OFFICIAL Pathways - KOE General Discussion

[Bus 2 Terrigal]

Remember the olden days when the argument against amalgamation through the Grades,
What about Parra, Dragons, Manly, Souths, Canberra, Sharks, Roosters, Knights etc.
"It doesn't bother them that they have a differently branded feeder team"
Well, History tells us that it did bother them....

All but 1 team have since woken up and have common branding through the Grades.

The Sharks probably would have long ago as well, If they didn't spend every other year looking for a Major Sponsor or scraping together money to finish the work down at Under Construction Park

Nah, it didn’t “bother them”.
Parramatta, Souths and Cronulla linked with outside feeder teams for financial reasons, to cut costs. The others- Canberra and Easts and Manly have done it in the recent past to gain access to new territory. I don’t recall Newcastle doing it at all (although it may have slipped my mind).

I reckon this trend will ebb and flow into the future. You’re correct that at the moment only Wests (Western Suburbs), Cronulla (Newtown) and Melbourne (North Sydney) are fielding teams in the NSW Cup that have alternate branding.

Go down to a third grade level and the practice becomes more widespread - Glebe, Ryde Eastwood, St Mary’s, Wenty etc

 

[BlackWhiteGold]

Interesting that Cohen Benson has appeared in a few articles of late highlighting him as one of the club's rising stars coming through.

IMO he's ok but what what am I missing here??? He'd be ranked about 20th for me in our most promising 18/19yos imo. He is managed by Richo's son though!!!

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/teen-sensations-your-nrl-clubs-next-star-of-the-future/news-story/bcb0fd4c6a4351471f792ec7e4e7dc3c

There’s a highly publicised opening for a five-eighth at the Wests Tigers, and Balmain SG Ball talent Cohen Benson could be the answer in the future. He has been a standout since coming across from Penrith, possessing all the skills you want in a half including a fantastic kicking game and the ability to set up his outside men.

 

[Bellend]

I disagree with the state of team. The team this year and last year has largely been made up of players outside of top 30/dev contracts, particularly the forwards and the organising half. Yet they're up against teams who are stacked with top 30/dev each week.

Break it down for 2025:
1 top 30/dev middle - Kit Laulilii (injured)
1 top 30/dev edge - Porter (Sukkar now regularly part of the NRL squad).
0 top 30/dev halves - Falls and Mapapalangi

The state of the WT top 30 + development roster:
35 players (1 spot available)
Olam and Klemmer gone, replaced by Hope.
Matamua and Tumeth playing for feeder clubs.
Craig, Saukuru play Flegg, Makasini playing schoolboy rugby.
Skelton, Latu Fainu, Pole, Luke & KIt Laulilii currently injured medium term, and Naden and Staines part of that earlier in season too.

So out of the 36 players in top 30/dev, the club has been using about 25 to fill NRL 18, plus 7-8 left over in reserve grade each week, and the quality of the 7-8 is debatable. This team has been using about 10 players each week outside of top 30/dev. Opposition clubs in reserve grade are stacked with top 30/dev. In my opinion, some of the guys on peanuts and full-time jobs have been outplaying the WT top 30/dev players. That shouldn't be the case.

Alarmingly for the club, and it was in a similar situation last season, there are no depth props/backrowers in top 30/dev putting pressure on those selected for NRL each week. These guys are broken down and fatigued going by the last couple of weeks, but Benji genuinely has no one to replace them with. The weekend's NRL bench was Naden, Sukkar, Bird and Sione Fainu. I don't think you're going to win many NRL games with that balance on the bench. So can you imagine what's left over for reserve grade?

Be careful about making a one sentence blanket statements about a coach's ability. I think this is all too common around here. Analyse the situation.

@Jolls and @BlackWhiteGold - keep up the great work. I don't post too much but I enjoy reading your contributions.

if: Be careful about making a one sentence blanket statements about a coach's ability. I think this is all too common around here. Analyse the situation. What i have personally seen at training and watching some of the games there is not a distinctive pattern shown in attack or defense, player skill levels have not shown they are learning or really progressing. Maybe it is because the way things have been put in place but from above but something has to change.

 

[innsaneink]

Gotta wonder how much this Magpies/Wests

if: Be careful about making a one sentence blanket statements about a coach's ability. I think this is all too common around here. Analyse the situation. What i have personally seen at training and watching some of the games there is not a distinctive pattern shown in attack or defense, player skill levels have not shown they are learning or really progressing. Maybe it is because the way things have been put in place but from above but something has to change.

You watch reserve grade training,,?
Thats keen i.must say

 

[Jolls]

Fair enough. I've barely seen another fan when I've been to NRL training, which is admittedly only a handful of times in the Benji era. I'm surprised people would go to watch reserve grade/ron massey training to be honest. I don't know where or when they train.

Definitely agree with you and @Jolls that there should be an overarching club philosophy from NRL downstream to lower grades. I don't watch much below Flegg, but from some posters here, it appears every grade does their own thing, which probably isn't the way to implement a structured development program to instil a club DNA. The good systems like Melbourne, Penrith, and now Canterbury, are tested with the 'next man up' mentality and are largely successful because of their systematic approach to development. But the implementation of this is above the individual coaches, and requires 'hands-on' NRL head coach/assistants, or a key development figure in the club to feed the NRL head coach's system down the grades. I don't think Wests Tigers currently have this person or role.

I couldn't find anything on the development of coaches when I did the deep dive a few weeks ago. It just makes sense - the good cubs have a system of systems so that the day to day just gets done. If systems can free up time and effort we can focus on developing players, coaches and pathways.

To say that every player in the system has a pathway mapped through to the NRL, while a great achievement, is just a piece of paper with milestones. It becomes useful when each player is developed to achieve those milestones - this comes down to the coaching staff having the knowledge, skills and attitude required to do that. You don't just come in from coaching U12's as a mother or father with. It takes time and effort, after hours to get there. If we take the time to develop the coaches and the players, in a system designed to get us from X to NRL, then it becomes a powerful tool.

 

[Bellend]

Gotta wonder how much this Magpies/Wests

You watch reserve grade training,,?
Thats keen i.must say

No happen couple of times be in the area that they were training does not happen very often thank you know what.

 

[batboy]

Nah, it didn’t “bother them”.
Parramatta, Souths and Cronulla linked with outside feeder teams for financial reasons, to cut costs. The others- Canberra and Easts and Manly have done it in the recent past to gain access to new territory. I don’t recall Newcastle doing it at all (although it may have slipped my mind).

I reckon this trend will ebb and flow into the future. You’re correct that at the moment only Wests (Western Suburbs), Cronulla (Newtown) and Melbourne (North Sydney) are fielding teams in the NSW Cup that have alternate branding.

Go down to a third grade level and the practice becomes more widespread - Glebe, Ryde Eastwood, St Mary’s, Wenty etc

If it didn’t bother them - why do all those teams now have aligned reserve grade sides. They’ve all at some point mentioned how it didn’t make sense to have reserve graders playing for a different team in different colours.

Knights reserves were the central coast centurions for a time.

 

[Bus 2 Terrigal]

Knights reserves were the central coast centurions for a time.

The Centurions, yes, I remember, about a dozen years ago.
It was an attempt to shore up the Coast.
They then reverted to a Knights branding through the grades policy and this enabled the Roosters to sneak into Wyong.

Newcastle nabbed Bradman Best but the bulk of the Central Coast juniors come through the Roosters system - Connor Watson, Sandon Smith etc

 

[Bus 2 Terrigal]

If it didn’t bother them - why do all those teams now have aligned reserve grade sides. They’ve all at some point mentioned how it didn’t make sense to have reserve graders playing for a different team in different colours.

As I previously mentioned, it makes sense when there is a financial advantage. I would guess that when the Wenty/Parra arrangement dissolved it wasn’t because the Eels were “bothered” running around in black & white, but rather Wenty decided to pull back on their outlay.

A similar thing happed up here on the Coast five or six years ago when Wyong pulled the pin on their NSW Cup engagement. It had nothing to do with the Roosters wanting a red, white and blue reserve grade team - it was all about Wyong redirecting their rugby league investment into the local comp (and ultimately joining the Newcastle com).

The Manly/Blacktown union was a Scott Fulton initiative and we all know what happened to Scotty. Canberra/Mounties not sure what happened there - maybe tyranny of distance out weighed whatever savings Canberra were making on the deal.

I disagree with your argument that clubs were bothered on some kind of principled tribal level. As I said earlier, I think the strategy will ebb and flow. If the savings are sizeable enough clubs will farm out there second tier teams. It only ever “makes sense” in rugby league club land if the bottom line says ‘YES’

 

[batboy]

As I previously mentioned, it makes sense when there is a financial advantage. I would guess that when the Wenty/Parra arrangement dissolved it wasn’t because the Eels were “bothered” running around in black & white, but rather Wenty decided to pull back on their outlay.

A similar thing happed up here on the Coast five or six years ago when Wyong pulled the pin on their NSW Cup engagement. It had nothing to do with the Roosters wanting a red, white and blue reserve grade team - it was all about Wyong redirecting their rugby league investment into the local comp (and ultimately joining the Newcastle com).

The Manly/Blacktown union was a Scott Fulton initiative and we all know what happened to Scotty. Canberra/Mounties not sure what happened there - maybe tyranny of distance out weighed whatever savings Canberra were making on the deal.

I disagree with your argument that clubs were bothered on some kind of principled tribal level. As I said earlier, I think the strategy will ebb and flow. If the savings are sizeable enough clubs will farm out there second tier teams. It only ever “makes sense” in rugby league club land if the bottom line says ‘YES’

I could dig out the articles if I could be bothered, But I can promise you there's been more than a few clubs that have mentioned it when introducing their own reserve grade sides and moving away from the likes of Mounties, Wenty and such is because they want a club aligned reserve grade side
- and they wanted full control of it.

The savings are certainly considered - But when weighed haven't factored much in the wash up.
As evidenced in basically every club introducing a like branded reserve grade side.
Even our side - If not for a few old sqwarking Magpie Die hards flooding the boards,
We'd be Wests Tigers...
Richo already has also made mention of aligning the brand from memory.

 

[Lestronge]

I disagree with the state of team. The team this year and last year has largely been made up of players outside of top 30/dev contracts, particularly the forwards and the organising half. Yet they're up against teams who are stacked with top 30/dev each week.

Break it down for 2025:
1 top 30/dev middle - Kit Laulilii (injured)
1 top 30/dev edge - Porter (Sukkar now regularly part of the NRL squad).
0 top 30/dev halves - Falls and Mapapalangi

The state of the WT top 30 + development roster:
35 players (1 spot available)
Olam and Klemmer gone, replaced by Hope.
Matamua and Tumeth playing for feeder clubs.
Craig, Saukuru play Flegg, Makasini playing schoolboy rugby.
Skelton, Latu Fainu, Pole, Luke & KIt Laulilii currently injured medium term, and Naden and Staines part of that earlier in season too.

So out of the 36 players in top 30/dev, the club has been using about 25 to fill NRL 18, plus 7-8 left over in reserve grade each week, and the quality of the 7-8 is debatable. This team has been using about 10 players each week outside of top 30/dev. Opposition clubs in reserve grade are stacked with top 30/dev. In my opinion, some of the guys on peanuts and full-time jobs have been outplaying the WT top 30/dev players. That shouldn't be the case.

Alarmingly for the club, and it was in a similar situation last season, there are no depth props/backrowers in top 30/dev putting pressure on those selected for NRL each week. These guys are broken down and fatigued going by the last couple of weeks, but Benji genuinely has no one to replace them with. The weekend's NRL bench was Naden, Sukkar, Bird and Sione Fainu. I don't think you're going to win many NRL games with that balance on the bench. So can you imagine what's left over for reserve grade?

Be careful about making a one sentence blanket statements about a coach's ability. I think this is all too common around here. Analyse the situation.

@Jolls and @BlackWhiteGold - keep up the great work. I don't post too much but I enjoy reading your contributions.

I don’t understand this statement . The dogs have a reserve grade team full of players I’ve barely even heard of . Very little were prized juniors , and more importantly most either don’t have a top 30 contract/ have progressed enough to get one .
When you look at players like Tumeth and Matamua , I’ve been very consistent on them having not progressed thier game , and it being a fair chunk thier own fault. .
But to imply that the reserve grade coach has little accountability because he doesn’t have the cattle , when every single team has even less star juniors and talent in thier team , is just weak minded IMO.
He’s had 2 years with a squad primarily made up of jersey flegg and lower end KOE/ Q cup talent . I’ll grant you that .
But so does everyone . The lack of growth in these players , and development is as much in the club , which really means the coaching and training staff they deal with more regularly , than anyone else .
I watched Gardiner , a nobody plucked from school teaching do far more with just as little cattle .
If you as a coach need the best cattle to succeed and it’s your only way to succeed , then you’re not a very good coach .
Because in just about every sport 95% of the coaches are going to have inferior talent , by the nature of things . And it’s just regularly a given that a coach of a team with inferior talent will win above teams with more talent . Systems , coaching , belief , comraderie , all play a factor and nearly to a point all sit firmly in the remit of a coaches responsibility.
The teams not winning , they look disjointed , lack belief , and in sync. Thats 💯 the coaches responsibility , and ultimately thier fault .
Ability has nothing to do with the above . Or reputations of being in a top 30

 

[Vicious]

I don’t understand this statement . The dogs have a reserve grade team full of players I’ve barely even heard of . Very little were prized juniors , and more importantly most either don’t have a top 30 contract/ have progressed enough to get one .
When you look at players like Tumeth and Matamua , I’ve been very consistent on them having not progressed thier game , and it being a fair chunk thier own fault. .
But to imply that the reserve grade coach has little accountability because he doesn’t have the cattle , when every single team has even less star juniors and talent in thier team , is just weak minded IMO.
He’s had 2 years with a squad primarily made up of jersey flegg and lower end KOE/ Q cup talent . I’ll grant you that .
But so does everyone . The lack of growth in these players , and development is as much in the club , which really means the coaching and training staff they deal with more regularly , than anyone else .
I watched Gardiner , a nobody plucked from school teaching do far more with just as little cattle .
If you as a coach need the best cattle to succeed and it’s your only way to succeed , then you’re not a very good coach .
Because in just about every sport 95% of the coaches are going to have inferior talent , by the nature of things . And it’s just regularly a given that a coach of a team with inferior talent will win above teams with more talent . Systems , coaching , belief , comraderie , all play a factor and nearly to a point all sit firmly in the remit of a coaches responsibility.
The teams not winning , they look disjointed , lack belief , and in sync. Thats 💯 the coaches responsibility , and ultimately thier fault .
Ability has nothing to do with the above . Or reputations of being in a top 30

Matamua and Tumeth were both much better players at age 19 than they are now at age 22.
Is that purely on them or does the club play some part in their development?
They are just 2 examples, plenty of other fit into this sane scenario,

 

[Bus 2 Terrigal]

I could dig out the articles if I could be bothered, But I can promise you there's been more than a few clubs that have mentioned it when introducing their own reserve grade sides and moving away from the likes of Mounties, Wenty and such is because they want a club aligned reserve grade side
- and they wanted full control of it.

The savings are certainly considered - But when weighed haven't factored much in the wash up.
As evidenced in basically every club introducing a like branded reserve grade side.
Even our side - If not for a few old sqwarking Magpie Die hards flooding the boards,
We'd be Wests Tigers...
Richo already has also made mention of aligning the brand from memory.

“Club aligned” & “full control” are interesting observations.

Do you not see our current second grade team as club aligned?

The whole show is overseen by the same Wests Ashfield boss and I’m fairly certain Alan Fallah or Leo Epifania don’t select the NSW Cup team each week.

I’d be staggered if Benji doesn’t have the final say on matters he deems important. For example if he wanted to see Matamua playing lock or Mason tried at five eighth, you suggesting it wouldn’t happen.

The whole argument is bogus. Let the Wests faithful enjoy their Lidcombe Oval games. It makes no difference to the success or failure of the NRL campaign.

With regards Richo- the bloke says a lot of things. When he first got the gig I remember he said the club should be based in the south west, more recently he said we’re ditching Campbelltown. Richo says a lot of things and mentions even more ... 🥴

I’ve included a lovely pic of a few, not so old, squawking Magpies from last Sunday’s game - Carn Wests 👍

 

[diedpretty]

Remember the olden days when the argument against amalgamation through the Grades,
What about Parra, Dragons, Manly, Souths, Canberra, Sharks, Roosters, Knights etc.
"It doesn't bother them that they have a differently branded feeder team"
Well, History tells us that it did bother them....

All but 1 team have since woken up and have common branding through the Grades.

The Sharks probably would have long ago as well, If they didn't spend every other year looking for a Major Sponsor or scraping together money to finish the work down at Under Construction Park

And only 1 of those sides is also a joint venture

 

[Merlot]

“Club aligned” & “full control” are interesting observations.

Do you not see our current second grade team as club aligned?

The whole show is overseen by the same Wests Ashfield boss and I’m fairly certain Alan Fallah or Leo Epifania don’t select the NSW Cup team each week.

I’d be staggered if Benji doesn’t have the final say on matters he deems important. For example if he wanted to see Matamua playing lock or Mason tried at five eighth, you suggesting it wouldn’t happen.

The whole argument is bogus. Let the Wests faithful enjoy their Lidcombe Oval games. It makes no difference to the success or failure of the NRL campaign.

With regards Richo- the bloke says a lot of things. When he first got the gig I remember he said the club should be based in the south west, more recently he said we’re ditching Campbelltown. Richo says a lot of things and mentions even more ... 🥴

I’ve included a lovely pic of a few, not so old, squawking Magpies from last Sunday’s game - Carn Wests 👍

something for you n BB to chew over. way back when (90s-20oo?) Manly had a feeder team in QLD as did others, they were told to pull their heads in and come home ,concerns were raised about the NSWRL top grade dying of thru lack of numbers , Also have it straight from the horse's mouth from a strong regional club that being aligned to an NRL club starts well until 1 day you wake up realizing your just stumping up to be their whipping boys. Salute

 

[Lestronge]

Three posts down, I also elaborate on systems which roster and recruitment are all a part of. Canterbury brought in Ciraldo, who arguably developed systems at Penrith with Gould for nearly a decade.

So are you saying a coach in one grade should be installing his own systems and siloed from other grades? Because this is what you are implying with the comment "Systems , coaching , belief , comraderie , all play a factor and nearly to a point all sit firmly in the remit of a coaches responsibility."

Last 3 seasons in senior grades:
NRL have three consecutive wooden spoons from 3 different head coaches.
NSW Cup have one wooden spoon from one coach, and 2nd to last, and 3rd to last finish from another coach.
Flegg have a wooden spoon from a coach who took them to finals the year before, and missed finals with another coach last season who appears to be moved on mid-season this year.

And that's not mentioning Balmain's winless season last year, and Magpies missing finals with decent teams the last couple of years too.

Do you perhaps not deduce from all of this that the overall football operations (philosophy, coaching structure/system, and recruiting, multiple teams in one grade) at the club are likely all issues at the moment, and need an overhaul?

Sure, get rid of (yet) another coach from a grade. You're just replacing another cog in the machine, not fixing the machine itself.

The club doesn't appear to have a position of an experienced football coach/director who's role it is to systemise the coaching, development program, and recruiting at the club. Furthermore, it still has deadwood in the top 30/dev roster from Sheens/Mcdonnell/Fulton era who seem to be outplayed by ron massey players in reserve grade.

I didn’t say any of that . I’m saying you’re scape goating his underperforming teams , where ultimately he’s responsible .
I get it’s difficult to find continuity at a level where players often view it as a transit lounge/ pit stop on thier way to some where else .
But that’s my point . Other coaches can do it. I don’t think he’s been anywhere near good enough . He needs to be better . The club needs him to be better , to apply pressure to first grade .
What a load of shit , blaming it on the systems , of the club .
As for the SG- ball Balmain team , everyone knows what was going on there re. Nepotism and the coaches penchant to picking from a certain ethnic pool , to his own demise .
Absolutely scape goating . You’re obviously related to him in some capacity.
The disjointed nature of his teams , and the lack of buy in / rudderless play , is his fault completely . There’s no one to blame for the lack of connectivity in the playing group .
It’s his responsibility. And he’s failing at it .
It’s a hard job . I get it . Probably the hardest level to coach at because of the fluidity of the roster throughout the season , blooding players , dropped players , players being trialled at other positions etc.
but we still need results . And he’s not delivering .

 

[Lestronge]

I could dig out the articles if I could be bothered, But I can promise you there's been more than a few clubs that have mentioned it when introducing their own reserve grade sides and moving away from the likes of Mounties, Wenty and such is because they want a club aligned reserve grade side
- and they wanted full control of it.

The savings are certainly considered - But when weighed haven't factored much in the wash up.
As evidenced in basically every club introducing a like branded reserve grade side.
Even our side - If not for a few old sqwarking Magpie Die hards flooding the boards,
We'd be Wests Tigers...
Richo already has also made mention of aligning the brand from memory.

It was one of the metrics that came out when Penrith did thier internal review , which came from EPL before that , that clubs benefit hugely when grades all train together and wear the same jersey throughout the grades .
Gus was/ is big on the concept of the juniors training and looking up and seeing the nrl training on the other field/ gym etc. It was a huge visual aid .

 

[Demps]

Thoughts on Luke Jack ?

Kid had a decent game on the weekend.

Junior maroons rep in 2022.
Played a few games in Q cup for the Blackhawks.

Hes down as a lock but played backrow for us.
Seems on the smaller side though at 179cm tall.

 

[Merlot]

Thoughts on Luke Jack ?

Kid had a decent game on the weekend.

Junior maroons rep in 2022.
Played a few games in Q cup for the Blackhawks.

Hes down as a lock but played backrow for us.
Seems on the smaller side though at 179cm tall.

pathways is puzzling ,always seems to be someone new in a different poz each week Kid has potential

 

[batboy]

It was one of the metrics that came out when Penrith did thier internal review , which came from EPL before that , that clubs benefit hugely when grades all train together and wear the same jersey throughout the grades .
Gus was/ is big on the concept of the juniors training and looking up and seeing the nrl training on the other field/ gym etc. It was a huge visual aid .

I'm sure there's plenty of measurables - Performance, Culture and Marketing...
After all, 10-15 years ago most reserve grade sides had a different feeder team club.
Now there's barely any.

My point is based purely on common sense.