America - Gun Control

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And before he killed 26 more.

Well given the guy shot himself after he ran of the road I am not sure where you are going with that. When the neighbor opened up at him he was already making his escape.

But given Texas has exceptional relaxed gun laws, and openly encourages people to be armed. Good to see the more guns answer fail so miserably.
 
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-And a government cannot possibly raid the properties of potentially 250 million people when it has no idea who owns these rapid fire guns. Logistically speaking it is nearly impossible to conduct.

Oh and why is that? Because the NRA has successfully resisted every effort over the last 30 years to create some sort of accountability.

Talk about a self full filling prophecy.

You want the government to raid everyones homes MG?
Think about what you are saying you dope.
 
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http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/debunked-americas-biggest-gun-control-myth/news-story/8363983181e849f1b25c891b3b6a6cca

Here's so more figures and graphs for Munk, from today's news.

Lol mate stop quoting news.com at me, its written by 20 year olds who have never lived outside their parents houses. They used Andy Richter's tweets for god sakes….
Im up to date with most information on this issue.

I think they are more reputable than an internet nobody.

Actually they are not. They are agenda driven opinionists. You agree with their agenda so you think they are well researched. They present only half the evidence.
 
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No sudden change or ban is going to be accepted but at least make a start.

First create a register, ask people to register their weapons either online or through their shooting clubs or how ever. Any rifle sold from a certain date must be registered. Any weapon found that is not on the registry will be confiscated and the person in possession fined (the monetary fine is for a period - say two years or what ever, after that make it a criminal offence to be in possession of an unrigistered or automatic weapon, the severity of punishment to be determined) Offer a surrender armistice or buy back for certain types of weapons for a period of time.

Make it a patriotic thing to do to register your weapon, so those crazies can't take away their right to own a weapon.

We here on the forum are not decision makers nor are we seasoned campaigners so you may not get a solution to the problem from the forum posters. But I certainly have read some logical and reasonable posts on how to go about making change.

But good on you for your efforts in your pro stance. But digging your heals and finding reasons why suggestions won't work is only speculation on your part. It's amazing what happens over time. Look at the bible for example over the years it has taken many forms and versions and now no one really knows the truth but still people believe, the tide is turning now and people are walking away from religion. There is a crisis in faith. People are questioning religion and those that preach it who don't displays the morals that they preach.

A small ripple can turn into a tsunami of change. Why knock every suggestion, is it fear of change or is it fear that it may work.

Oh and I believe in God and believe that all firearms should be illigal and only held by police and armed forces.

You're free to possess whatever opinions you like, and scream them from as many rooftops as you like.

I don't think i am digging my heals in about anything to be honest. I am just pointing out that you can bring in all the legislation that you like, but unless it tackles the specific problem we are discussing, it is a waste of time and resources that will not stop an evil person committing an evil act.

We never heard about these types of mass killings on a regular basis in the past, why? It is a prevalence of mental illness, over-prescription of mind altering drugs, a loss of morality and respect for human life? There has to be some common factor that is leading up to this.

Most people's hearts are in the right place, but pretending that legislation will remove 300m guns from the community, and expecting criminals to suddenly obey the law, is naivety.

And i don't want to come across like i am knocking anybody, because i don't have a solution either.
 
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You want the government to raid everyones homes MG?
Think about what you are saying you dope.

Didn't your mother ever teach you not to interrupt adults when they are talking?
 
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And before he killed 26 more.

Well given the guy shot himself after he ran of the road I am not sure where you are going with that. When the neighbor opened up at him he was already making his escape.

But given Texas has exceptional relaxed gun laws, and openly encourages people to be armed. Good to see the more guns answer fail so miserably.

He shot himself after he was shot at the Church by the legal gun owner, and then chased away by the same guy.

Gun laws have nothing to do with this. The shooter was already prohibited from owning guns by law, so what does that say about gun laws?

A: That only law abiding people follow them.
 
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You want the government to raid everyones homes MG?
Think about what you are saying you dope.

Didn't your mother ever teach you not to interrupt adults when they are talking?

Thats rich. I suggested you act your age yesterday. Still only a quarter of the way there I see. Grow up!
 
I find it strange that the anti gun lobby refuse to talk about the real elephant in the room that is America's violent culture. This country has produced 68% of the entire worlds population of serial killers totalling more than 20 times as many as the second placed country England. These mass shooters are serial killers. They are not random, they plan their massacres and carry them out calmly. The FBI has stated through behavioural studies that more than 50% of those captured claimed they killed for the thrill of it. Gun restrictions will not stop these people. The real question is why are they being created in that country at such enormous rates to begin with? Other countries with high gun cultures do not suffer in this way.
 
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I certainly understand why they won't. It will seem fruitless at first and they'll be associated with failure.

A bit of altruism is required by the American people.

And yes I don't believe access to guns is the only issue. It stems from a greater set of societal problems starting with poor management of the mentally ill and a huge disaffected underclass.

And a greatly overblown attitude of self entitlement to weapons, of big polluting cars, large mansions etc. etc.

Well we're no better in some respects either Byron. That's ingrained in Western culture, not limited specifically to the US (maybe not firearms so much in Australia, but we certainly want our big patch of land and V8's.)
 
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That's a fair comment.

Lets assume for the sake of your argument that by some miracle the USA decides to ban all semi automatic firearms.

The vast majority of these firearms are owned by people for either self defense purposes, or by gun enthusiasts, and not a lot of these guns are registered with any authorities.

So how do you you get someone to hand in a gun that they paid alot of money for, and who has an ideological stance that surrounds that gun, to a government they don't trust, when nobody even knows that they own that gun?

You may get someone who inherited their grandfather's old relic to hand it in. But for the vast majority, they wouldn't even consider handing in their firearm, knowing that it cannot be traced to them.

So even if your gun ban passes, you will still be left with hundreds of millions of untraceable guns in the community, with more pouring over the southern border literally every single day. I don't see how that stops people who want to kill other people, from easily doing so?

It sounds good in theory…. no guns means no killing with guns. But the theory doens't allow for the reality of how many guns will still be in the hands of ordinary citizens, to be used for whatever purpose they want. That's why this is so difficult to tackle, because banning something doesn't make the reality magically disappear .

So legislators create the next step/s, which must always include public education.

Let's say, upon a further (briefer and compensation somewhat reduced) amnesty window ending, harsh penalties be enforced along with property searches etc. Being targeted at rapid fire guns, it will not affect the majority and as such has the chance to get a good few gun owners on board, who in turn may help convince their fellows that it is a good thing. Again, education is the key.

I don't have any expectations on gun control actions being anything other than a long hard slog, both politically and legally. Still, their leadership can choose to get the ball rolling, or decide it is all too hard to stand up to the NRA and stick their heads in the sand yet again.

This is where i believe your suggestion falters on a few levels.

- Aside from its vagueness , 'public education' has never changed a country's culture or ideology.

- A country with a 9 trillion dollar defecit cannot budget to buy back 300,000,000 guns.

-And a government cannot possibly raid the properties of potentially 250 million people when it has no idea who owns these rapid fire guns. Logistically speaking it is nearly impossible to conduct.

As i said to CB, a ban of sorts may be part of a much larger strategy, but the logistics of a ban are something so costly and unmanageable that noone would likely be willing to take it on, when the outcomes would be so uncertain.

Just my opinion.

One has to start somewhere when implementing any strategy, no matter how insurmountable a task may seem and cannot begin by stating it is simply a mental health issue, which of course is a major player as well, but not the only one. On the education front, advertising and propaganda always have a great effect on opinion, with Hitler and the Nazi party being an example of changing culture and ideology through such processes. A short look back to the mining industry advertising campaign here shows just how well propaganda can gain traction in a community.

300 million guns?, only talking about semi automatic at this point and raids would only be targeted. On the budget front, well the seeds of the growing debt were sown by the Reagan administration who had a somewhat similar economic approach to that which the current administration are planning on implementing which will only increase public debt, so it seems ludicrous not to similarly fund a public service program. But you are correct, they will prioritise allowing for the pockets of the minority to be more easily filled over providing funding for improvement of society.
 
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I find it strange that the anti gun lobby refuse to talk about the real elephant in the room that is America's violent culture. This country has produced 68% of the entire worlds population of serial killers totalling more than 20 times as many as the second placed country England. These mass shooters are serial killers. They are not random, they plan their massacres and carry them out calmly. The FBI has stated through behavioural studies that more than 50% of those captured claimed they killed for the thrill of it. Gun restrictions will not stop these people. The real question is why are they being created in that country at such enormous rates to begin with? Other countries with high gun cultures do not suffer in this way.

The country was born out of bloodletting.

Granted with such a large population you're going to find that there's a higher probability that there'll be more psychopaths out there. Still stands to ask the question why are they so different to say Australia or England? What makes them so much more likely to snap with very similar cultures to ours?

I wouldn't claim mass shooters to be serial killers though. Serial killers can carry out their "work" over days, weeks, months, years. It requires patience, an ability to appear normal on the surface while the sadistic tendencies boil underneath the skin and their killings tend to be very intimate. Mass shooters tend to hit once and effect maximum damage in one setting (and in doing so tend to be very impersonal in their killing,) and usually have no plans on getting out alive. Even if they do, they rarely do so. Very different pathologies IMO.

I wouldn't classify our mate in LV or the fellow from yesterday in the same vein as the Zodiac, Dahmer or BTK.
 
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I find it strange that the anti gun lobby refuse to talk about the real elephant in the room that is America's violent culture. This country has produced 68% of the entire worlds population of serial killers totalling more than 20 times as many as the second placed country England. These mass shooters are serial killers. They are not random, they plan their massacres and carry them out calmly. The FBI has stated through behavioural studies that more than 50% of those captured claimed they killed for the thrill of it. Gun restrictions will not stop these people. The real question is why are they being created in that country at such enormous rates to begin with? Other countries with high gun cultures do not suffer in this way.

The country was born out of bloodletting.

Granted with such a large population you're going to find that there's a higher probability that there'll be more psychopaths out there. Still stands to ask the question why are they so different to say Australia or England? What makes them so much more likely to snap with very similar cultures to ours?

I wouldn't claim mass shooters to be serial killers though. Serial killers can carry out their "work" over days, weeks, months, years. It requires patience, an ability to appear normal on the surface while the sadistic tendencies boil underneath the skin and their killings tend to be very intimate. Mass shooters tend to hit once and effect maximum damage in one setting (and in doing so tend to be very impersonal in their killing,) and usually have no plans on getting out alive. Even if they do, they rarely do so. Very different pathologies IMO.

I wouldn't classify our mate in LV or the fellow from yesterday in the same vein as the Zodiac, Dahmer or BTK.

I believe this is a new bastardisation of the traditional activities of these killers. They are less patient and less disciplined but far more deadly. In any event, American culture is rotten as opposed to most others. The rates that these killings are escalating are unprecedented.
Is it the entertainment industry who promote uber violence in video games, movies, television and music? Is it the socio-economic situation of millions? Is it multiculturalism? Is it political? Is it religious beliefs? Is it racism and xenophobia? Is it inattention to mental health issues? Is it the want to be famous? or is it just plain boredom? Accessibility to guns is contributory to a small extent but far from THE reason.
 
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The facts that have come to light so far regarding this latest shooting, but which may change:

- The killer was dishonorably discharged from the military, meaning he was legally prohibited from owning firearms. This shockingly means that legally banning people from owning guns doesn't stop them from owning guns.

- This was likely a hate crime, as the guy had been ranting continuously on social media against Christians, before entering a Church killing half the people inside.

- Some information that his mother-in-law attended this Church, and this may be why it was specifically targeted.

- His rampage was stopped by a legal gun owner who commenced firing at him, and then gave chase.

Just further to this.

He was arrested for cracking his infant step-sons skull, and then separately for cruelty to animals after bashing a dog. He wasn't jailed for either incident.

The law, already in place, says he is banned from owning firearms.

This is not an issue of gun control, but lack of enforcement of gun laws already in place.
 
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I find it strange that the anti gun lobby refuse to talk about the real elephant in the room that is America's violent culture. This country has produced 68% of the entire worlds population of serial killers totalling more than 20 times as many as the second placed country England. These mass shooters are serial killers. They are not random, they plan their massacres and carry them out calmly. The FBI has stated through behavioural studies that more than 50% of those captured claimed they killed for the thrill of it. Gun restrictions will not stop these people. The real question is why are they being created in that country at such enormous rates to begin with? Other countries with high gun cultures do not suffer in this way.

The country was born out of bloodletting.

Granted with such a large population you're going to find that there's a higher probability that there'll be more psychopaths out there. Still stands to ask the question why are they so different to say Australia or England? What makes them so much more likely to snap with very similar cultures to ours?

I wouldn't claim mass shooters to be serial killers though. Serial killers can carry out their "work" over days, weeks, months, years. It requires patience, an ability to appear normal on the surface while the sadistic tendencies boil underneath the skin and their killings tend to be very intimate. Mass shooters tend to hit once and effect maximum damage in one setting (and in doing so tend to be very impersonal in their killing,) and usually have no plans on getting out alive. Even if they do, they rarely do so. Very different pathologies IMO.

I wouldn't classify our mate in LV or the fellow from yesterday in the same vein as the Zodiac, Dahmer or BTK.

I believe this is a new bastardisation of the traditional activities of these killers. They are less patient and less disciplined but far more deadly. In any event, American culture is rotten as opposed to most others. The rates that these killings are escalating are unprecedented.
Is it the entertainment industry who promote uber violence in video games, movies, television and music? Is it the socio-economic situation of millions? Is it multiculturalism? Is it political? Is it religious beliefs? Is it racism and xenophobia? Is it inattention to mental health issues? Is it the want to be famous? or is it just plain boredom? Accessibility to guns is contributory to a small extent but far from THE reason.

I never said that the guns alone were the only reason. Access to firearms is one of the major reasons though.

We have the same games, exposed to the same entertainment industry (watched Silence of the Lambs while I was in the US, they cut half the movie out so we're exposed to more on our televisions,) we're just as multicultural, if not moreso.

I think it lays mainly with no assistance for mental illness and a huge disaffected underclass. For a country that reveres it's serving armed forces personnel it was astounding to find out how much charity work is going on like the Wounded Warriors (who do amazing work by the way.) How is it that servicemen and women injured on the job have to rely on a charity to help them get through life after serving for their country?

So many will work multiple jobs and never rise from the bottom of the pack, barely make ends meet from womb to tomb. There's culture clashes, whites no longer represent the majority and the racist undercurrent towards and between Hispanics and African Americans whom make up a large part of the underclass.

The place is a melting pot of tension and disaffection. It's a country of great people who are not without care for one another but there's plenty of people being left behind in a system that is geared to benefit a small few.

I loved running and gunning in all the Grand Theft Auto games, used to regularly play shoot 'em ups, I listen to heavy metal, I have fired rifles, I watch violent movies.

Why is it I've never felt compelled to kill other people, despite enjoying similar activities?
 
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He shot himself after he was shot at the Church by the legal gun owner, and then chased away by the same guy.

Gun laws have nothing to do with this. The shooter was already prohibited from owning guns by law, so what does that say about gun laws?

A: That only law abiding people follow them.

Then why is the answer more guns. Didn't do anybody in that Church much good.
 
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I find it strange that the anti gun lobby refuse to talk about the real elephant in the room that is America's violent culture. This country has produced 68% of the entire worlds population of serial killers totalling more than 20 times as many as the second placed country England. These mass shooters are serial killers. They are not random, they plan their massacres and carry them out calmly. The FBI has stated through behavioural studies that more than 50% of those captured claimed they killed for the thrill of it. Gun restrictions will not stop these people. The real question is why are they being created in that country at such enormous rates to begin with? Other countries with high gun cultures do not suffer in this way.

The country was born out of bloodletting.

Granted with such a large population you're going to find that there's a higher probability that there'll be more psychopaths out there. Still stands to ask the question why are they so different to say Australia or England? What makes them so much more likely to snap with very similar cultures to ours?

I wouldn't claim mass shooters to be serial killers though. Serial killers can carry out their "work" over days, weeks, months, years. It requires patience, an ability to appear normal on the surface while the sadistic tendencies boil underneath the skin and their killings tend to be very intimate. Mass shooters tend to hit once and effect maximum damage in one setting (and in doing so tend to be very impersonal in their killing,) and usually have no plans on getting out alive. Even if they do, they rarely do so. Very different pathologies IMO.

I wouldn't classify our mate in LV or the fellow from yesterday in the same vein as the Zodiac, Dahmer or BTK.

I believe this is a new bastardisation of the traditional activities of these killers. They are less patient and less disciplined but far more deadly. In any event, American culture is rotten as opposed to most others. The rates that these killings are escalating are unprecedented.
Is it the entertainment industry who promote uber violence in video games, movies, television and music? Is it the socio-economic situation of millions? Is it multiculturalism? Is it political? Is it religious beliefs? Is it racism and xenophobia? Is it inattention to mental health issues? Is it the want to be famous? or is it just plain boredom? Accessibility to guns is contributory to a small extent but far from THE reason.

I never said that the guns alone were the only reason. Access to firearms is one of the major reasons though.

We have the same games, exposed to the same entertainment industry (watched Silence of the Lambs while I was in the US, they cut half the movie out so we're exposed to more on our televisions,) we're just as multicultural, if not moreso.

I think it lays mainly with no assistance for mental illness and a huge disaffected underclass. For a country that reveres it's serving armed forces personnel it was astounding to find out how much charity work is going on like the Wounded Warriors (who do amazing work by the way.) How is it that servicemen and women injured on the job have to rely on a charity to help them get through life after serving for their country?

So many will work multiple jobs and never rise from the bottom of the pack, barely make ends meet from womb to tomb. There's culture clashes, whites no longer represent the majority and the racist undercurrent towards and between Hispanics and African Americans whom make up a large part of the underclass.

The place is a melting pot of tension and disaffection. It's a country of great people who are not without care for one another but there's plenty of people being left behind in a system that is geared to benefit a small few.

I loved running and gunning in all the Grand Theft Auto games, used to regularly play shoot 'em ups, I listen to heavy metal, I have fired rifles, I watch violent movies.

Why is it I've never felt compelled to kill other people, despite enjoying similar activities?

Maybe if you had guns you would?
 
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The country was born out of bloodletting.

Granted with such a large population you're going to find that there's a higher probability that there'll be more psychopaths out there. Still stands to ask the question why are they so different to say Australia or England? What makes them so much more likely to snap with very similar cultures to ours?

I wouldn't claim mass shooters to be serial killers though. Serial killers can carry out their "work" over days, weeks, months, years. It requires patience, an ability to appear normal on the surface while the sadistic tendencies boil underneath the skin and their killings tend to be very intimate. Mass shooters tend to hit once and effect maximum damage in one setting (and in doing so tend to be very impersonal in their killing,) and usually have no plans on getting out alive. Even if they do, they rarely do so. Very different pathologies IMO.

I wouldn't classify our mate in LV or the fellow from yesterday in the same vein as the Zodiac, Dahmer or BTK.

I believe this is a new bastardisation of the traditional activities of these killers. They are less patient and less disciplined but far more deadly. In any event, American culture is rotten as opposed to most others. The rates that these killings are escalating are unprecedented.
Is it the entertainment industry who promote uber violence in video games, movies, television and music? Is it the socio-economic situation of millions? Is it multiculturalism? Is it political? Is it religious beliefs? Is it racism and xenophobia? Is it inattention to mental health issues? Is it the want to be famous? or is it just plain boredom? Accessibility to guns is contributory to a small extent but far from THE reason.

I never said that the guns alone were the only reason. Access to firearms is one of the major reasons though.

We have the same games, exposed to the same entertainment industry (watched Silence of the Lambs while I was in the US, they cut half the movie out so we're exposed to more on our televisions,) we're just as multicultural, if not moreso.

I think it lays mainly with no assistance for mental illness and a huge disaffected underclass. For a country that reveres it's serving armed forces personnel it was astounding to find out how much charity work is going on like the Wounded Warriors (who do amazing work by the way.) How is it that servicemen and women injured on the job have to rely on a charity to help them get through life after serving for their country?

So many will work multiple jobs and never rise from the bottom of the pack, barely make ends meet from womb to tomb. There's culture clashes, whites no longer represent the majority and the racist undercurrent towards and between Hispanics and African Americans whom make up a large part of the underclass.

The place is a melting pot of tension and disaffection. It's a country of great people who are not without care for one another but there's plenty of people being left behind in a system that is geared to benefit a small few.

I loved running and gunning in all the Grand Theft Auto games, used to regularly play shoot 'em ups, I listen to heavy metal, I have fired rifles, I watch violent movies.

Why is it I've never felt compelled to kill other people, despite enjoying similar activities?

Maybe if you had guns you would?

Possibly, who knows.
 
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