourne, Souffs, Penrith or Manly, Flanagans "winning" culture was based on something completely artificial, unsustainable and potentially killed a player. Not exactly what I would sign up for as a culture at the Wests Tigers.

 

[watersider]

Does anyone know how Flanagan went at St George and why he wasn't retained? I get that a new coach coming in wants his own coaches, but if you have someone really contributing something you'd want to retain them. So is there any word on how Flanagan went at St George?

I get what cochise says against Flanagan, but I can't help but be impressed by Flanagan when I hear him on the telly. Totally different from coaching, I know, but he just strikes me as someone who can cut through. Only hesitation is whether he works as an assistant and how he did in that role at St george. Obviously didn't improve performance much on the field, but that's not really the assistant's fault.

 

[Tiger5150]

This thread has thrown up some interesting points, particularly with regards to Flanagan but IMO is skirting around the main issue.

What are the roles of the assistant coaches? This is the start and finish if the decision of who we use.

Is it for tactical input? If so I could see merit to Flanagan however there is a point of diminishing returns. How many have tactical input? Madge obviously. Sheens? Assistants? I can imagine there is a point where it’s too many voices.

Defensive structures? Possibly Pay.

Instilling toughness? Opens to pay and a lots of others.

Culture? Not Flanagan.

This is the first question, the answer will flow from there.

depends if you want a winning culture or a running through the daisies with braided hair culture.

If you have to use supplements to create a culture like "The Cheat" did at the Sharpies.

I'd rather have a different culture.

I would rather the current culture than that (that is saying a LOT, Im not a fan of the current culture).

 

[Russell]

This thread has thrown up some interesting points, particularly with regards to Flanagan but IMO is skirting around the main issue.

What are the roles of the assistant coaches? This is the start and finish if the decision of who we use.

Is it for tactical input? If so I could see merit to Flanagan however there is a point of diminishing returns. How many have tactical input? Madge obviously. Sheens? Assistants? I can imagine there is a point where it’s too many voices.

Defensive structures? Possibly Pay.

Instilling toughness? Opens to pay and a lots of others.

Culture? Not Flanagan.

This is the first question, the answer will flow from there.

depends if you want a winning culture or a running through the daisies with braided hair culture.

What is a winning culture. Win at all costs? Win with integrity and principles?

A "winning" culture starts with the players having the right principles and attitude. An attitude that principles dont matter and success can be short cut by taking a supplement or cheating is not a successful culture. A culture that hard work and excellence will get you there is a winning culture.

Melbourne, Roosters, Souffs, Penrith, Manly to an extent have a "winning" culture. A culture established by principles. How can you tell? Because when things go wrong, they have something solid to fall back to and maintain performance. With someone else instilled in those principles to take the place of the last guy.

How did Cronulla go with that? Did their "winning" culture stand the test of time and adversity?

They won a comp and were always strong when he was there. So, yes.

Did it last? Did it stand the test of time and adversity? No. It ran out slowly after the peptides ran out. Track Gallens minutes. He was consistently an 80minute prop for two years. That coincidentally ended at the end of Flannos reign. Because of hard work?

EDIT: Are you serious Gallagher? You would be happy to achieve the "winning" culture the way Flanagan did?

Maybe he game time/performance went down because he was in his late 30's???

He retired 2019. He was an 80min prop for two years. Guess which years.

So he had 2 good years in his career? Awesome.
We still taking about about Flanagan arnt we? His time at cronulla over 8 seasons was successful . No?

Im not questioning that. I was very specific. Are you happy to accept success at any cost, using Flanagans methods?

To cut in, what methods are you talking about ? People don’t seriously think he’ll come here and start jabbing the players with needles in the first week.

No not the first week.

 

[Tiger5150]

Does anyone know how Flanagan went at St George and why he wasn't retained? I get that a new coach coming in wants his own coaches, but if you have someone really contributing something you'd want to retain them. So is there any word on how Flanagan went at St George?

I get what cochise says against Flanagan, but I can't help but be impressed by Flanagan when I hear him on the telly. Totally different from coaching, I know, but he just strikes me as someone who can cut through. Only hesitation is whether he works as an assistant and how he did in that role at St george. Obviously didn't improve performance much on the field, but that's not really the assistant's fault.

This is the reason behind my question of what we are looking for from an assistant. If they want another voice for tactical input, I can see a role for Flanagan (I dont want him here but can see he would help), if its to build culture, no.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

The Cronulla winning culture is also based upon a very strong junior recruitment, identification, retention and development system. The Sharks also have an excellent junior training facility at Cronulla High, relocated from the grounds upon which the Woolooware Bay development was built.

To attribute the success at the Sharks soley to the use of whatever they used is incorrect. They are still a strong club in and around the top 8.

 

[gallagher]

This thread has thrown up some interesting points, particularly with regards to Flanagan but IMO is skirting around the main issue.

What are the roles of the assistant coaches? This is the start and finish if the decision of who we use.

Is it for tactical input? If so I could see merit to Flanagan however there is a point of diminishing returns. How many have tactical input? Madge obviously. Sheens? Assistants? I can imagine there is a point where it’s too many voices.

Defensive structures? Possibly Pay.

Instilling toughness? Opens to pay and a lots of others.

Culture? Not Flanagan.

This is the first question, the answer will flow from there.

depends if you want a winning culture or a running through the daisies with braided hair culture.

What is a winning culture. Win at all costs? Win with integrity and principles?

A "winning" culture starts with the players having the right principles and attitude. An attitude that principles dont matter and success can be short cut by taking a supplement or cheating is not a successful culture. A culture that hard work and excellence will get you there is a winning culture.

Melbourne, Roosters, Souffs, Penrith, Manly to an extent have a "winning" culture. A culture established by principles. How can you tell? Because when things go wrong, they have something solid to fall back to and maintain performance. With someone else instilled in those principles to take the place of the last guy.

How did Cronulla go with that? Did their "winning" culture stand the test of time and adversity?

They won a comp and were always strong when he was there. So, yes.

Did it last? Did it stand the test of time and adversity? No. It ran out slowly after the peptides ran out. Track Gallens minutes. He was consistently an 80minute prop for two years. That coincidentally ended at the end of Flannos reign. Because of hard work?

EDIT: Are you serious Gallagher? You would be happy to achieve the "winning" culture the way Flanagan did?

Maybe he game time/performance went down because he was in his late 30's???

He was doping?

Which years?

I don't care which years, he was banned for doping, so was his coach who oversaw the program.

I dint think all his success was down to dop I nb g. I think he had a lot to offer.

 

[DrewPeacock]

Kimmorley
Farah
Gardiner

Thats not a bad combo at all!

 

[yeahcaz]

I’m still on the Deano pay bandwagon. He had that so called first grade side for the doggies busting their ass in defence.

 

[yeahcaz]

Kimmorley
Farah
Gardiner

Thats not a bad combo at all!

Kimmorley is part of pathways. He has nothing to do with the first grade side

 

[Geo]

The Cronulla winning culture is also based upon a very strong junior recruitment, identification, retention and development system. The Sharks also have an excellent junior training facility at Cronulla High, relocated from the grounds upon which the Woolooware Bay development was built.

To attribute the success at the Sharks soley to the use of whatever they used is incorrect. They are still a strong club in and around the top 8.

Is that wher Bronson Xerri went…?

 

[frullens]

Kimmorley
Farah
Gardiner

Thats not a bad combo at all!

Kimmorley is part of pathways. He has nothing to do with the first grade side

Why can't he do pathways and do halves coaching for FG KOE JF?

 

[jirskyr]

but I can’t help but be impressed by Flanagan when I hear him on the telly.

Seibold and Matt Elliott are pretty good on telly too.

 

[jirskyr]

The Cronulla winning culture is also based upon a very strong junior recruitment, identification, retention and development system. The Sharks also have an excellent junior training facility at Cronulla High, relocated from the grounds upon which the Woolooware Bay development was built.

To attribute the success at the Sharks soley to the use of whatever they used is incorrect. They are still a strong club in and around the top 8.

The Sharks don't have a winning culture, I'm sorry, not any more. They had a good period under Flanagan, but it's since been shown they were not only substance abusing but they were also cheating the salary cap. That's the lengths they had to go to to achieve some sustained success.

Since the peptides were turned off and they stopped cheating the cap, they are a borderline finals side who haven't won a finals match since 2018. Their previous sustained performance was under Johnny Lang, and after he left they made the finals only 5 times in 13 attemps including one wooden spoon.

Also borderline bankrupt except for last-minute sale of their swamp land for unit development. Regular unrest at head office including several CEO sackings (at one point they had appointed 3 CEOs in 12 months); on top of when their chairman got done for possession.

In fact they are so ordinary they remain Wests Tigers' second-best head-to-head opponent, despite us winning only 3 of the last 12 against them.

 

[Leichardt61]

This thread has thrown up some interesting points, particularly with regards to Flanagan but IMO is skirting around the main issue.

What are the roles of the assistant coaches? This is the start and finish if the decision of who we use.

Is it for tactical input? If so I could see merit to Flanagan however there is a point of diminishing returns. How many have tactical input? Madge obviously. Sheens? Assistants? I can imagine there is a point where it’s too many voices.

Defensive structures? Possibly Pay.

Instilling toughness? Opens to pay and a lots of others.

Culture? Not Flanagan.

This is the first question, the answer will flow from there.

depends if you want a winning culture or a running through the daisies with braided hair culture.

What is a winning culture. Win at all costs? Win with integrity and principles?

A "winning" culture starts with the players having the right principles and attitude. An attitude that principles dont matter and success can be short cut by taking a supplement or cheating is not a successful culture. A culture that hard work and excellence will get you there is a winning culture.

Melbourne, Roosters, Souffs, Penrith, Manly to an extent have a "winning" culture. A culture established by principles. How can you tell? Because when things go wrong, they have something solid to fall back to and maintain performance. With someone else instilled in those principles to take the place of the last guy.

How did Cronulla go with that? Did their "winning" culture stand the test of time and adversity?

They won a comp and were always strong when he was there. So, yes.

Did it last? Did it stand the test of time and adversity? No. It ran out slowly after the peptides ran out. Track Gallens minutes. He was consistently an 80minute prop for two years. That coincidentally ended at the end of Flannos reign. Because of hard work?

EDIT: Are you serious Gallagher? You would be happy to achieve the "winning" culture the way Flanagan did?

Maybe he game time/performance went down because he was in his late 30's???

He retired 2019. He was an 80min prop for two years. Guess which years.

So he had 2 good years in his career? Awesome.
We still taking about about Flanagan arnt we? His time at cronulla over 8 seasons was successful . No?

Im not questioning that. I was very specific. Are you happy to accept success at any cost, using Flanagans methods?

To cut in, what methods are you talking about ? People don’t seriously think he’ll come here and start jabbing the players with needles in the first week.

Of course not, I dont think Flanagan would ever again have a system of injecting peptides. This discussion was about what the assistants coaches role would be and what they would add. Gallagher wanted the "winning" culture that Flanagan had at Cronulla. I amerely pointing out that unlike the "winning culture" at Melbourne, Souffs, Penrith or Manly, Flanagans "winning" culture was based on something completely artificial, unsustainable and potentially killed a player. Not exactly what I would sign up for as a culture at the Wests Tigers.

It's a little funny that people are saying the winning culture Flanagan developed isn't good enough, calling it "artificial and unsustainable", whilst in the same breath alluding that Melbournes rise was somehow any different. Bellamy oversaw the greatest salary cap cheating of the modern era to form the foundations of Melbourne. The club was punished however it laid the platform for their culture to this day and allowed them to build upon it into the winning force they are now.

If Flanagans culture had kept Cronulla not just competitive but a powerhouse none of us would be hesitating on his potential signing as an assistant, regardless of his cheating. Winning culture only involves one thing, winning, to be judging some on their unethical methods to obtain it yet not others is laughable.

Personally I'll take any winning culture at this point for our Tigers as long as there's no danger to the players, staff or club.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Seriously after last year we get someone like Flanagan actually put his hat in the ring to be an assistant coach and yet people still aren’t happy.

We need the best we can get and he sure as hell is the best tactical and personal coach available.

Give him the keys to control our defense and have no doubts at all we will improve.

If we don’t improve then zero chance he is head coach because he and Madge would both be on the chopping bloke if we are serious about results.

 

[cochise]

This thread has thrown up some interesting points, particularly with regards to Flanagan but IMO is skirting around the main issue.

What are the roles of the assistant coaches? This is the start and finish if the decision of who we use.

Is it for tactical input? If so I could see merit to Flanagan however there is a point of diminishing returns. How many have tactical input? Madge obviously. Sheens? Assistants? I can imagine there is a point where it’s too many voices.

Defensive structures? Possibly Pay.

Instilling toughness? Opens to pay and a lots of others.

Culture? Not Flanagan.

This is the first question, the answer will flow from there.

depends if you want a winning culture or a running through the daisies with braided hair culture.

What is a winning culture. Win at all costs? Win with integrity and principles?

A "winning" culture starts with the players having the right principles and attitude. An attitude that principles dont matter and success can be short cut by taking a supplement or cheating is not a successful culture. A culture that hard work and excellence will get you there is a winning culture.

Melbourne, Roosters, Souffs, Penrith, Manly to an extent have a "winning" culture. A culture established by principles. How can you tell? Because when things go wrong, they have something solid to fall back to and maintain performance. With someone else instilled in those principles to take the place of the last guy.

How did Cronulla go with that? Did their "winning" culture stand the test of time and adversity?

They won a comp and were always strong when he was there. So, yes.

Did it last? Did it stand the test of time and adversity? No. It ran out slowly after the peptides ran out. Track Gallens minutes. He was consistently an 80minute prop for two years. That coincidentally ended at the end of Flannos reign. Because of hard work?

EDIT: Are you serious Gallagher? You would be happy to achieve the "winning" culture the way Flanagan did?

Maybe he game time/performance went down because he was in his late 30's???

He retired 2019. He was an 80min prop for two years. Guess which years.

So he had 2 good years in his career? Awesome.
We still taking about about Flanagan arnt we? His time at cronulla over 8 seasons was successful . No?

Im not questioning that. I was very specific. Are you happy to accept success at any cost, using Flanagans methods?

To cut in, what methods are you talking about ? People don’t seriously think he’ll come here and start jabbing the players with needles in the first week.

Of course not, I dont think Flanagan would ever again have a system of injecting peptides. This discussion was about what the assistants coaches role would be and what they would add. Gallagher wanted the "winning" culture that Flanagan had at Cronulla. I amerely pointing out that unlike the "winning culture" at Melbourne, Souffs, Penrith or Manly, Flanagans "winning" culture was based on something completely artificial, unsustainable and potentially killed a player. Not exactly what I would sign up for as a culture at the Wests Tigers.

It's a little funny that people are saying the winning culture Flanagan developed isn't good enough, calling it "artificial and unsustainable", whilst in the same breath alluding that Melbournes rise was somehow any different. Bellamy oversaw the greatest salary cap cheating of the modern era to form the foundations of Melbourne. The club was punished however it laid the platform for their culture to this day and allowed them to build upon it into the winning force they are now.

If Flanagans culture had kept Cronulla not just competitive but a powerhouse none of us would be hesitating on his potential signing as an assistant, regardless of his cheating. Winning culture only involves one thing, winning, to be judging some on their unethical methods to obtain it yet not others is laughable.

Personally I'll take any winning culture at this point for our Tigers as long as there's no danger to the players, staff or club.

Sorry I would still be hesitant on signing him, precisely because of your last line.

 

[jirskyr]

The Cronulla winning culture is also based upon a very strong junior recruitment, identification, retention and development system. The Sharks also have an excellent junior training facility at Cronulla High, relocated from the grounds upon which the Woolooware Bay development was built.

To attribute the success at the Sharks soley to the use of whatever they used is incorrect. They are still a strong club in and around the top 8.

Also you said this yourself in 2020:

>Does anyone else agree a review needs to be undertaken into what measures were put in place by the Sharks following the peptides saga ? I would imagine if measures were in place, why was their star 19 year old centre able to use this type of drug without being detected by his coach and other professional trainers?
>
The club has a duty of care and potentially this is the end of this teenagers career. The outcome could have been potentially so much better had the club detected the use and voluntarily approached ASADA to make a deal. I think Peter Vlandys has a big decision to make about the.Sharks.

Is this the winning culture you speak of?

 

[happy_tiger]

I'm guessing if Shane comes ...Kyle comes ....

 

[WT2K]

I'm guessing if Shane comes ...Kyle comes ....

Don't speak that into existence