Brooks training

[foreveratiger]

Brooks and Moses together should be a dynamic combo,its up to them who will be the leading playmaker during the games,game plans, structures all have to be adhered to…if Moses is to dominate then Brooks has to adjust his game to be a supporting playmaker..not go missing during games,not arm grab when tackling and start earning his paycheck as per hype,otherwise I don't care if he goes....Taylor must get these two to be the controlling force within our team,no good having two superstars and only one going forward. ....otherwise we are wasting much needed money.!!

Your on the money TT

My patience has worn thin waiting for these 2 to deliver on a consistent basis , Moses seems the one more likely to grow in his role .

My question is how long do you guys give before you say " you know what lets cut our losses and let him go " .

I hope i'm proven wrong and will gladly admit i was wrong but i fear we will re-sign Brooks on massive overs again not cause of form but to keep his buddies happy and make them re-sign.

 

[happy_tiger]

Comparing Tedesco's tackle stats to Moses or Brooks is simply ridiculous

Usually when fullbacks are making tackles they are facing defenders 1 on 1 with heaps of field to play with

Or they are trying to hold up a second rower in the in goal or trying to drive a player in full flight over the sideline

They aren't in a defensive structure with others around them

Why is it ridiculous? I’m talking about relative missed tackles and defensive reputations based on those stats. It's an example of how player reputations amongst fans compare with actual numbers, another angle to the question why Brooks has such a negative reputation for his offensive output, when his numbers compare well with Moses (who is conversely considered a livewire).

Yes halves and FB have different defensive requirements, but I was pointing out that Tedesco is a pretty ordinary defender too, but it never comes up.

So let’s look at a few prominent FBs in 2016, to expand the argument:
Tedesco 17 played, 84 attempts (4.94 pg), 23 MT (27.38%)
Munster 24 games, 174 attempts (7.25 pg), 31 MT (17.82%)
Boyd 25 games, 180 attempts (7.20 pg), 32 MT (17.78%)
Coote 27 games, 246 attempts (9.11 pg), 55 MT (22.36%)
Moylan 21 games, 204 attempts (9.71 pg), 34 MT (16.67%)
Barba 27 games, 123 attempts (4.55 pg), 33 MT (26.83%)
And for extra interest, a FB from a really crap side that leaks tonnes of points: Gagai 22 games, 270 attempts (12.27 pg), 62 MT (22.96%)

I did not cherry-pick these guys, I just took a cross-section of the FBs in the top sides, then Gagai for interest's sake.

Out of the above, Tedesco attempted the second-least number of tackles per match and missed the most as a percentage, even worse than the renowned arm-grabber Ben Barba and Dane Gagai who spends most of his matches chasing line breaks.

Why does Tedesco attempt so few tackles, does it speak to his positioning? You could argue that when his halves miss tackles near the line, he has almost no chance to get across in cover. But Dane Gagai manages not quite so badly and he's not even a specialist FB like Tedesco is.

Brooks has a reputation for being an ordinary distributor, but his set up of offense is comparable to Moses and Tedesco. He is a known poor tackler, but so are Moses and Tedesco.

But fans believe Tedesco MUST be retained, with Moses definitely ahead of Brooks by some margin. And I am trying to figure out why. And I'm not talking along the lines of "Brooks just isn't quite as good as these guys", I am hearing "if Brooks doesn't have a standout year 2017 he should be dropped / let go".

The fact you were comparing players whose defensive responsibilities are so far apart it's not even funny as in a fullback's and a 6/7

If a centre / back gets one on one with a fullback of equal speed the fullback might make maybe 2/10 tackles and that would be the very best case scenario with the best defending fullbacks in the game

And then you have to understand what's happening in front of Tedesco

The two ,three and four in on our left and right would be arguably the worst in the league

Makes it hard for your fullback when he doesn't have a strength he can rely on and then favour the weaker side

Speaking from experience playing fullback from defending behind a strong defensive side and then defending behind a side that refused to tackle certain blokes is absolute chalk and cheese

You also need to realize that some of the fullbacks you chose are actually general play kickers and will be obviously involved in more defence because they need to put their players on side if they can

Also some fullbacks prefer to defend in the line early in the tackle count as well

Also the style of kicking game the Tigers employ (which is different ) effects that

Stats from position to position don't iron out the variables , no issues with you comparing position v position

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Happy, everyone knows you put the bloke who cant tackle at Fullback :roll

 

[happy_tiger]

Happy, everyone knows you put the bloke who cant tackle at Fullback :roll

But you never played fullback , pretty boy :smiley:

Easts would of had 13 fullbacks

 

[greatodensraven]

Ask Radradra if Teddy can tackle.

 

[Geo]

Isn't it part of a Fullbacks job to bark orders at the back to get the team to plug defensive holes…

 

[happy_tiger]

Isn't it part of a Fullbacks job to bark orders at the back to get the team to plug defensive holes…

It is Geo , but you get those pretty boy halves to busy looking at their reflections and dabbing at the male cheerleaders to be concerned with actually putting their bodies on the line

Only thing worse was the hand holding back rowers and wingers

Fullbacks are the heart and soul of every football team , well the one's I played in anyway :laughing:

 

[jirskyr]

The fact you were comparing players whose defensive responsibilities are so far apart it's not even funny as in a fullback's and a 6/7

Ah just to say it again, I wasn't comparing the defensive responsibilities. I was saying both positions are difficult, in their own way.

Broses have a tough job tackling forwards all game, and they fairly suck at it. Tedesco has a tough job mopping up our line breaks and actually does a fairly ordinary job of that too. Fair enough FB is a tough job and some of the guys I quoted are playing behind good defensive units, and one or two are themselves kickers and may kick chase, but Dane Gagai plays FB for the absolutely no-question worst side in the comp and does better than Tedesco does.

I don't have daggers for Tedesco, just nobody ever mentions his defence and statistically it's not that good. But people are all over Broses.

 

[happy_tiger]

The fact you were comparing players whose defensive responsibilities are so far apart it's not even funny as in a fullback's and a 6/7

Ah just to say it again, I wasn't comparing the defensive responsibilities. I was saying both positions are difficult, in their own way.

Broses have a tough job tackling forwards all game, and they fairly suck at it. Tedesco has a tough job mopping up our line breaks and actually does a fairly ordinary job of that too. Fair enough FB is a tough job and some of the guys I quoted are playing behind good defensive units, and one or two are themselves kickers and may kick chase, but Dane Gagai plays FB for the absolutely no-question worst side in the comp and does better than Tedesco does.

I don't have daggers for Tedesco, just nobody ever mentions his defence and statistically it's not that good. But people are all over Broses.

Gagai played centre for a portion of those games …...

All I was saying I'd rather be fullback at the Storm than I would the WT's defensively

 

[Fumbles]

I don't have daggers for Tedesco, just nobody ever mentions his defence and statistically it's not that good. But people are all over Broses.

To miss a tackle you have to actually put yourself in a position to make the tackle. So statistically if you work your arse off and cover as much ground as Tedesco does your going to miss more tackles.
Of course if your a Moylan type of fullback who jogs around in the in-goal and is never close to the ball then yes you won't be attempting a tackle and therefore not missing a tackle.

Brooks has cost us many games with his poor online tackling he continues to tackling around the legs instead of putting his body on the line. At least Moses has a go.

 

[jirskyr]

I don't have daggers for Tedesco, just nobody ever mentions his defence and statistically it's not that good. But people are all over Broses.

To miss a tackle you have to actually put yourself in a position to make the tackle. So statistically if you work your arse off and cover as much ground as Tedesco does your going to miss more tackles.
Of course if your a Moylan type of fullback who jogs around in the in-goal and is never close to the ball then yes you won't be attempting a tackle and therefore not missing a tackle.

That does not correlate with tackle rates per game. Moylan makes more than twice the number of tackle attempts as Tedesco and misses less tackles.

Yes, happy made the point that a handful of FBs might kick chase (perhaps Moylan and Coote do this) and I can't account for that in the stats. But of the 8 FBs I looked up, Tedesco has less tackle attempts per game than all except Ben Barba. He's not even close to most of them. So he really can't be putting himself in the position to make more covering tackles than other FBs, because he simply does not have as many tackle attempts to his name.

 

[Fade_To_Black]

I'd like to keep Brooks - I think he will be good for us, especially along with Teddy, Moses and Liddell (possibly the most exciting spine in the NRL for donkeys). However, people are comparing him with Cleary - everyone is not the same, some mature quicker than others - (don't think Brooks has an NRL coach for a father either - which helps). He still needs time to work out a few faults, slack at training, confidence, defence and brain explosions that lead to intercepts that aren't on and wrong options when close to the line.

That said - I still feel he could be a good one for us - however for more than he is getting now (I believe 600k) I don't think so. He needs to fix the faults first. There would be no harm in structuring a contract that increases his pay as he irons out the faults. I would drop him to 450k (if Rowdy can drop, he can as well) and add over the next three years as he improves.

If we had a good defensive unit around him, of course that would help.

What worries me is the same manager, manages all four in Brooks, Moses, Teddy and Woods.
I can see Brooks wanting more, us saying no (we'll use JLJ, ok with me as well), then manager saying "give him what he wants or all four will walk. What do we do then????

If the worst case scenario happened and this manager enticed all four of them to threaten to walk….as a club you would tell all of them to #%#% off IMO. You can't have players and managers calling the shots and dictating to the club. I'm sure for the 3+ million dollars a season those 4 blokes would be costing WT we could find some pretty handy replacements for 2018 and beyond.
As far as Brooks and Moses go IMO people read a bit too much into Moses' handful of good games last season and his brash personality. If you look at Moses' season as a whole it was nothing extraordinary but the great sign is that he improved and took command like nearly all of the games best playmakers in history have done.
Brooks needs to step out of the supposed "Farah shadow" that JT alludes to and assert himself more and make his presence felt a bit more amongst the team, be a leader (if only by actions, not so much his quiet demeaner).

As far as people comparing our halves to Clearly, he had a hell of a lot better support around him in both attack and defence than Brooks or Moses have had since they debuted so comparisons are a bit misguided there. Sure Clearly looks like he has the complete game and will be a good 'un but quality of cattle around a young bloke counts for bucket loads.
Am thinking (or hoping) Brooks will finally show some more dominant traits this season and really step up. If he doesn't then he needs to be offered a reduced contract, if he's not happy with that, then moved on and we look for the assertive playmaker that we desperately need.

 

[southerntiger]

I don't have daggers for Tedesco, just nobody ever mentions his defence and statistically it's not that good. But people are all over Broses.

To miss a tackle you have to actually put yourself in a position to make the tackle. So statistically if you work your arse off and cover as much ground as Tedesco does your going to miss more tackles.
Of course if your a Moylan type of fullback who jogs around in the in-goal and is never close to the ball then yes you won't be attempting a tackle and therefore not missing a tackle.

That does not correlate with tackle rates per game. Moylan makes more than twice the number of tackle attempts as Tedesco and misses less tackles.

Yes, happy made the point that a handful of FBs might kick chase (perhaps Moylan and Coote do this) and I can't account for that in the stats. But of the 8 FBs I looked up, Tedesco has less tackle attempts per game than all except Ben Barba. He's not even close to most of them. So he really can't be putting himself in the position to make more covering tackles than other FBs, because he simply does not have as many tackle attempts to his name.

Mate thanks for the stats and analysis. People can be a bit sensitive.

Two key points for me:

1\. Teddy makes less tackle attempts than most big name fullbacks. I struggle to correlate this with our supposed frail defence. How does our structure differ so much that Teddy doesn't make anywhere near the number of attempted tackles yet we still let in so many tries?

2\. Teddy's missed tackle % is high compared to other fullbacks. Happy understandably attributes this to our frail defensive structure but, like you, I don't know how to rationalise that with the fact that Teddy makes less tackles attempts per game. Could it be that our poor defence means that Teddy only makes tackles under pressure but such defence, whilst poor, somehow limits the number of tackles he is required to attempt? Seems illogical but I guess you could have a situation where a defence works well in most situations (so the fullback isn't called upon) but is very poor under stress such that when the fullback does get involved, it is dire. While possible, it seems unlikely.

The other possibility is that the stats are wrong. Unlike in the US (where sports stats is a big industry), Im not convinced that NRL stats are entirely reliable, particularly more minor stats such as tackles attempts.

If the stats are correct, it illustrates to me how we fans tend to place an emphasis on big plays (e.g. a great tackle by Teddy) in remembering a players attributes (i have always considered Teddy to be a strong defensive fullback). Such tendency is what Moneyball was reacting too. Placing value on how a player looks rather than their actual contribution.

Interesting.

This is not a criticism of Teddy, just like you weren't. Teddy is without doubt our most valuable player.

 

[happy_tiger]

I don't have daggers for Tedesco, just nobody ever mentions his defence and statistically it's not that good. But people are all over Broses.

To miss a tackle you have to actually put yourself in a position to make the tackle. So statistically if you work your arse off and cover as much ground as Tedesco does your going to miss more tackles.
Of course if your a Moylan type of fullback who jogs around in the in-goal and is never close to the ball then yes you won't be attempting a tackle and therefore not missing a tackle.

That does not correlate with tackle rates per game. Moylan makes more than twice the number of tackle attempts as Tedesco and misses less tackles.

Yes, happy made the point that a handful of FBs might kick chase (perhaps Moylan and Coote do this) and I can't account for that in the stats. But of the 8 FBs I looked up, Tedesco has less tackle attempts per game than all except Ben Barba. He's not even close to most of them. So he really can't be putting himself in the position to make more covering tackles than other FBs, because he simply does not have as many tackle attempts to his name.

Mate thanks for the stats and analysis. People can be a bit sensitive.

Two key points for me:

1\. Teddy makes less tackle attempts than most big name fullbacks. I struggle to correlate this with our supposed frail defence. How does our structure differ so much that Teddy doesn't make anywhere near the number of attempted tackles yet we still let in so many tries?

2\. Teddy's missed tackle % is high compared to other fullbacks. Happy understandably attributes this to our frail defensive structure but, like you, I don't know how to rationalise that with the fact that Teddy makes less tackles attempts per game. Could it be that our poor defence means that Teddy only makes tackles under pressure but such defence, whilst poor, somehow limits the number of tackles he is required to attempt? Seems illogical but I guess you could have a situation where a defence works well in most situations (so the fullback isn't called upon) but is very poor under stress such that when the fullback does get involved, it is dire. While possible, it seems unlikely.

The other possibility is that the stats are wrong. Unlike in the US (where sports stats is a big industry), Im not convinced that NRL stats are entirely reliable, particularly more minor stats such as tackles attempts.

If the stats are correct, it illustrates to me how we fans tend to place an emphasis on big plays (e.g. a great tackle by Teddy) in remembering a players attributes (i have always considered Teddy to be a strong defensive fullback). Such tendency is what Moneyball was reacting too. Placing value on how a player looks rather than their actual contribution.

Interesting.

This is not a criticism of Teddy, just like you weren't. Teddy is without doubt our most valuable player.

Because we are very soft in the red zone would be a major reason , also even if you make a tackle and the opposition score it's classed as a missed tackle

I wonder how many times he has been clinging onto a bloke as they plunge over

How many times does a big bloke stroll through our defence …... Teddy's left with a bloke 20 -30 kg's heavier then he is using a Maori side step on him close to the line

I'm not being personal , I just know how hard it is at fullback when the blokes in front of you aren't doing their jobs

And if that doesn't describe us to a T , I don't know what does

 

[upthetigers]

He needs to run more and take on the line.. is what I'd like from him in 2017…

More repeat sets would be nice too.

 

[supercoach]

I am like a few others on this forum who seem to be in the minority , I think Brooks is going okay and I expect him to have a massive year. As Watto said he is playing to the coaches instructions, Moses is the no1 playmaker and Brooks is a foil. His figures last year were good except for his D , but there were plenty others who fell down in the D department as well.

I keep saying it is a team game and when the team goes well individuals go well and the opposite can be said when the team goes badly. Anyway if Brooks went out there on the open market I am sure he would get some very big nibbles as a lot of better judges than us rate him

 

[jirskyr]

To miss a tackle you have to actually put yourself in a position to make the tackle. So statistically if you work your arse off and cover as much ground as Tedesco does your going to miss more tackles.
Of course if your a Moylan type of fullback who jogs around in the in-goal and is never close to the ball then yes you won't be attempting a tackle and therefore not missing a tackle.

That does not correlate with tackle rates per game. Moylan makes more than twice the number of tackle attempts as Tedesco and misses less tackles.

Yes, happy made the point that a handful of FBs might kick chase (perhaps Moylan and Coote do this) and I can't account for that in the stats. But of the 8 FBs I looked up, Tedesco has less tackle attempts per game than all except Ben Barba. He's not even close to most of them. So he really can't be putting himself in the position to make more covering tackles than other FBs, because he simply does not have as many tackle attempts to his name.

Mate thanks for the stats and analysis. People can be a bit sensitive.

Two key points for me:

1\. Teddy makes less tackle attempts than most big name fullbacks. I struggle to correlate this with our supposed frail defence. How does our structure differ so much that Teddy doesn't make anywhere near the number of attempted tackles yet we still let in so many tries?

2\. Teddy's missed tackle % is high compared to other fullbacks. Happy understandably attributes this to our frail defensive structure but, like you, I don't know how to rationalise that with the fact that Teddy makes less tackles attempts per game. Could it be that our poor defence means that Teddy only makes tackles under pressure but such defence, whilst poor, somehow limits the number of tackles he is required to attempt? Seems illogical but I guess you could have a situation where a defence works well in most situations (so the fullback isn't called upon) but is very poor under stress such that when the fullback does get involved, it is dire. While possible, it seems unlikely.

The other possibility is that the stats are wrong. Unlike in the US (where sports stats is a big industry), Im not convinced that NRL stats are entirely reliable, particularly more minor stats such as tackles attempts.

If the stats are correct, it illustrates to me how we fans tend to place an emphasis on big plays (e.g. a great tackle by Teddy) in remembering a players attributes (i have always considered Teddy to be a strong defensive fullback). Such tendency is what Moneyball was reacting too. Placing value on how a player looks rather than their actual contribution.

Interesting.

This is not a criticism of Teddy, just like you weren't. Teddy is without doubt our most valuable player.

Because we are very soft in the red zone would be a major reason , also even if you make a tackle and the opposition score it's classed as a missed tackle

I wonder how many times he has been clinging onto a bloke as they plunge over

How many times does a big bloke stroll through our defence …... Teddy's left with a bloke 20 -30 kg's heavier then he is using a Maori side step on him close to the line

I'm not being personal , I just know how hard it is at fullback when the blokes in front of you aren't doing their jobs

And if that doesn't describe us to a T , I don't know what does

So we are proposing that - Tedesco gets fewer opportunities to affect tackles overall because we let in clean line breaks close to the line where he cannot get across in cover, but when we do have a line break that he can challenge, it's so difficult to manage that he cannot help but make many misses.

Another thought I have is that Tedesco is a fairly poor side-on tackle maker, because without looking at it closely during matches I don't recall seeing many people run over the top of him, but I do recall him being beaten on the outside. So perhaps when he comes across for a side-on cover tackle, he misses a fair few, but also ends up chasing the attacker into the wing cover. That might account for why he affects less tackles per game. Without looking it up, maybe our wingers make more tackles than average and this includes extra cover.

The stats could indeed be wrong but I cross-checked against totalfootystats and they give about the same numbers - 3.94 tackles per match (NRL says 4.4).

It's just a weird one and raises the question of why players have certain reputations, and if those are fairly earned. I personally don't think Moses has done that well over his entire career to date, and sure his best footy was recently and that counts for a lot, but he now has this reputation as the proven next big thing in the halves. Brooks has performed better than Moses for most of the last 3 years, but because Moses just passed him in recent output, Brooks is now on the outer in most people's estimation. Surely Moses next contract should be based on his performance for at least part of 2017, to see if he can keep improving.

 

[airbus]

Brooks is probably the 10th best halfback in the NRL.

On that basis he is worth keeping but certainly not on any more than he's on, even with the salary cap increasing.

If another club desperate for a halfback pays overs we should be prepared to let him go.

 

[Nelson]

So we are proposing that - Tedesco gets fewer opportunities to affect tackles overall because we let in clean line breaks close to the line where he cannot get across in cover, but when we do have a line break that he can challenge, it's so difficult to manage that he cannot help but make many misses.

Another thought I have is that Tedesco is a fairly poor side-on tackle maker, because without looking at it closely during matches I don't recall seeing many people run over the top of him, but I do recall him being beaten on the outside. So perhaps when he comes across for a side-on cover tackle, he misses a fair few, but also ends up chasing the attacker into the wing cover. That might account for why he affects less tackles per game. Without looking it up, maybe our wingers make more tackles than average and this includes extra cover.

The stats could indeed be wrong but I cross-checked against totalfootystats and they give about the same numbers - 3.94 tackles per match (NRL says 4.4).

It's just a weird one and raises the question of why players have certain reputations, and if those are fairly earned. I personally don't think Moses has done that well over his entire career to date, and sure his best footy was recently and that counts for a lot, but he now has this reputation as the proven next big thing in the halves. Brooks has performed better than Moses for most of the last 3 years, but because Moses just passed him in recent output, Brooks is now on the outer in most people's estimation. Surely Moses next contract should be based on his performance for at least part of 2017, to see if he can keep improving.

The defensive ability of a fullback is just not something that really lends itself to statistical analysis. They are not a front line defender and if they're making a lot of tackles per game you'll probably find that they are either doing some defending on the wing, or they're defending on the line when the other team's inside the 10 (leaving the team exposed to a kick in behind).

His positional play and commitment in defence is phenomenal. Some of his missed tackles can probably be chalked up to him reading the play well enough to actually be there and try to stop the try when other fullbacks would be metres behind the play.

Missed tackles in broken play are also not a great indicator. His main goal is to shut the situation down. If he cuts down the attacker's options by his positioning and manages to slow the attacker down for cover defence to get him then even if he's missed the tackle he's done a stellar job.

This is one area where I don't care what the stats say - Teddy is a great defender.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

I've said it a few times that you don't need two gun halves. Even the strong clubs go with one half who is serviceable. Chad Townsend at the Sharks is a perfect example. Save the money put aside for one of the halves and invest it in a quality back rower and this team will be set.