Coronavirus Outbreak

[Tiger5150]

Would you go as far as to say that if there was a lab somewhere that was intentionally creating chimearic, gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus, in a manner that was banned by the US in 2014 because of the risk…that this would be as inherently risky?

Definitely. ***I said I watched a show to educate myself on this stuff***. One of the inherent risks are the way people eat exotic animals. Another risk was any lab completing this type of research. I even think but I can't be bothered trying to get the information that viruses have leaked from labs prior to this event.

You watched a show? I have tried not to post this but I did BSc at USyd, but even that is irrelevant because it doesnt really mean anything. What does mean something, is that I posted the actual peer reviewed scientific research into this stuff and you simply disregard it.



I'm not trying to prove I'm right. I'm trying to follow the science. I'm trying to use facts.


Earl Im not sure if you are trolling now. I have literally been posting peer reviewed scientific research publications. This is literally the science, this is how science works. You have posted a few opinion articles. That is the opposite of science.


If you come up with proof and not dodgy articles that don't prove your point one little bit I'm happy to read it.

Dodgy articles? I didnt post articles. I posted actual published peer reviewed scientific research and two nature journals. Im seriously pretty sure you dont understand how science works.

Let me try to short cut this because either we are going around in circles because you dont understand science or alternatively you are intentionally trolling and Im not interested in feeding trolls.

You said before that you think *"studying these viruses is inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions."*

No argument from me.

Do you think that if there was a lab somewhere intentionally creating the same viruses that this would also be "inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions."

Answer only that question.

 

[Tiger5150]

I wouldn’t rule out that this virus was developed and planted to see how it would react in human populace

You can rule it out because the virus has been studied multiple times and no one believes it was created in a lab.

It could have been studied in a lab and gotten that way but I think it's much more likely like other transmissions of viruses it just happened in nature.

This is the same as the Spanish Flu or SARS 1 or MER.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Potential_origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_respiratory_syndrome

None of those viruses were chimaeric and none of them had gain of function features, so exactly the same except totally different.

Fun fact. Do you know how they discovered the make up and origin of SARS1? It was discovered by reverse engineering of a chimaeric gain of function virus at WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan. They discovered that a gain of function virus that they created readily infected humans and attacked the same receptors as SARS. They traced backwards that it must come from horseshoe bats.

 

[earl]

Can you point out which part of my theory, 1, 2 or 3 has “no basis in science”?

I'll try and explain it to you. You have a theory that the virus was created in a lab. You've provided two links to your theory. Those links completely refute your theory.

So you need poof which you don't have. The conclusions of your papers which weren't even papers either explicailly deny your theory or they don't even touch on your point.

Then there is a counter point and that counter point is pretty simple. The counter point is that the virus has been studied a lot. No reputed scientist has proven that this was a man made disease. In fact the predominant scientific consensus is that this like a bunch of other viruses was transmitted from animals to humans.

So basically you have no proof at all and there is a lot of evidence against your theory.

At this point we can safely state that you are following a loony tunes conspiracy theory. If you have the ability to use logic and reason you have to at this point in time admit your theory is false. That is the rational and logical conclusion.

 

[Tiger5150]

Would you go as far as to say that if there was a lab somewhere that was intentionally creating chimearic, gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus, in a manner that was banned by the US in 2014 because of the risk…that this would be as inherently risky?

Definitely. I said I watched a show to educate myself on this stuff.

I earlier derided the fact that you watched a show to educate yourself on this stuff, but if you truly want to watch a show to learn this, I genuinely suggest these two videos show a prominent evolutionary biologist who specialises in bats. Very interesting, not conspiratorial and 100 based in scientific facts.

https://youtu.be/q5SRrsr-Iug
https://youtu.be/61l6sZqA_Ac

 

[earl]

Answer only that question.

You aren't getting the point. I have stated it's risky studying these viruses.

I'm going to repeat what was in those articles:

***1. Government to cease funding gain-of-function studies that make viruses more dangerous, pending a safety assessment.***

This has nothing at all to do with COIVD-19 being created in a lab.

***2. A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence***

If anything this disproves your point. It definitely has nothing at all to do with COVID being created in a lab.

***3. Editors’ note, March 2020: We are aware that this story is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered. There is no evidence that this is true; scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus.***

Another article that disproves your point.

Please don't state I'm trolling. I am being logical and following your evidence. You don't have any proof at all and there is a tonne of evidence against your at this point crazy belief. Your evidence is actually against your point.

You need to take a step back and just rest and relax. If you can come up with some better proof show it. I will listen to the science and proof. You aren't doing that.

I try and be rational and logical and utilize science. If you can fault my logic please do so. Your logic has just been proven to be inaccurate.

 

[Tiger5150]

Answer only that question.

You aren't getting the point. I have stated it's risky studying these viruses.

Ok lets see if you are a troll.

I'm going to repeat what was in those articles:

***1. Government to cease funding gain-of-function studies that make viruses more dangerous, pending a safety assessment.***

This has nothing at all to do with COIVD-19 being created in a lab.

COVID19 is a chimeric gain of function coronavirus. WIV BSL4 Lab create chimeric gain of function coronaviruses....in Wuhan. The US Government banned this research because it is dangerous and poses the risk that a chimeric gain of function coronavirus can escape. Surely you can follow that?

***2. A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence***

If anything this disproves your point. It definitely has nothing at all to do with COVID being created in a lab.

Did you read it? Which part disproves my point? My point is that WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan creates chimeric gain of function coronaviruses to discover the transmissibilty to humans. Which part of an article by WIV BSL4 Lab about creating an unnatural chimeric gain of function coronavirus from a bat and a mouse that they discovered was extremely infectious to humans disproves itself?


***3. Editors’ note, March 2020: We are aware that this story is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered. There is no evidence that this is true; scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus.***


I already said that the header said that, what is your point?

Another article that disproves your point.

My point, clearly expressed is that in 2018 a virologist at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, said of the Wuhan Lab research that they *"have created a novel virus that “grows remarkably well” in human cells. “If the virus escaped, nobody could predict the trajectory,”* sound familiar? What part of that quote disprove my point?


Please don't state I'm trolling. I am being logical and following your evidence. You don't have any proof at all and there is a tonne of evidence against your at this point crazy belief. Your evidence is actually against your point.

You need to take a step back and just rest and relax. If you can come up with some better proof show it. I will listen to the science and proof. You aren't doing that.

You are either trolling or incapable of logical thought.

YOU YOURSELF said that you *"think studying these viruses is inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions."*

For the sake of all that is right in the world, THIS IS MY WHOLE THEORY!!!! You agree with me! The lab in Wuhan not only ***studies these*** viruses.......IT CREATES THEM as proven in the peer reviewed research I provided. If you can not parse from that research that they are making and studying gain of function chimearic coronaviruses at the WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan, you MUST be trolling.

 

[earl]

@Tiger5150 - you don't seem to understand how to state a logical argument.

You don't have any proof at all that COVID was created in Wuhan in a lab. None at all. You have papers you are using as proof that don't state anything at all like you are stating.

You have to be logical and you aren't coming up with a cognizant argument.

What you are providing some evidence of the following:-

1. There is a virus lab in Wuhan.
2. There is a risk of viruses that are being studied getting out of these types of labs.

These points though are refuted in your articles for the specific case of COVID being created in a lab in Wuhan. Your theory is also refuted by the fact that that the scientific community are stating that COVID is not a man made disease.

You have a general point that I agree with.

You do not have any proof that COVID was created in a lab. In fact your proof clearly states the following point which I've copied and pasted directly from your links:-

***Editors’ note, March 2020: We are aware that this story is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered. There is no evidence that this is true; scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus.***

Just to re-state that point in your article again because you don't seem to get it:-
***scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus.***

 

[Harvey]

I think that the origin of the virus is still the subject of a number of theories, none of which have been proven. This is why the WHO is currently conducting an investigation.

If it was created in a lab, all evidence of this will have disappeared over the last 12 months. In China any potential whistleblowers are also likely to have disappeared.

Short of identifying patient zero or finding the virus in animals, it is unlikely that there will be definitive proof.

Given that the Chinese are suggesting that it existed prior to Wuhan and was introduced by the US military, I am not expecting any degree of cooperation.

 

[Nelson]

Would you go as far as to say that if there was a lab somewhere that was intentionally creating chimearic, gain of function viruses exactly like the COVID19 virus, in a manner that was banned by the US in 2014 because of the risk…that this would be as inherently risky?

Definitely. ***I said I watched a show to educate myself on this stuff***. One of the inherent risks are the way people eat exotic animals. Another risk was any lab completing this type of research. I even think but I can't be bothered trying to get the information that viruses have leaked from labs prior to this event.

You watched a show? I have tried not to post this but I did BSc at USyd, but even that is irrelevant because it doesnt really mean anything. What does mean something, is that I posted the actual peer reviewed scientific research into this stuff and you simply disregard it.



I'm not trying to prove I'm right. I'm trying to follow the science. I'm trying to use facts.


Earl Im not sure if you are trolling now. I have literally been posting peer reviewed scientific research publications. This is literally the science, this is how science works. You have posted a few opinion articles. That is the opposite of science.


If you come up with proof and not dodgy articles that don't prove your point one little bit I'm happy to read it.

Dodgy articles? I didnt post articles. I posted actual published peer reviewed scientific research and two nature journals. Im seriously pretty sure you dont understand how science works.

Let me try to short cut this because either we are going around in circles because you dont understand science or alternatively you are intentionally trolling and Im not interested in feeding trolls.

You said before that you think *"studying these viruses is inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions."*

No argument from me.

Do you think that if there was a lab somewhere intentionally creating the same viruses that this would also be "inherently risky and viruses will get out of these conditions."

Answer only that question.

What are the competing scientific theories that have also been published in peer reviewed articles and why are they wrong?

 

[Tiger5150]

@Tiger5150 - you don't seem to understand how to state a logical argument.

You don't have any proof at all that COVID was created in Wuhan in a lab. None at all. You have papers you are using as proof that don't state anything at all like you are stating.

You have to be logical and you aren't coming up with a cognizant argument.

What you are providing some evidence of the following:-

1. There is a virus lab in Wuhan.
2. There is a risk of viruses that are being studied getting out of these types of labs.

These points though are refuted in your articles for the specific case of COVID being created in a lab in Wuhan. Your theory is also refuted by the fact that that the scientific community are stating that COVID is not a man made disease.

You have a general point that I agree with.

You do not have any proof that COVID was created in a lab. In fact your proof clearly states the following point which I've copied and pasted directly from your links:-

***Editors’ note, March 2020: We are aware that this story is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered. There is no evidence that this is true; scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus.***

OK we are done. You are simply not reading what I am saying and I believe you are trolling.

I have said repeatedly there is no proof that COVID19 came from the lab. I CLEARLY stated that the editors note header supported the theory that it came from an animal.

Sorry to drag everyone else along with this.

you state it is a "crazy" conspiracy believed only by Trumpists and QAnon types that the virus could have escaped from the lab, then go on to say

 

[earl]

I have said repeatedly there is no proof that COVID19 came from the lab. I CLEARLY stated that the editors note header supported the theory that it came from an animal.

Awesome. Now we are on the same page. Let's just leave it there. I didn't notice you stating this until just now.

It's good to finally reach agreement on this topic.

 

[earl]

If it was created in a lab, all evidence of this will have disappeared over the last 12 months. In China any potential whistleblowers are also likely to have disappeared.

My understanding is that this isn't true. If it was created in a lab my understanding is that the virus itself would show signs of being created by man. As scientists have been studying this virus for a while and pretty intensively I don't think that this will be the case with COVID.

There are risks with studying viruses and in creating them which to me sounds like bio terrorism. If you are creating a virus it could get out. If you are studying a virus it could get out. These labs will argue that they are safe but in my opinion we shouldn't be following these lines of study.

In relation to COVID there is absolutely no evidence it was created by man. There is a remote possibility that it was being studied in a lab and due to poor processes it got out however there is absolutely no evidence of this. Viruses cross over from animals to humans regularly. This is how scientists currently believe COVID developed.

I'm not sure what the WHO will find but wet markets and exotic animal trade are high risk environments. Interestingly the elite in China like this exotic animal trade and this trade supports some poorer farmers in China.

 

[TrueTiger]

I have found this discussion very interesting,from wet market theories to lab constructed viruses released or leaked from the Wuhan facility...I have my opinion on this virus ,but will remain sitting on the fence until a full investigation can prove one way or another....
the only questions I raise in regard to this pandemic are...
1.Why when the Chinese found the virus in Wahun did they weld up apartment blocks containing infected people?seemed severe,unless they already knew how contagious it was...
2.When Scott Morrison asked about an investigation into where the virus started,why did the Chinese react so angrily toward us with tarriffs etc on our exports...
Im just asking because if it was so severe why didnt the Chinese straight away alert everyone and even seek help in controlling the virus with an open mind to helping the rest of the world contain it earlier..?

 

[Tiger5150]

I have said repeatedly there is no proof that COVID19 came from the lab. I CLEARLY stated that the editors note header supported the theory that it came from an animal.

Awesome. Now we are on the same page. Let's just leave it there. I didn't notice you stating this until just now.

It's good to finally reach agreement on this topic.

Just to be clear, we are not in agreement

 

[cochise]

I have found this discussion very interesting,from wet market theories to lab constructed viruses released or leaked from the Wuhan facility...I have my opinion on this virus ,but will remain sitting on the fence until a full investigation can prove one way or another....
the only questions I raise in regard to this pandemic are...
1.Why when the Chinese found the virus in Wahun did they weld up apartment blocks containing infected people?seemed severe,unless they already knew how contagious it was...
2.When Scott Morrison asked about an investigation into where the virus started,why did the Chinese react so angrily toward us with tarriffs etc on our exports...
Im just asking because if it was so severe why didnt the Chinese straight away alert everyone and even seek help in controlling the virus with an open mind to helping the rest of the world contain it earlier..?

Basically because that is China being China.

 

[innsaneink]

I have found this discussion very interesting,from wet market theories to lab constructed viruses released or leaked from the Wuhan facility...I have my opinion on this virus ,but will remain sitting on the fence until a full investigation can prove one way or another....
the only questions I raise in regard to this pandemic are...
1.Why when the Chinese found the virus in Wahun did they weld up apartment blocks containing infected people?seemed severe,unless they already knew how contagious it was...
2.When Scott Morrison asked about an investigation into where the virus started,why did the Chinese react so angrily toward us with tarriffs etc on our exports...
Im just asking because if it was so severe why didnt the Chinese straight away alert everyone and even seek help in controlling the virus with an open mind to helping the rest of the world contain it earlier..?

We all know why... Guilt

 

[earl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx16-r7z6ho&list=TLPQMjQwMTIwMjEK7Vd2K-Jgdw&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLykxJqTBpU&list=TLPQMjQwMTIwMjEK7Vd2K-Jgdw&index=4

These are some good videos on the origination of COVID.

***It's pretty obvious that this virus is not man made.*** It could have come out of a lab if the virus was being studied in a lab and the WHO intend to check that however there is no evidence of this occurring at all.

Interestingly the virus could have been around for a while longer and it only recently mutated and spread.

Finding the exact source is not going to be easy.

 

[Tiger5150]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx16-r7z6ho&list=TLPQMjQwMTIwMjEK7Vd2K-Jgdw&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLykxJqTBpU&list=TLPQMjQwMTIwMjEK7Vd2K-Jgdw&index=4

These are some good videos on the origination of COVID.

***It's pretty obvious that this virus is not man made.*** It could have come out of a lab if the virus was being studied in a lab and the WHO intend to check that however there is no evidence of this occurring at all.

Interestingly the virus could have been around for a while longer and it only recently mutated and spread.

Finding the exact source is not going to be easy.

Thank you for posting videos that 100% verify my hypothesis that this virus could have originated in the WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan (3:38 in first video). By the way if you bothered or were capable of reading the peer reviewed research findings that I posted out of that lab, you would know that the chimeric gain of function viruses that are created in that lab are all completely natural, that it is what chimeric means, its a recombination of other natural viruses, but that doesnt mean they are ever found in nature. Thats why the lab exists.

According to an Australian virologist that is part of the WHO investigation team in China at the moment, it is not set in stone as you suggest. Dominic Dwyer states *""**Did** it come from an animal source and **if** so, which one? **What was the role of laboratories** in all of this? I think we'll have a better idea."*

So in your mind its a crazy conspiracy theory, that the WHO are also investigating.

In your words *"It could have come out of a lab if the virus was being studied in a lab"*. This has always been my entire point, my hypothesis and repeatedly you have said it is crazy and a QAnon conspiracy theory. But when you say it, its not? When I say it, its a conspiracy theory?

 

[Tiger5150]

Following on from this recent discussion, the following article is a great article that examines the possibilities that it is a completely natural origin (in the wild), the possibility that it was an escape from a lab and the way that people claiming the lab leav theory is a conspiracy is wrong and clouds the investigation, along with quotes from many virologists stating that the lab leak is a viable hypothesis. This includes Shi Zhengli who is the virologist from WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan who discovered the origin of SARS1 who reveals that her first thought when she heard about it is that it came from her lab.

A LONG way from a conspiracy theory

https://www.cnet.com/features/the-lab-leak-theory-and-the-twisted-messy-hunt-for-covid-19s-origin/

 

[Tiger5150]

Further to the brief discussion, particularly between @cochise and I regarding the current WHO investigation and whether they will be able to conduct an investigation that will cover all possibilities, including the lab leak hypothesis and be trusted and accepted by all.

I introduce you to Peter Daszak. Peter Daszak is a virologist, I have no reason to think he is anything but an exception virologist and based on his career is a well respected virologist and has a specialty in bat borne viruses. For the ***last 15 years*** he has been working with, for and at the ***WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan***. Over the last 7 years his company EcoHealth Alliance has received US$40M from the US Department of Defense for research carried out in partnership with WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan. Last year he had US$7.5M in grants cancelled by the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) because of his close partnership with WIV BSL4 Lab in Wuhan.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02473-4
https://www.independentsciencenews.org/news/peter-daszaks-ecohealth-alliance-has-hidden-almost-40-million-in-pentagon-funding/

OK, now guess who the WHO have chosen to head up their "independent" investigation into the origins of the virus in Wuhan?

I swear the WHO couldnt be less transparent or less trustworthy if they tried.