WTF – Wests Tigers Faithful Podcast

[Jolls]

My argument on the podcast was that Luai is not delivering value over a replacement level player. His stats evidence this. You can try to counter with any argument you want but results speak for themselves.

Either he is not as good as we hoped or the Wests Tigers system/coaching etc. cannot make use of his skills.

Call me deluded and call into question my football knowledge all you want but I'm demonstrably correct. If you want to give Luai credit for the fact we are slightly performing better than last year because of a culture boost he's given the side you're the one with the shitty argument not me.

Even if I wanted to make that argument the facts are that the jolt of belief the squad got in signing him only lasts if he holds up his end of the bargain and delivers wins. If he falters, which he has, that becomes doubt, cynicism and demoralisation very fast. Other players at the club will start viewing him as overpaid, overrated and the club will back him because they've paid him a fortune and so they will scapegoat other players for poor results and evidently as per the comment above so will the fans. Which is ridiculous.

It's not Jarome Luai's fault we paid him 1.2m and he isn't able to produce the same results in our system vs. Penrith's but that isn't the argument I was making. The argument I was making is he is a bad signing that hasn't moved the needle and I await well thought through rebuttal.

I think the results speak for themselves and the cost benefit analysis provides a clear answer. I looked at this in the deep dive I did on the spine the other day. You hit the nail on the head in realtion to the quality of the player not changing but the quality of the system. I'm not hard over on Benjis as a coach not being up to speed either. If we are taking about strict performance measurements W v L then he is not performing.

What dropped out of the deep dive is that we have approached the "rebuild" arse about face. In the ideal world you would develop a dominant base (forwards) with a servicable spine to get you off the bottom of the table and then climb the ladder by adding halves, then a hooker and finally a fullback to ice the cake.

It is a system that works together - halves without a stable platform are ineffective. A class hooker does not provide you anything if your halves can't do something with the time and space they provide and the fullback can't inject themselves into the game if it is not managed and directed effectively by the halves.

Now I'm not saying we have gone about it in the wrong way as you have to pick the fruit when it is available - Api was not successful playing in a shit team, Luai isn't effective due to several deficiencies in the system etc.

All of the successful teams have good systems and a stable halves pairing. We are currently in week three of the current (hopefully long term) halves pairing and we have yet to build a pack that has parity with most of our opposition. As you aptly pointed out yesterday there is not a significant difference between high performers and the average - they hey is having enough high performers to make the system better that that used by the others.

If we switch that the coaching side of the house it is a simialar predicament - you have to purchase in what is availabe, when it is available, on the way to building a workable, high performing system.

While I get your argument that it is always if we had more go forward, more of this or more of that I don't subscribe to that approach. What we need is to identify the system we require and build towards that system. The difficulty for all of us, except maybe Benji and Richo, is that we don't know what system we are trying to build in order to measure success agaisnt that plan. Instead we go back to our experiential understanding of what works and statistics and we are impatient, especially as Tigers supporters becasue we haven't seen success in forever.

I'm trying to look at our journey as a whole and have a slower burn outlook on our progress. So the systemm and its developemt, as I see it, in priority order is:

1. the ability to maintian forward parity and establish dominace at points in time
2. a stable and workable halves combination working towards a top shelf half
3. a capable backline with defence
4. an above average hooker working towards a top shelf player
5. an above average fullback working towards a dominant fullback
6. two dominant momentum changing forwards (on rotation)
7. strike outside backs

Underpinning that is a situationally aware footballer that is able to analyse the opposition, in real time, and adapt the game plan to overcome adversity. This doesn't have to be a spine player - and a coach can perform this role - but it is much better if it is happening on the field.

Benii and Richo's system is probably a little different but I don't think it will be too far off - they may have 6 as mobile ball playing edges - but either way we are deficient in key system areas. When looking at our system I assess that we have 1, 3, 4 and 5. 2 has been destabilised and our deficiences at 6 and 7 are pretty clear for all to see. I think with this sort of model we can see where we were trying to head with Royce though.

Based on this system I had us pegged at being around 12th this year. It will depend on what we buy in to see how much of the system we can address over the off season. May and Toa could be the additional strike we need out wide with Makasini bolstering that in due course. Twal, Seyfarth and Sukkar provide decent depth and give us the ability to maintain forward parity with injuries - they are not starter level forwards though. We need a couple of momentum changers - be that through highly mobile guys with big motors or big bodies on rotation.

As for Benji - too early to judge for me as the system is in development. While the numbers aren't great they are trending up - I'm happy to let the system develop and reassess in 12 months.

 

[poopy_diaper]

You don't need to provide a solution to an organisation in order to justify criticising them for a past decision. They are supposed to be experts.

The best team in the league valued him at 800k. We knew we were paying overs unless we thought we knew better than them what his value was, or probably more to the point perceived his value as higher FOR us than it was for them.

And maybe that is correct. The problem is the expectations that sets. It puts pressure on Jarome to deliver like a top 5 player in the NRL which he has never had before. It sets the expectation of improvement in the minds of the club, fans and broader league. If Jarome came in and just utterly carved up then fantastic. But he has done the complete opposite. Now those expectations hang around his and the club's neck like a noose. The subtle difference between a 1.2m salary and an 800k salary is the weight of expectation.

Should the club have not signed him? I would have. We were desperate. Unfortunately I have also learned in realtime why it was a bad decision and I hope the club has too.

He holds all the cards too so we won't be getting off this contract unless he wants to, and he isn't getting close to 1.2m anywhere else so we are stuck with him. We can't play others ahead of him even of they are performing better. We are completely all in on this now. That is also a lesson I have learned about why it was a bad decision.

Lessons I've learned that the better clubs already have. And our club clearly hadn't.

 

[innsaneink]

Just finished the Podcast which I usually love but today’s one was a struggle. With respect to Mac his comments on Luai were some of the most nonsensical garbage i’ve ever heard on a Tigers podcast & I question what Rugby League knowledge he has if he thinks that the team would be on more of an upward trajectory if Tanah Boyd was in the halves. I understand it’s frustrating being a Tigers fan at the moment but that whole tirade was just pure delusion.

Lol thats what they want...some controversy and some talk about them/ the show.

On topic i wonder how latu would go behind the wahs pack...halves aint our problem

 

[poopy_diaper]

I think the results speak for themselves and the cost benefit analysis provides a clear answer. I looked at this in the deep dive I did on the spine the other day. You hit the nail on the head in realtion to the quality of the player not changing but the quality of the system. I'm not hard over on Benjis as a coach not being up to speed either. If we are taking about strict performance measurements W v L then he is not performing.

What dropped out of the deep dive is that we have approached the "rebuild" arse about face. In the ideal world you would develop a dominant base (forwards) with a servicable spine to get you off the bottom of the table and then climb the ladder by adding halves, then a hooker and finally a fullback to ice the cake.

It is a system that works together - halves without a stable platform are ineffective. A class hooker does not provide you anything if your halves can't do something with the time and space they provide and the fullback can't inject themselves into the game if it is not managed and directed effectively by the halves.

Now I'm not saying we have gone about it in the wrong way as you have to pick the fruit when it is available - Api was not successful playing in a shit team, Luai isn't effective due to several deficiencies in the system etc.

All of the successful teams have good systems and a stable halves pairing. We are currently in week three of the current (hopefully long term) halves pairing and we have yet to build a pack that has parity with most of our opposition. As you aptly pointed out yesterday there is not a significant difference between high performers and the average - they hey is having enough high performers to make the system better that that used by the others.

If we switch that the coaching side of the house it is a simialar predicament - you have to purchase in what is availabe, when it is available, on the way to building a workable, high performing system.

While I get your argument that it is always if we had more go forward, more of this or more of that I don't subscribe to that approach. What we need is to identify the system we require and build towards that system. The difficulty for all of us, except maybe Benji and Richo, is that we don't know what system we are trying to build in order to measure success agaisnt that plan. Instead we go back to our experiential understanding of what works and statistics and we are impatient, especially as Tigers supporters becasue we haven't seen success in forever.

I'm trying to look at our journey as a whole and have a slower burn outlook on our progress. So the systemm and its developemt, as I see it, in priority order is:

1. the ability to maintian forward parity and establish dominace at points in time
2. a stable and workable halves combination working towards a top shelf half
3. a capable backline with defence
4. an above average hooker working towards a top shelf player
5. an above average fullback working towards a dominant fullback
6. two dominant momentum changing forwards (on rotation)
7. strike outside backs

Underpinning that is a situationally aware footballer that is able to analyse the opposition, in real time, and adapt the game plan to overcome adversity. This doesn't have to be a spine player - and a coach can perform this role - but it is much better if it is happening on the field.

Benii and Richo's system is probably a little different but I don't think it will be too far off - they may have 6 as mobile ball playing edges - but either way we are deficient in key system areas. When looking at our system I assess that we have 1, 3, 4 and 5. 2 has been destabilised and our deficiences at 6 and 7 are pretty clear for all to see. I think with this sort of model we can see where we were trying to head with Royce though.

Based on this system I had us pegged at being around 12th this year. It will depend on what we buy in to see how much of the system we can address over the off season. May and Toa could be the additional strike we need out wide with Makasini bolstering that in due course. Twal, Seyfarth and Sukkar provide decent depth and give us the ability to maintain forward parity with injuries - they are not starter level forwards though. We need a couple of momentum changers - be that through highly mobile guys with big motors or big bodies on rotation.

As for Benji - too early to judge for me as the system is in development. While the numbers aren't great they are trending up - I'm happy to let the system develop and reassess in 12 months.

Frankly I have doubts that many actual NRL coaches or administrators have anywhere near as much strategic focus as you. Because they are on the clock and focused far more on short term success. We are stuck with the club til we die.

 

[poopy_diaper]

Lol thats what they want...some controversy and some talk about them/ the show.

On topic i wonder how latu would go behind the wahs pack...halves aint our problem

Haha come on Ink you've known me for 20 years you know I'm no clout chasing content creator.

 

[Hbom]

I am glad Luai is a tiger.

 

[Vicious]

Sorry if I’m getting off topic, but my understanding is the HBG agreed to appoint Richo as our CEO and agreed to his wage demands of more than double of what we would normally pay a CEO.
As part of that agreement, Richo himself advised he could and would take on extra roles such as recruitment manager.
So did we expect the HBG to pay a CEO more than double what is normally budgeted for and still pay a recruitment manager even though Richo himself advised he wanted to take on that responsibility ?

 

[Jolls]

Frankly I have doubts that many actual NRL coaches or administrators have anywhere near as much strategic focus as you. Because they are on the clock and focused far more on short term success. We are stuck with the club til we die.

I think Ponissi, Fletcher and probably Gould take that longer term approach and given Richo's backgroud and his statements regarding "the plan" we are early doors in a five year plan - that is what I have based my thinking on.

Only time will tell.

 

[innsaneink]

Either he is not as good as we hoped or the Wests Tigers system/coaching etc. cannot make use of his skills.


Weve seen what hes capable of in a good system....so.i dont think its the former.
Ive long now thought our problems are.much deeper than a recruit here and there.
*Inexperienced/poor coaching
*Weak forwards/depth
*Lack of resources to get them at their best

 

[king_sirro]

I think the results speak for themselves and the cost benefit analysis provides a clear answer. I looked at this in the deep dive I did on the spine the other day. You hit the nail on the head in realtion to the quality of the player not changing but the quality of the system. I'm not hard over on Benjis as a coach not being up to speed either. If we are taking about strict performance measurements W v L then he is not performing.

What dropped out of the deep dive is that we have approached the "rebuild" arse about face. In the ideal world you would develop a dominant base (forwards) with a servicable spine to get you off the bottom of the table and then climb the ladder by adding halves, then a hooker and finally a fullback to ice the cake.

It is a system that works together - halves without a stable platform are ineffective. A class hooker does not provide you anything if your halves can't do something with the time and space they provide and the fullback can't inject themselves into the game if it is not managed and directed effectively by the halves.

Now I'm not saying we have gone about it in the wrong way as you have to pick the fruit when it is available - Api was not successful playing in a shit team, Luai isn't effective due to several deficiencies in the system etc.

All of the successful teams have good systems and a stable halves pairing. We are currently in week three of the current (hopefully long term) halves pairing and we have yet to build a pack that has parity with most of our opposition. As you aptly pointed out yesterday there is not a significant difference between high performers and the average - they hey is having enough high performers to make the system better that that used by the others.

If we switch that the coaching side of the house it is a simialar predicament - you have to purchase in what is availabe, when it is available, on the way to building a workable, high performing system.

While I get your argument that it is always if we had more go forward, more of this or more of that I don't subscribe to that approach. What we need is to identify the system we require and build towards that system. The difficulty for all of us, except maybe Benji and Richo, is that we don't know what system we are trying to build in order to measure success agaisnt that plan. Instead we go back to our experiential understanding of what works and statistics and we are impatient, especially as Tigers supporters becasue we haven't seen success in forever.

I'm trying to look at our journey as a whole and have a slower burn outlook on our progress. So the systemm and its developemt, as I see it, in priority order is:

1. the ability to maintian forward parity and establish dominace at points in time
2. a stable and workable halves combination working towards a top shelf half
3. a capable backline with defence
4. an above average hooker working towards a top shelf player
5. an above average fullback working towards a dominant fullback
6. two dominant momentum changing forwards (on rotation)
7. strike outside backs

Underpinning that is a situationally aware footballer that is able to analyse the opposition, in real time, and adapt the game plan to overcome adversity. This doesn't have to be a spine player - and a coach can perform this role - but it is much better if it is happening on the field.

Benii and Richo's system is probably a little different but I don't think it will be too far off - they may have 6 as mobile ball playing edges - but either way we are deficient in key system areas. When looking at our system I assess that we have 1, 3, 4 and 5. 2 has been destabilised and our deficiences at 6 and 7 are pretty clear for all to see. I think with this sort of model we can see where we were trying to head with Royce though.

Based on this system I had us pegged at being around 12th this year. It will depend on what we buy in to see how much of the system we can address over the off season. May and Toa could be the additional strike we need out wide with Makasini bolstering that in due course. Twal, Seyfarth and Sukkar provide decent depth and give us the ability to maintain forward parity with injuries - they are not starter level forwards though. We need a couple of momentum changers - be that through highly mobile guys with big motors or big bodies on rotation.

As for Benji - too early to judge for me as the system is in development. While the numbers aren't great they are trending up - I'm happy to let the system develop and reassess in 12 months.

Yeah very good post mate

 

[Tom Shines]

The best team in the league valued him at 800k. We knew we were paying overs unless we thought we knew better than them what his value was, or probably more to the point perceived his value as higher FOR us than it was for them.

I think it was $700k actually … probably doesn’t help when they are paying 3-4 other guys big money …Canterbury offered him $1 million … are they bad judges like us?

 

[Tom Shines]

Sorry if I’m getting off topic, but my understanding is the HBG agreed to appoint Richo as our CEO and agreed to his wage demands of more than double of what we would normally pay a CEO.
As part of that agreement, Richo himself advised he could and would take on extra roles such as recruitment manager.
So did we expect the HBG to pay a CEO more than double what is normally budgeted for and still pay a recruitment manager even though Richo himself advised he wanted to take on that responsibility ?

Gould is paid $1mil plus to be a football manger … and Canterbury has a CEO as well handling those functions ..these guys negotiate their own deal , and it’s tough to judge them by what “normally” happens with these roles … there isn’t an award wage

Richo wasn’t just appointed to build a football team … he has had to pick up the pieces from a rabble beforehand and set up proper corporate governance..,not as sexy as winning premierships, but hopefully something that can long term improve the fortunes of the club…

Richo has a pretty unique skill set on both the football talent side, and the financial/ corporate side … that is probably going to cost some money to acquire

 

[poopy_diaper]

I think it was $700k actually … probably doesn’t help when they are paying 3-4 other guys big money …Canterbury offered him $1 million … are they bad judges like us?

Much closer to competitive.

 

[Tom Shines]

Much closer to competitive.

$200k more ? Nah that’s 20 percent Tigers tax

 

[Jolls]

Much closer to competitive.

I expect this is because their system is further along the development pathway. They are at the point of trying to inject something to differentiate then from, and provide an assymantric advantage to other top 4 teams.

We know Galvin is not the finshed product and he has a unique level of fitness. Combine that with the highly mobile forward pack the Dogs have developed and you have in sight into where the Dogs are heading with their system.

Sexton is a servicable half working behind a workhorse pack and they have strike in the centres and a pretty good guy at the back. The Dogs will be overachieving if they make the GF this year - but now that they have the system developed it is time to inject the game changers. How Galvin will fit in going forward I'm unsure - but there is a plan and they are part way through its execution. We're behind them and have invested in buiding the club reputation with quality players backing a charismatic head coach.

We are at the start of the journey and, in my view, appear to be taking a strategic approach to opening the permiership window. While results now would be great, setting us up for the longer term is of more value.

 

[Kelce68]

My argument on the podcast was that Luai is not delivering value over a replacement level player. His stats evidence this. You can try to counter with any argument you want but results speak for themselves.

Either he is not as good as we hoped or the Wests Tigers system/coaching etc. cannot make use of his skills.

False dichotomy, though, Mac.

There are several factors that might have influenced Jarome's first 14 games at the club; because let's not forget, that's the entire length of his Tigers' career so far, that are beyond just his quality or the quality of the coaching.

Continuity of combinations due to injuries/suspensions, quality around him, platform laid in the middle, teammates' execution on plays he is responsible for, teammates' willingness to contest possessions, quality of other players' positioning, etc...

Even how he's used as a playmaker. For example - early ball to Starford seems to be a priority this season, to which he's been playing well enough to capitalise on and Star's stats seem match that. But his right side half - whether is was Galvin or now Latu, don't get any statistical credit for executing on a game plan to put Star in these positions, even though the half plays a role in calling the ball, the play and executing on delivering that early ball.

Whether or not that has played a direct role in Luai's stats I don't know, but a half playing well or at least executing on a game plan, doesn't always translate to the stats sheet. In fact, certain game plans, when executed correctly, can pull T's, TA's, LB's and LBA's away from a half, in particular.

Let's not forget he's in the first year of an entirely new club and system.

All of these influences are likely to put downward pressure on a playmaker's attacking stats.

And that's not to speak of what that 1.2 has gotten us off the field (apologies if you're strictly referring to on-field output); No Luai means likely no Terrell or Taylan, possibly has us still playing the Galvin placation game, etc. Then we can talk 'culture' and the likes, etc.

And none of that is to mention his influence on defence, both on his side and in general (ironically, the Wahs game aside, he's been excellent defensively).

Whilst none of what you're saying is incorrect, I just think there's a lot of context around those numbers.

If we're still having the same discussion in mid-July next year, provided the side can get some luck in the continuity department, then 100% I'll be asking the questions with you.

 

[WestsEffTheRest]

I know you have hope and Luai is the saviour figure but I don't think it's controversial to say anything I said. It just feels terrible to hear because the implications are dire. Instead of using ad hominem argue how I'm wrong?

Jarome Luai achieving in his career what he has is no fluke. If you want to point fingers about Jarome Luais output then point fingers at the garbage coaching of Benji Marshall. If I had a $1.2 million dollar half I wouldn't be spending pre season building my attack around the 19 year old ball hog rookie (which is what Benji did) I'd be building my structures & team play around Luai. Richo spent all 2024 parading that Luai is the man, Luai is the halfback then tries to recruit Adam Reynolds on a 2 year deal. This is the problem & it's only a problem that Wests Tigers are capable of creating.

 

[Telltails]

Jarome Luai achieving in his career what he has is no fluke. If you want to point fingers about Jarome Luais output then point fingers at the garbage coaching of Benji Marshall. If I had a $1.2 million dollar half I wouldn't be spending pre season building my attack around the 19 year old ball hog rookie (which is what Benji did) I'd be building my structures & team play around Luai. Richo spent all 2024 parading that Luai is the man, Luai is the halfback then tries to recruit Adam Reynolds on a 2 year deal. This is the problem & it's only a problem that Wests Tigers are capable of creating.

The now 20 year old ball hog has just been promoted to half in a team that managed to get to the top of the table without him. So I guess Ciraldo doesn't know what he is doing either.

 

[WestsEffTheRest]

The now 20 year old ball hog has just been promoted to half in a team that managed to get to the top of the table without him. So I guess Ciraldo doesn't know what he is doing either.

Yes he's playing halfback a position he's never played before. Stroke of genius really.

 

[Vicious]

The now 20 year old ball hog has just been promoted to half in a team that managed to get to the top of the table without him. So I guess Ciraldo doesn't know what he is doing either.

Wests Tigers have plenty of problems, no doubt about that.
But I’d still rather support us than a club such as the Bulldogs who show no loyalty to anyone.