Referendum 2023

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No one is saying anything other than 'dividing' Australia which is complete bullshit. Watch if anyone remembers anything two weeks after the vote. Uneducated folk haha, hiding the undertone you hypocritical lot.
 
sparci said:
No one is saying anything other than 'dividing' Australia which is complete bullshit. Watch if anyone remembers anything two weeks after the vote. Uneducated folk haha, hiding the undertone you hypocritical lot.
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If it all gets forgotten by the end of October, then you have your proof that it wasn’t worth doing.
 
twentyforty said:
That is pretty bad. Thats in Yass isn’t it? They’ve been instructed to remove them by the AEC.
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Along with Peter Dutton being called out by the AEC to stop saying BS!

Happy for those on the left and for Peter Dutton to rightly be told to shut up when they are doing weird stuff.
 
Re Paul Keating quote..
"[on taxation] If you don't understand it, don't vote for it; if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"

Yep and the GST has been so SO bad hasn't it?

Lets work a Wests Tigers analogy, Which consultants do you want?
Yes - "people who will tell it how it is".

No - "Justin Pascoe is the Best General manager ever" (Consultant then proceeds to collect their 6 figure sum.)

That's all the voice is about. We have had Aboriginal voices in Parliament before, just whenever they say something the government does not like. They get thrown out.

That's all it is, but hey News media has to bash it worse then they do the Tigers!
 
crazycat said:
Re Paul Keating quote..
"[on taxation] If you don't understand it, don't vote for it; if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"

Yep and the GST has been so SO bad hasn't it?

Lets work a Wests Tigers analogy, Which consultants do you want?
Yes - "people who will tell it how it is".

No - "Justin Pascoe is the Best General manager ever" (Consultant then proceeds to collect their 6 figure sum.)

That's all the voice is about. We have had Aboriginal voices in Parliament before, just whenever they say something the government does not like. They get thrown out.

That's all it is, but hey News media has to bash it worse then they do the Tigers!
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Another really poor take.
This issue deserves quality arguments on both sides.
Yours aren’t helping anyone.
 
crazycat said:
Re Paul Keating quote..
"[on taxation] If you don't understand it, don't vote for it; if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"

Yep and the GST has been so SO bad hasn't it?

Lets work a Wests Tigers analogy, Which consultants do you want?
Yes - "people who will tell it how it is".

No - "Justin Pascoe is the Best General manager ever" (Consultant then proceeds to collect their 6 figure sum.)

That's all the voice is about. We have had Aboriginal voices in Parliament before, just whenever they say something the government does not like. They get thrown out.

That's all it is, but hey News media has to bash it worse then they do the Tigers!
Click to expand...
Well actually now that you mention it, the GST is shown to be a regressive tax because people with the lowest incomes will pay relatively more than the people with the highest incomes, with members of the population such as pensioners, the unemployed, self funded retirees and indigenous people being even further disadvantaged.

Add to that the fact that the GST was originally supposed to do away with many other taxes such as stamp duty but we are still being ripped off by those taxes that never went away.

Then there is the usual shit fight over the GST carve up among states.

Like the man said, "If you don't understand it, don't vote for it, if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"
 
I have lurked in the background of this thread for ages. I thought I may find some pearls of wisdom that would help me make my mind up. Thanks to all who have shared their opinions. I found some interesting perspectives and also identified a lot of misinformation and hot air being blown about the place. The real problem that we are facing as a nation and as individuals is that there is merit on both sides of the argument, less the extremists on both sides of the fence.

For many this is not a black or white decision - this is all about the grey areas. You don’t have to dig deep to find conflicting opinions from some of the best legal and political minds: is there a lack of detail or is there enough to guide future generations; is this segregation of the nation or recognition of the traditional inhabitants; are we protecting the national interests or are we leaders? So, is Yes or No, right or wrong?

I think most agree that the original inhabitants of the land should be recognised; but when it comes to the voice to parliament, I don’t think there is a right or wrong. The area is grey in law and it is grey in the political spectrum. For many people operating in the grey is uncomfortable; they want to hold onto something solid. The name calling and sensational accusations from both sides does nothing to resolve the grey because it is opinion – it has never been tested.

We are shaped our upbringing and the experiences we have through life’s journey. My views are heavily influenced by what I have experienced as a career soldier. While I experiencing some of the worst humanity has inflicted upon itself, for the most part the journey has been privileged. I have lived, worked and travelled around some of the most remote parts of Australia and worked hand in hand with NORFORCE and indigenous communities. I have seen first-hand the wastage of taxpayer money through projects thought out by aid agencies and the Commonwealth from bubbles in Canberra. However, I have also seen some brilliant work done by the Army Aboriginal Community Assistance Programme in consultation with remote communities and other worthwhile initiatives established by non-Government Organisations . This is not restricted to Australia; the exact same dichotomy has been seen clearing ordnance in the Solomon Islands, clearing mines in Bosnia I Herzegovina and during the pointy end, and post conflict era, of Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As a result of these experiences, I know that there are two sides to every argument and more often than not neither of them are right – but neither are they wrong. There has to be give and take in order for things to progress – one side never has the right answer. At some point we have to make a decision from within the grey and get on with it.

I have had conversations with Aboriginal friends - some supporting one side - some the other, some undecided, some extreme - most not. Same can be said for the non-indigenous people I know - be they from Convict stock, Free settlers or Asian/European decent.

The choice is not a simple one as the extreme views being trotted out by the media and the fringe idiots have clouded the issues. The one thing I am confident of is that we will all dutifully cast our votes on the 14th and most will go back to whatever inclusive, non-inclusive, racist or non-racist views we had before the vote; the media will sensationalise the result no matter which way it goes and the politicians will continue calling each other names and threatening to tear their party dresses.

Afterwards there will remain a lot of untested areas of law that will make yes or no a struggle. The reality is that from within the grey we will have made a decision to take a protective approach and keep on doing what we have been doing (which isn’t great) or take a leap of faith (which is risky).

What lies ahead is not what the Yes or No arguments have postulated. The path ahead lies somewhere between the two arguments. I see this as an opportunity to progress as opposed to stagnate; so for me it will be a yes despite knowing that making it work will require a bit of faith, an ounce of luck and a bucketload of leadership. If it is a no, so be it, the sun will continue to shine!
 
twentyforty said:
If it all gets forgotten by the end of October, then you have your proof that it wasn’t worth doing.
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We will have to put up with the mandatory riots and destruction of buildings if the idiot left lose so be prepared for the weep and gnashing of teeth in the streets
 
There is a very good article about the "Voice" referendum on the BBC website today.I do not know how to link to it but would definately suggest that everyone who has not voted yet has a read of it.
 
hank37w said:
Well actually now that you mention it, the GST is shown to be a regressive tax because people with the lowest incomes will pay relatively more than the people with the highest incomes, with members of the population such as pensioners, the unemployed, self funded retirees and indigenous people being even further disadvantaged.

Add to that the fact that the GST was originally supposed to do away with many other taxes such as stamp duty but we are still being ripped off by those taxes that never went away.

Then there is the usual shit fight over the GST carve up among states.

Like the man said, "If you don't understand it, don't vote for it, if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"
Click to expand...
I was mentioning that the Paul Keating quote was totally taken out of context. He was talking about the GST, not anything Aboriginal.

Also the GST was never ever meant to replace stamp duty. Stamp duty is a state tax, not federal.

Here is what Paul Keating has said:
"We committed the murders. We took the children from their mothers."

This happened to the Aboriginal people. This happened to them because they were Aboriginal. This happened as a part of a policy called "white Australia".

Lets be honest. If people are going to quote Paul Keating, be honest. Tax policy is not the voice. Here is what he has had to say about the voice with Noel Pearson (Noel was Tony Abbott's main man on Aboriginal policy).
www.theguardian.com

Labor must not betray Indigenous voters by delaying voice to parliament, Keating and Pearson say

Former prime minister and Indigenous leader say that if the ALP wins government, it must hold a referendum in its first term
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Tucker said:
Another really poor take.
This issue deserves quality arguments on both sides.
Yours aren’t helping anyone.
Click to expand...
It's a great take:
[Lets work a Wests Tigers analogy, Which consultants do you want?
Yes - "people who will tell it how it is".

No - "Justin Pascoe is the Best General manager ever" (Consultant then proceeds to collect their 6 figure sum.)]

You could also say:
Yes - "We need to make changes in our club to become successful again."

No - "Lee Hagipantelis and the Wests Tigers board is doing a wonderful job. The onfield results are in no way our fault" (Invoice for consultant sent in mail).

People want to complicate this. It is very simple, Do you want the Aboriginal people having authentic and truthful representatives in Canberra?
Canberra is a bubble, it is a world of it's own. All the Aboriginal people have asked for is "a voice", to say to whatever government how it really is in the Aboriginal communities.

^it's that simple.
 
crazycat said:
I was mentioning that the Paul Keating quote was totally taken out of context. He was talking about the GST, not anything Aboriginal.

Also the GST was never ever meant to replace stamp duty. Stamp duty is a state tax, not federal.

Here is what Paul Keating has said:
"We committed the murders. We took the children from their mothers."

This happened to the Aboriginal people. This happened to them because they were Aboriginal. This happened as a part of a policy called "white Australia".

Lets be honest. If people are going to quote Paul Keating, be honest. Tax policy is not the voice. Here is what he has had to say about the voice with Noel Pearson (Noel was Tony Abbott's main man on Aboriginal policy).
www.theguardian.com

Labor must not betray Indigenous voters by delaying voice to parliament, Keating and Pearson say

Former prime minister and Indigenous leader say that if the ALP wins government, it must hold a referendum in its first term
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
The Paul Keating quote may very well have been taken out of context but still very good advice none the less. If you don't understand it, don't vote for it; if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"

The detail has not been forthcoming so why would you vote for it and even if you have some idealistic thoughts about what it might be, why would you risk it if you cannot be sure what might be coming, especially if it is to be enshrined in the constitution and cannot be undone.

Why would you risk it?

Yes the GST is a tax collected by the Feds and is distributed to the States and many would argue that it is distributed inequitably among the states, especially by the states that receive a smaller per capita share than their constituents contribute.

You are correct in saying that the GST is not the VOICE but just like some could argue about the inequities that the GST creates the same could be said about the VOICE in that it provides additional access to Government for a very small minority of the population that is not available to the majority of citizens.

Let's face it, Albo is an idiot, instead of following good advice and legislating to trial a VOICE so that everyone could see how this may possibly work, without out making all these other bloated Agencies and Bodies that currently exist more responsible for the billions of dollars that they currently waste, this was doomed to failure and all he has done is make a nation more divided than it has ever been.

Paul Keating may very well have said: "We committed the murders. We took the children from their mothers."

Well he may have but I didn't and neither did anyone that I know, I mean how long are we going to be made to feel guilty about something you or I did not do?

Sure we can look back in time and agree that many things that occurred were wrong and do our best to make sure that these things don't happen again, but at the end of the day we have to move on.

Do we still hold the current generations of Japanese or German people responsible for what happened in the World Wars when none of the current generation were alive when various atrocities happened.

My Polish Grand Parents on my Mother's side were killed by Ukrainian Nationalists in 1943 along with tens of thousands of other Poles in what is now regarded as an act of genocide.

My parents were forced to work in German labour camps in World War II, but do I blame or hold the current generation of German and Ukrainian citizens responsible for what happened?

As far as Noel Pearson is concerned, he is a very angry radical who has only just recently put on a conciliatory front for the media. Will be interesting to see how he and his academic mates react after the referendum when the result is handed down regardless of which way the vote goes.
 
crazycat said:
People want to complicate this. It is very simple, Do you want the Aboriginal people having authentic and truthful representatives in Canberra?
Canberra is a bubble, it is a world of it's own. All the Aboriginal people have asked for is "a voice", to say to whatever government how it really is in the Aboriginal communities.

^it's that simple.
Click to expand...
Canberra is neither a world of its own nor does it operate within a bubble.
It is a meeting place where ELECTED representatives from every part of this country congregate occasionally to thrash out and vote upon policies and bills that pertain to us all.
These representatives are not a collection of omnipotent beings. They aren’t extremely wise guardians of the people. Their opinions and directions often mirror the wants and needs of their constituents. They already receive submissions from special interest groups, consultants and lobbyists. Aboriginal voices are amongst these and have been for decades. It is disingenuous to say they are not.
What the Voice will do is put Aboriginal lobbyists and consultants at the head of the line. Unfortunately these members are unlikely to be democratically appointed and will likely be activists. They won’t have the special interests of those who truly need help at heart. They will be after power.
Additionally, communities full of people struggling to keep their heads above water will be further divided as those inhabitants who already receive special treatment from the government will get another leg up that the rest don’t.
At its very core is unfairness, but I suspect it may be even worse when those activists use this as a stepping stone to attain power that can’t be matched.
I’ve been searching for a reason to vote Yes and am struggling to do so.
 
hank37w said:
The Paul Keating quote may very well have been taken out of context but still very good advice none the less. If you don't understand it, don't vote for it; if you do understand it, you'd never vote for it!"

The detail has not been forthcoming so why would you vote for it and even if you have some idealistic thoughts about what it might be, why would you risk it if you cannot be sure what might be coming, especially if it is to be enshrined in the constitution and cannot be undone.

Why would you risk it?

Yes the GST is a tax collected by the Feds and is distributed to the States and many would argue that it is distributed inequitably among the states, especially by the states that receive a smaller per capita share than their constituents contribute.

You are correct in saying that the GST is not the VOICE but just like some could argue about the inequities that the GST creates the same could be said about the VOICE in that it provides additional access to Government for a very small minority of the population that is not available to the majority of citizens.

Let's face it, Albo is an idiot, instead of following good advice and legislating to trial a VOICE so that everyone could see how this may possibly work, without out making all these other bloated Agencies and Bodies that currently exist more responsible for the billions of dollars that they currently waste, this was doomed to failure and all he has done is make a nation more divided than it has ever been.

Paul Keating may very well have said: "We committed the murders. We took the children from their mothers."

Well he may have but I didn't and neither did anyone that I know, I mean how long are we going to be made to feel guilty about something you or I did not do?

Sure we can look back in time and agree that many things that occurred were wrong and do our best to make sure that these things don't happen again, but at the end of the day we have to move on.

Do we still hold the current generations of Japanese or German people responsible for what happened in the World Wars when none of the current generation were alive when various atrocities happened.

My Polish Grand Parents on my Mother's side were killed by Ukrainian Nationalists in 1943 along with tens of thousands of other Poles in what is now regarded as an act of genocide.

My parents were forced to work in German labour camps in World War II, but do I blame or hold the current generation of German and Ukrainian citizens responsible for what happened?

As far as Noel Pearson is concerned, he is a very angry radical who has only just recently put on a conciliatory front for the media. Will be interesting to see how he and his academic mates react after the referendum when the result is handed down regardless of which way the vote goes.
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Well said Hank.
 
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