Coronavirus Outbreak

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

The whole world is a guaranteed market if you develop the first vaccine for Covid19.

Not if it disappears (like SARS1 which was deadlier) or the world deals with it other ways or develops herd immunity (like Spanish flu). The US pre-ordered early July, 3 months in. If COVID2 went the same way as SARS1 or Spanish Flu, there is zero market and millions of dollars are blown, or you dont develop a vaccine (like SARS1 or Spanish Flu)........unless of course, someone comes along with a $1.92B preorder.

Because every virologist and biological scientist on the planet was working towards a vaccine.

Well for starters, thats rubbish. Not every virologist or biological scientist was working towards a vaccine. You know which ones were? They ones who were paid to do so. YOu know which ones were paid to do so? The ones who worked for a company that had decided that it was worth spending millions of $$$ on R&D because there was a market. You know which companies were most confident and therefore paid virologists to R&D a vaccine? Im sure companies that had been guaranteed $ 1.92B in orders would have been among them.

 

[Nelson]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

The whole world is a guaranteed market if you develop the first vaccine for Covid19.



Not if it disappears (like SARS1 which was deadlier) or the world deals with it other ways or develops herd immunity (like Spanish flu). The US pre-ordered early July, 3 months in. If COVID2 went the same way as SARS1 or Spanish Flu, there is zero market and millions of dollars are blown, or you dont develop a vaccine (like SARS1 or Spanish Flu)........unless of course, someone comes along with a $1.92B preorder.

Because every virologist and biological scientist on the planet was working towards a vaccine.

Well for starters, thats rubbish. Not every virologist or biological scientist was working towards a vaccine. You know which ones were? They ones who were paid to do so. YOu know which ones were paid to do so? The ones who worked for a company that had decided that it was worth spending millions of $$$ on R&D because there was a market. You know which companies were most confident and therefore paid virologists to R&D a vaccine? Im sure companies that had been guaranteed $ 1.92B in orders would have been among them.

Well they weren’t paid by Warp Speed that’s for sure. I will guarantee that the majority of the planets virologist and biological science resources were working on a vaccine.

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

The whole world is a guaranteed market if you develop the first vaccine for Covid19.



Not if it disappears (like SARS1 which was deadlier) or the world deals with it other ways or develops herd immunity (like Spanish flu). The US pre-ordered early July, 3 months in. If COVID2 went the same way as SARS1 or Spanish Flu, there is zero market and millions of dollars are blown, or you dont develop a vaccine (like SARS1 or Spanish Flu)........unless of course, someone comes along with a $1.92B preorder.

Because every virologist and biological scientist on the planet was working towards a vaccine.

Well for starters, thats rubbish. Not every virologist or biological scientist was working towards a vaccine. You know which ones were? They ones who were paid to do so. YOu know which ones were paid to do so? The ones who worked for a company that had decided that it was worth spending millions of $$$ on R&D because there was a market. You know which companies were most confident and therefore paid virologists to R&D a vaccine? Im sure companies that had been guaranteed $ 1.92B in orders would have been among them.

Who guaranteed the University of Queensland #1.92B preorder to develop their vaccine that recently failed?

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?

There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

The whole world is a guaranteed market if you develop the first vaccine for Covid19.



Not if it disappears (like SARS1 which was deadlier) or the world deals with it other ways or develops herd immunity (like Spanish flu). The US pre-ordered early July, 3 months in. If COVID2 went the same way as SARS1 or Spanish Flu, there is zero market and millions of dollars are blown, or you dont develop a vaccine (like SARS1 or Spanish Flu)........unless of course, someone comes along with a $1.92B preorder.

Because every virologist and biological scientist on the planet was working towards a vaccine.

Well for starters, thats rubbish. Not every virologist or biological scientist was working towards a vaccine. You know which ones were? They ones who were paid to do so. YOu know which ones were paid to do so? The ones who worked for a company that had decided that it was worth spending millions of $$$ on R&D because there was a market. You know which companies were most confident and therefore paid virologists to R&D a vaccine? Im sure companies that had been guaranteed $ 1.92B in orders would have been among them.

Who guaranteed the University of Queensland #1.92B preorder to develop their vaccine that recently failed?

Aus Govt preoredered $1.72B worth

https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-greg-hunt-mp/media/australian-government-finalises-university-of-queensland-csl-covid-19-vaccine-agreement

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Yes they were over quickly, it was fairly obvious to everyone back in March that this wasn't going to be over quickly.

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.

If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Yes they were over quickly, it was fairly obvious to everyone back in March that this wasn't going to be over quickly.

My last word on this with you. Is it your honest opinion that a preorder of $1.92B, 5 months ago, only 3 months into a novel outbreak had ZERO impact on the development of the vaccine?

 

[tigger]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

The whole world is a guaranteed market if you develop the first vaccine for Covid19.



Not if it disappears (like SARS1 which was deadlier) or the world deals with it other ways or develops herd immunity (like Spanish flu). The US pre-ordered early July, 3 months in. If COVID2 went the same way as SARS1 or Spanish Flu, there is zero market and millions of dollars are blown, or you dont develop a vaccine (like SARS1 or Spanish Flu)........unless of course, someone comes along with a $1.92B preorder.

Because every virologist and biological scientist on the planet was working towards a vaccine.

Well for starters, thats rubbish. Not every virologist or biological scientist was working towards a vaccine. You know which ones were? They ones who were paid to do so. YOu know which ones were paid to do so? The ones who worked for a company that had decided that it was worth spending millions of $$$ on R&D because there was a market. You know which companies were most confident and therefore paid virologists to R&D a vaccine? Im sure companies that had been guaranteed $ 1.92B in orders would have been among them.

I get what you're saying T5150. I started off thinking you were nuts, but if I've read your posts correctly you are saying this:

That there are 2 major risks that a coronavirus vaccine developer faces:

(1) that the vaccine they are developing will fail

(2) that the coronavirus will disappear of it's own accord before the vaccine can be brought to market

The pre-order by the USA government takes the second risk out of play (to some extent) but not the first.

However I'm not sure that the USA commitment would have altered anything that Pfizer was doing. I say this because I think that risk 1 is probably the more substantial risk and also because I doubt that the pre-order by the USA covered all development costs. If so, risk 2 will only be partially mitigated.

But if you were a vaccine developer I guess it would certainly give you some confidence to push on with the process. You would rather have it than not have it.

I suspect there might also be a third risk, that someone will develop a better vaccine, or one that is easier to distribute or cheaper to manufacture. The USA commitment probably partially mitigates those risks as well (in the short term).

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Yes they were over quickly, it was fairly obvious to everyone back in March that this wasn't going to be over quickly.


My last word on this with you. Is it your honest opinion that a preorder of $1.92B, 5 months ago, only 3 months into a novel outbreak had ZERO impact on the development of the vaccine?

At no point did I say it had zero impact, I said it wasn't funded by the US government. I think it probably gave them a little more confidence in pushing ahead with R&D but it meant nothing if it failed, just like the uni of QLD failed last week. Pfizer took more risk here than Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon did in pushing this. He is the one seeking all the credit though. All the US government did was preorder. Hey I preordered the PS5 do I get some credit if it is a successful console?

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.

So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Yes they were over quickly, it was fairly obvious to everyone back in March that this wasn't going to be over quickly.


My last word on this with you. Is it your honest opinion that a preorder of $1.92B, 5 months ago, only 3 months into a novel outbreak had ZERO impact on the development of the vaccine?

At no point did I say it had zero impact, I said it wasn't funded by the US government.

Understood, and at no point have I said that the US Govt funded it. I have merely said that the US Govt DID allocate US taxpayer dollars to it in the interests of it being developed and sped up. I think it is obvious and mindless (with politics the only motive) to suggest otherwise.

I think it probably gave them a little more confidence in pushing ahead with R&D but it meant nothing if it failed, just like the uni of QLD failed last week. Pfizer took more risk here than Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon did in pushing this.

Risk/Reward. As many here have said, Pfizer stands to be heavily rewarded if they develop the vaccine. US Govt mitigated some of the risk and in doing so, improve the chance and speed of the development.

>He is the one seeking all the credit though.

Thats a matter of opinion and judgement. What difference does it make to the facts if Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon claims credit or not?

>All the US government did was preorder. Hey I preordered the PS5 do I get some credit if it is a successful console?

That is not all that the US Government did at all, as I have been trying to explain ( and thank God Tigger understood, I was questioning my faith in forum members), the US Govt created a guaranteed market. You pre-ordered your PS***5*** in a market that had previously included a PS1, PS2, PS3, PS4 and therefore the market was established and reliable. There has never been a previous market for coronavirus vaccines, in fact previous markets have unpredictably vapourised early.

The COVID vaccine is a futures market, not an existing market and operates more like a crowdfunded or Kickstarter market, like OCULUS with Kickstarter. There was no market for OCULUS and they had a kickstarter that guaranteed $ 250K which was enough for the R&D and they were away. The US Govt $1.92B is Pfizers Kickstarter.

Additionally, that is not all the US GOVT did.

From that noted right wing journal **Bloomberg**


Operation Warp Speed Vaccine Investments
Companies Amount Invested Phase
Sanofi with GSK $2b 1/2
Pfizer with BioNTech $1.95b 3
Novavax $1.6b 1/2 (US) 3 (UK)
Moderna $2.5b 3
Johnson & Johnson $1.5b 3
AstraZeneca $1.2b 3
Data: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

*Operation Warp Speed isn’t an agency as such, but rather a mechanism to coordinate among private companies and an array of U.S. government bodies: the Department of Defense, HHS, the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and beyond. More than 600 people in HHS and 90 people from the DOD are involved. “It’s a coordination activity that helps to cut through the bureaucracy faster,” says Paul Stoffels, chief scientific officer at Johnson & Johnson. OWS has awarded more than ***$12 billion in vaccine-related contracts and has an overall budget of as much as $18 billion***.*

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-10-29/inside-operation-warp-speed-s-18-billion-sprint-for-a-vaccine

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.

Lets clear up the changing goal posts....Did I say "case mortality" in the preceeding post before you proceeded to give me the definition of *incidence*?

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


Lets clear up the changing goal posts....Did I say "case mortality" in the preceeding post before you proceeded to give me the definition of *incidence*?

You were trying to prove that we didn’t develop a vaccine for MERS but is more deadly than Covid19. I simply showed you why that is not true and why we developed a vaccine for Covid19 in 9 months. The maths and numbers don’t lie.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Like I stated earlier, here we go again.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


Lets clear up the changing goal posts....Did I say "case mortality" in the preceeding post before you proceeded to give me the definition of *incidence*?

You were trying to prove that we didn’t develop a vaccine for MERS but is more deadly than Covid19. I simply showed you why that is not true and why we developed a vaccine for Covid19 in 9 months. The maths and numbers don’t lie.

Thats not what I asked and the fact you wouldnt answer my question clearly demonstrates that you are more focussed on semantics and twisting words to win a point.


I clearly (and simply) showed that the case mortality rates for SARS and MERS are between 10x and 30 x higher than they are for COVID. To back this up I quoted actual peer reviewed articles that prove this. I **used the words** case mortality which is correct and accurately define the case mortality between the three coronaviruses. I was 100% correct.

You (simply) twisted my words and provided me with the definition of the *incidence* of COVID v SARS & MERS which I clearly knew because in my earlier post I said that SARS & MERS were not as contagious. Which disease would you rather? A virus with 35% case mortality, 15% , case mortality or approx 1% case mortality?

The reason that there was never a vaccine for SARS or MERS is because there was never a market for SARS and MERS, despite the fact they both had a much higher case mortality rate, which is kinda, you know....the whole point.