Coronavirus Outbreak

[Guest]

If you are open to views on covid beyond what your government and the mainstream media would like you to think, then this is some fantastic research with lots of supporting information
Michael P Senger has appeared on many news outlets in his efforts to expose the ugly side of this whole sorry mess
It’ll take a while to read but I’d thoroughly recommend
I’m not going to be drawn into the negativity that may ensue but I would ask all to consider its contents with an open mind and resist the cognitive dissonance which is the threat response of a closed mind

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1348324838167908352.html



Curly people live in fear and lash out when they don't like an opinion that makes them think in a logic way they have been preprogam it will shock them when the US military take over the US lock up Biden and reinstall Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon as president

This post has no relation to the topic being discussed in this thread. Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

He's trolling - the next step will be resolved with a click of a button.

 

[Tiger5150]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....


Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

No I was arguing against the few that believe it was released purposely .......or thought it was made from scratch in a lab


In the lab, in Wuhan, every day, day after day they created virus from scratch, in the lab. Viruses that have never existed in nature. Intentionally, with the full knowledge and approval of the whole scientific/medical community. A little from here, a little from there. A little bat, a little pangolin. This is exactly what they do (or at least did) and this is why the lab was specifically built and trained (by the US) as a BioSec Level 4 Lab. This is not hypothesis. This is not conspiracy. This is not QAnon. This is a scientific, published fact.

Im not saying that for 100% certain that it came from the lab. I dont know that, I cant know that 100% certain. IMO its unlikely that we can ever determine 100% where it came from.

What I am saying in this thread is that I do think it came from the lab, almost certainly accidentally. The reason I think this is that it is the most likely and logical way for it to happen. Again using occams razor, you have to consider that the lab is the least resistance path.

For mine it is way too much coincidence that there is a lab with previous biosecurity breaches that specifically creates and researches gain of function coronaviruses in bats and pangolins that are not encountered in nature at the specific geograhical centre of an epidemic of a gain of function coronavirus of bat and pangolin origin that has never previously been encountered in nature.

Others may not agree and genuinely think it came from the wet market and that is cool and their right. This is unlikely though due to the gain of function nature of the virus and the multiple RNA/DNA origin. Previous wet market outbreaks have not been gain of function and have all been single origin zoonotic viruses. Bird Flu, swine flu etc.

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is....well crazy.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that the idea the virus was developed in a lab indicates mental illness. It is definitely something that may have happened, but at this point there is no evidence or proof of that occurring.


Earl said regarding someone believing that the virus may have originated in the lab

*"This is the point. To me it’s a mental health issue. There are no facts to these crazy theories. There is so much evidence against these crazy theories.

The obvious conclusion is that these people have mental health problems.?"*


By definition anyone that believes that it was created and released purposefully, that the virus doesn't exist or it is being manipulated to control people believe in a conspiracy theory.

This is basically my whole point in this part of the thread. It is NOT conspiracy theory to believe that the virus could be created in the WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan. I have posted here stacks of publications showing that this is exactly what they do, create chimaeric gain of function viruses to study if they are transmissible to humans. It is EXACTLY what they do and why the lab was created, so its not a crazy conspiracy to suggest that they do what they prove and show to the world that they do.

I am genuinely surprised about the level of argument into something that is essentially unarguable. I think it has a political basis in that if someone like me says this, it is taken as anti-China/Pro Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon/Right wing etc etc and as a result anyone holding the opposite beliefs will react in a knee jerk reaction.

What I am saying has no political basis, they are merely statements of facts.

I agree it is not a conspiracy theory that the virus could have originated in a lab, that is why there are ongoing investigations.

i think there is zero chance of an effective investigation, in China 12 months after the fact. Additionally i dont think there is anything else left to discover other than what is already in the genome.

The issue is actually people a couple of post above yours who are stating such ideas of the military removing Biden from office and reinstalling Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon, or that the virus doesn't exist, or was purposefully released, or is being manipulated to control the masses. All these are conspiracy theories

Agree 100%

>and are what most people are responding to when they are talking about conspiracy theories in relation to covid.

Well actually Earl said of my posting actual verified peer reviewed scientific research data that *"Your belief is meaningless and at this point it is a conspiracy theory that Trumpists and the Qanon crowd like."*

Ironically he also said *"Someone who continually denies reality has mental health issues."* I can only assume Earl doesnt consider reality to include science.

 

[earl]

By definition anyone that believes that it was created and released purposefully, that the virus doesn’t exist or it is being manipulated to control people believe in a conspiracy theory.

https://theconversation.com/heres-how-scientists-know-the-coronavirus-came-from-bats-and-wasnt-made-in-a-lab-141850

https://bgr.com/2020/07/20/coronavirus-origin-story-scientists-know-sars-cov-2-evolved-from-bats-not-made-in-wuhan-lab/

https://bgr.com/2020/07/20/coronavirus-origin-story-scientists-know-sars-cov-2-evolved-from-bats-not-made-in-wuhan-lab/

It's a conspiracy theory.

If there is any proof to change the current scientific assessment it'd be great to see it.

I don't have beliefs or opinions. I use facts rather than conspiracy theories to inform myself.

I'll add that it could have been a virus being studied in a lab and someone in the lab became infected or it was transmitted via clothes or something. I think that would be unlikely but it's possible.

"The scientists explained the SARS-CoV-2 genome has been sequenced and publicly shared thousands of times by scientists all over the world. “If the virus had been genetically engineered in a lab, there would be signs of manipulation in the genome data,” Hayes noted."

I'll add that I think studying these viruses is inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions.

 

[earl]

It is NOT conspiracy theory to believe that the virus could be created in the WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan

Just to be clear this is a conspiracy theory. It has no basis in fact and appears to have been refuted scientifically.

I'll try and explain this to you. If the virus was genetically modified scientists would have been able to prove this by now. It would have a different genetic make up.

If you amend your belief (which isn't true) to state that the virus could have been studied in a lab and it got out that way there is a chance that you are correct. I think that is unlikely but it could have occurred.

 

[earl]

Ironically he also said “Someone who continually denies reality has mental health issues.” I can only assume Earl doesnt consider reality to include science.

Definitely not. We should always listen to science. There have been so many crazy theories on here. Yours is another theory that has no basis in science.

I did adjust my opinion on mental health issues but don't think that is a positive thing. I'm stating it's unfair to classify someone with depression or another mental health issue with someone who doesn't believe in factual proof via science. I think people who believe in conspiracy theories are irrational, uneducated and stupid human beings.

 

[Geo]

I'm not taking a vaccine from the Umbrella Corp or the dude in I am Legend..

 

[Guest]

I'm not taking a vaccine from the Umbrella Corp or the dude in I am Legend..

I'm afraid of needles so I'm doomed either way...

 

[Curly_Tiger]

What is happening to Regan’s posts?
Surely we don’t need to delete posts in here unless they have bad language or are personally offensive

 

[earl]

There's that magic 6% number again. Has anyone produced a source for that figure?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Here are the stats. 2 million deaths with a mortality rate at about 2%. Those figures are probably under stated.

No, I'm referring to the stat that 6% of people who died with COVID died solely of COVID, rather than co-morbidities accelerating and enhancing the damage and death that COVID brings.

This is another really dumb way to view the data. It shows a lack of understanding of analysis of moralities via various causes. It is exactly the same scenario for basically any other disease.

So it's nothing at all to do with COVID.

 

[earl]

I wouldn’t rule out that this virus was developed and planted to see how it would react in human populace

You can rule it out because the virus has been studied multiple times and no one believes it was created in a lab.

It could have been studied in a lab and gotten that way but I think it's much more likely like other transmissions of viruses it just happened in nature.

This is the same as the Spanish Flu or SARS 1 or MER.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Potential_origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_respiratory_syndrome

 

[Tiger5150]

It is NOT conspiracy theory to believe that the virus could be created in the WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan

Just to be clear this is a conspiracy theory. It has no basis in fact and appears to have been refuted scientifically.

Earl. Serious question. Did you read ANY of the peer reviewed scientific research articles I posted?

The articles that you posted state that the virus has not been artificially created in a lab because it doesnt have "an obvious viral sequence as the backbone" it goes on to say it is a recombination of bat and pangolin, that is a chimaeric gan of function virus WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO IN THE WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan, exactly as outlined in the published research I posted. They do this intentionally in order to test its interaction with humans.

These articles that you posted 100% back up the peer reviewed literature that I posted.

I'll try and explain this to you. If the virus was genetically modified scientists would have been able to prove this by now. It would have a different genetic make up.

Ill try to explain this to you. There are STACKS (some of which that I have posted here) of peer reviewed scientific research data that shows that the WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan is creating chimearic gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus. This is a fact. The US banned this research in 2014 because of the risk of what happened happening.


Genuinely not sure of how this is arguable.

 

[earl]

One point I'd also make is that the wet markets in China are highly likely to lead to more outbreaks of different viruses in the future.

I watched a show after the pandemic but it was recorded prior to the pandemic on potential virus outbreaks and the show specifically mentioned China's wet markets and exotic animal trade.

It's really bad stuff. I think China will want to cover this up because it's mostly the elite eating exotic animals.

 

[mike]

I'm not taking a vaccine from the Umbrella Corp or the dude in I am Legend..

I'm afraid of needles so I'm doomed either way...

Just look the other way.

 

[Tiger5150]

I'll add that I think studying these viruses is inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions.

I think you are 100% right about this, no argument.

Would you go as far as to say that if there was a lab somewhere that was intentionally creating chimearic, gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus, in a manner that was banned by the US in 2014 because of the risk....that this would be as inherently risky?

 

[cochise]

I'm not taking a vaccine from the Umbrella Corp or the dude in I am Legend..

I'm afraid of needles so I'm doomed either way...

Just look the other way.

I'm scared of things I can't see.

 

[earl]

Ill try to explain this to you. There are STACKS (some of which that I have posted here) of peer reviewed scientific research data that shows that the WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan is creating chimearic gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus. This is a fact. The US banned this research in 2014 because of the risk of what happened happening.

I'm not doubting this. I think those labs are terrible and should be stopped. I'm just stating the research at the moment does not appear to support your belief.

***I just read some of your peer reviewed stuff and it wasn't peer reviewed and stating anything at all like you are stating.*** I see this often. People state it's peer reviewed to prove their point but it's not proving your point at all.

This is a conclusion of your peer reviewed study.
"Our rigorous training program will reduce the risk of harm or exposure to laboratory staff working with highly pathogenic agents"

This is another one "Editors’ note, January 2020: Many stories have promoted an unverified theory that the Wuhan lab discussed in this article played a role in the coronavirus outbreak that began in December 2019. Nature knows of no evidence that this is true; ***scientists believe the most likely source of the coronavirus to be an animal market."***

I agree that it's not really open to debate at this point in time. There is no evidence at all supporting your viewpoint and there is evidence disputing your viewpoint.

I think I said earlier I don't like those types of labs. I also don't trust China as far as I can throw them. I trust the science though.

 

[happy_tiger]

I'm not taking a vaccine from the Umbrella Corp or the dude in I am Legend..

I'm afraid of needles so I'm doomed either way...

You can run around Leichhardt and we can throw the needle at you ...just act surprised when it hits you ..maybe do a few laps ....

 

[earl]

Would you go as far as to say that if there was a lab somewhere that was intentionally creating chimearic, gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus, in a manner that was banned by the US in 2014 because of the risk…that this would be as inherently risky?

Definitely. I said I watched a show to educate myself on this stuff. One of the inherent risks are the way people eat exotic animals. Another risk was any lab completing this type of research. I even think but I can't be bothered trying to get the information that viruses have leaked from labs prior to this event.

I'm not trying to prove I'm right. I'm trying to follow the science. I'm trying to use facts.

At this point it just doesn't appear that this was a man made created virus. I believe this is the case because of genomic testing. I believe if it was man made this would have been proven by now. The virus has been studied a lot.

If you come up with proof and not dodgy articles that don't prove your point one little bit I'm happy to read it.

 

[Tiger5150]

Ironically he also said “Someone who continually denies reality has mental health issues.” I can only assume Earl doesnt consider reality to include science.

Definitely not. We should always listen to science. There have been so many crazy theories on here. Yours is another theory that has no basis in science.

Ok let me get this straight. You are saying my theory has no basis in science?

My theory is as follows:

1.There IS a lab in Wuhan, called WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan. The main research that this lab does is creating chimearic gain of function coronaviruses from bats and SARS, bats and mice and bats and pangolins. They do this by recombination of other known coronaviruses. This is not speculation, it is fact as evidence by the published peer reviewed scientific research such as....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797993/

2. COVID19 is a chimaeric gain of function coronavirus from a recombination of bat and pangolin virus as stated by all the scientific literature as well as every opinion article you posted.

3. Creating chimearic gain of function coronaviruses in scientific research is so risky that the US banned it in 2014..
https://www.nature.com/news/us-suspends-risky-disease-research-1.16192
This risk was identified in a Nature article in 2018 quoting Simon Wain-Hobson, a virologist at the Pasteur Institute in Paris as saying that the researchers at the WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan have "have created a novel virus that “grows remarkably well” in human cells. “If the virus escaped, nobody could predict the trajectory,”
https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debate-over-risky-research-1.18787

Can you point out which part of my theory, 1, 2 or 3 has "no basis in science"?

 

[mike]

I'm not taking a vaccine from the Umbrella Corp or the dude in I am Legend..

I'm afraid of needles so I'm doomed either way...

Just look the other way.

I'm scared of things I can't see.

There’s no hope for you. Germs must make you catatonic !!!!