Coronavirus Outbreak

[Tim Sheens]

Gold standard

For mine those two words laid the foundation for us to be in this terrible predicament.

I don't blame a lot of the people that got caught up in the narrative that was dished out in huge scoops. It was sad though to see people parroting that which those in the highest positions in our nation's halls of power were propagating to attack certain Premiers, letting the dogs loose on one in particular.

Gladys allowed herself to be manipulated somewhat as well, joining in to nurture an us versus them approach. Again, other state leaders of the same party didn't and it was sad to see such playing out and more so that it crept into here with a strong presence at times.

We had Morrison joining in with Clive Palmer to try and force opening borders, a guy that is sending misinformation pamphlets via letterbox drops to lockdown LGA's and working with Craig Kelly and Christensen. Possibly Canavan as well.

I have no doubt that clasping to that narrative has resulted in the majority of the country being in various stages and lengths of lockdown. **Basically the second Ruby Princess debacle** **playing out**, as an obvious problem and letting it spread far and wide.

 

[tigger]

Increase to fines and 5km distance from home for all of Sydney.

It will be interesting to see if that has an effect. NSW Police going through the extra enforcement powers now...

I doubt it. Some people just don't care. I don't blame Gladys either. The rules have been clear to me for ages.

Just got back from my daily walk in lockdown. Still heaps of people without masks on outside. I don't think wearing masks outdoors stops the spread. I do think the amount of people not wearing masks or wearing them on their neck shows that people just don't comply.

I spoke to a mate yesterday and he told me that COVID apparently often targets peoples necks.

Policy can't just be made on the assumption that everyone will do the right thing. Some people don't and there has been plenty of evidence of that (not that any were needed). That needs to be factored into policy responses otherwise you are just proceeding on a false premise and will fail.
The increased fines and the like that were introduced today needed to be introduced many weeks ago. There have been too many people being non-compliant for too long and it has been clear for some time that greater disincentives for those people were required. Instead, they let it drift and here we are at 466 cases in a day and regional spread. It has not been handled well.

I think that part of the problem is that the initial lockdown instructions were vague and full of loopholes. The government unwittingly (I think) sent a message that it wasn't too fussed about its own rules. I can recall Gladys saying very early in the piece that people shouldn't be meeting up with each other *unless they really have to!*
What sort of a message was that?
Also the failure to define 'essential workers" because it was too hard to do. (Vic did it, they could have gone onto the Vic Govt. website and downloaded their list - that would have been a starting point at least).
In the main there has been a high level of compliance in Victoria. I don't think we have any less ratbag sovereign citizens down here, I just think we got a much less ambiguous message about what was required, right from the start.

 

[earl]

Increase to fines and 5km distance from home for all of Sydney.

It will be interesting to see if that has an effect. NSW Police going through the extra enforcement powers now...

I doubt it. Some people just don't care. I don't blame Gladys either. The rules have been clear to me for ages.

Just got back from my daily walk in lockdown. Still heaps of people without masks on outside. I don't think wearing masks outdoors stops the spread. I do think the amount of people not wearing masks or wearing them on their neck shows that people just don't comply.

I spoke to a mate yesterday and he told me that COVID apparently often targets peoples necks.

Policy can't just be made on the assumption that everyone will do the right thing. Some people don't and there has been plenty of evidence of that (not that any were needed). That needs to be factored into policy responses otherwise you are just proceeding on a false premise and will fail.
The increased fines and the like that were introduced today needed to be introduced many weeks ago. There have been too many people being non-compliant for too long and it has been clear for some time that greater disincentives for those people were required. Instead, they let it drift and here we are at 466 cases in a day and regional spread. It has not been handled well.

I don't think policy is made based on the assumption that everyone will do the right thing. I think that is too simplistic an argument.

Clearly we should have locked down hard as soon as we had a case. That would have probably stopped this occurring. At the same time this is getting out all over world. It's a matter of time.

Still people don't care. There were people attending lockdown protests in the middle of this outbreak. I've heard people on here try to argue COVID doesn't exist, we aren't in a pandemic and vaccines don't work. We've had vaccines available for a while especially for the over 70 and people argue that it's somehow the governments fault they aren't vaccinated.

People are hopeless. This isn't a joke or a game but it must be at least 10% of society who think that is the case.

At what point does some personal responsibility come into the picture.

My comment about policy being made on the assumption that everyone will do the right thing was in response to your comments that you don't blame Gladys and that the rules have been clear to you for ages. You are not the problem that Gladys needs to address, it is the non-compliant people. That's where policy becomes more difficult, and in keeping compliant people compliant over time.
Personal responsibility doesn't really come into it. Just because you think people should take personal responsibility doesn't mean they will. Plenty of people never do. Plenty of people are jerks. So you need policy measures to deal with them. Would all those idiot protestors have turned up if it was a $10,000 fine they were looking at rather than a $1,000 fine? Some of them would have, sure, but not as many.

People are so dumb I'm not surprised what they do.

I'll give an example. I'm 48. My mate calls me up last night and tells me another mate has just called him up as he was drink driving to go down to the bottle shop. The freaken moron is 48 and supporting a wife and 2 kids and he goes drink driving in lock down.

I agree with your comments though. You can put more pressure on them to stop. I just don't know how you manage such stupidity.

To me it's the madness not to be vaccinated and I'm not talking about the cost to society. I'm talking about your personal risk profile. We can't though mandate vaccination.

I get where you are coming from. You are sort of correct. The problem I have is people just keep making poor decisions. I don't see why politicians are continually blamed for our poor decisions.

 

[Zach]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/08/most-covid-patients-at-israeli-hospital-fully-vaccinated-what-does-this-mean-for-australia/

What do you all think of this article? i found it quite interesting....
P.s, i did not post for an argument, i would just be interested to hear those who are fully vaccinated what their response/opinion on the potential of this being a legitimate concern down the line...

I haven't read the article but your post reeks of cherry picking facts to try and make a point that vaccination doesn't work.

okay....so you haven't read the article but you conclude that I'm trying to do something facetious here?.....riiiiiight. How about you read the article and then form an opinion.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Increase to fines and 5km distance from home for all of Sydney.

It will be interesting to see if that has an effect. NSW Police going through the extra enforcement powers now...

I doubt it. Some people just don't care. I don't blame Gladys either. The rules have been clear to me for ages.

Just got back from my daily walk in lockdown. Still heaps of people without masks on outside. I don't think wearing masks outdoors stops the spread. I do think the amount of people not wearing masks or wearing them on their neck shows that people just don't comply.

I spoke to a mate yesterday and he told me that COVID apparently often targets peoples necks.

Policy can't just be made on the assumption that everyone will do the right thing. Some people don't and there has been plenty of evidence of that (not that any were needed). That needs to be factored into policy responses otherwise you are just proceeding on a false premise and will fail.
The increased fines and the like that were introduced today needed to be introduced many weeks ago. There have been too many people being non-compliant for too long and it has been clear for some time that greater disincentives for those people were required. Instead, they let it drift and here we are at 466 cases in a day and regional spread. It has not been handled well.

I think that part of the problem is that the initial lockdown instructions were vague and full of loopholes. The government unwittingly (I think) sent a message that it wasn't too fussed about its own rules. I can recall Gladys saying very early in the piece that people shouldn't be meeting up with each other *unless they really have to!*
What sort of a message was that?
Also the failure to define 'essential workers" because it was too hard to do. (Vic did it, they could have gone onto the Vic Govt. website and downloaded their list - that would have been a starting point at least).
In the main there has been a high level of compliance in Victoria. I don't think we have any less ratbag sovereign citizens down here, I just think we got a much less ambiguous message about what was required, right from the start.

Yeah, talk to your boss and decide as a pair whether your job is essential.

 

[mike]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/08/most-covid-patients-at-israeli-hospital-fully-vaccinated-what-does-this-mean-for-australia/

What do you all think of this article? i found it quite interesting....
P.s, i did not post for an argument, i would just be interested to hear those who are fully vaccinated what their response/opinion on the potential of this being a legitimate concern down the line...

Probably means we need boosters @ six months until the vaccines are tuned to the Delta variant.

 

[Tiger5150]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/08/most-covid-patients-at-israeli-hospital-fully-vaccinated-what-does-this-mean-for-australia/

What do you all think of this article? i found it quite interesting....
P.s, i did not post for an argument, i would just be interested to hear those who are fully vaccinated what their response/opinion on the potential of this being a legitimate concern down the line...

I think it is mostly mathematical semantics. The whole article states percentages of hospitalisations that are vaccinated. The mathematical reality is that as you approach 70-80% of the population vaccinated, then as pure factor of mathematics you are going to get higher percentages of vaxxed people but what is important is total numbers. I would expect that simply as a factor of simple mathematics after high levels of vaccination that overall total numbers of people hospitalised will drop but of the ones hospitalised, the percentage of vaxxed will increase. Its unavoidable and meaningless.

Additionally, even without vaccination only 10% of those who contract require hospitalisation and of course those of a certain age or comorbidities are most vulnerable. The fact is that those that are most vulnerable have all been vaccinated and therefore if they contract it again, they will be more likely to be hospitalised which would also account for higher percentages of hospitalisations being vaxxed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/22/rates-of-double-jabbed-people-in-hospital-will-grow-but-that-does-not-mean-covid-vaccines-are-failing

Also that article isnt exactly gold standard data. Its an article quoting second "a doctor" who states incredibly rubbery numbers "85-90% which leads him to conclude......All very unscientific and pretty standard for misinformation.

Conversely Public Health England report that 34.9% of hospitalisations in July-Aug are fully vaccinated.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/6/nearly-35-percent-of-uk-delta-hospitalisations-fully-vaccinated

Percentages of hospitalisations vaccinated will rise but dont matter, absolute numbers hospitalised matter.

Preprint study published by Public Health England states that the Pfizer Vax is 96% effective against hospitalisation and that the AZ Vax is 92% effective. Both are based on the Delta variant (90% of UK cases).

https://khub.net/web/phe-national/public-library/-/document_library/v2WsRK3ZlEig/view_file/479607329?_com_liferay_document_library_web_portlet_DLPortlet_INSTANCE_v2WsRK3ZlEig_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fkhub.net%3A443%2Fweb%2Fphe-national%2Fpublic-library%2F-%2Fdocument_library%2Fv2WsRK3ZlEig%2Fview%2F479607266

This is what is important. The vaccines are highly effective preventing hospitalisations. It is simple that mathematics will mean higher percentages will be vaxxed people.

 

[earl]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/08/most-covid-patients-at-israeli-hospital-fully-vaccinated-what-does-this-mean-for-australia/

What do you all think of this article? i found it quite interesting....
P.s, i did not post for an argument, i would just be interested to hear those who are fully vaccinated what their response/opinion on the potential of this being a legitimate concern down the line...

Probably means we need boosters @ six months until the vaccines are tuned to the Delta variant.

This isn't clear. It's still minimising severe illness and deaths. Efficacy is a funny figure. They are already recommending this for special situations but it's not clear cut.

The question about booster shots is a tough one. The issue is do we have a moral and ethical responsibility to give vaccines to the poorer countries who so far haven't received their fair share.

The reason I've stopped caring about people dying from COVID because they have beliefs on vaccines that don't correlate to the data is that there are going to me millions more deaths in people who can't access vaccines. If people in first world countries don't want the vaccines give them to the poor. They will take them.

 

[earl]

England is looking good now:-

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19/latestinsights

Some interesting figures:-

9 out of 10 people have antibodies.
468 deaths this week
Hospital admissions down
Infections are high
75% vaccination rate

Look at the deaths. That is a success story.

 

[Papacito]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/08/most-covid-patients-at-israeli-hospital-fully-vaccinated-what-does-this-mean-for-australia/

What do you all think of this article? i found it quite interesting....
P.s, i did not post for an argument, i would just be interested to hear those who are fully vaccinated what their response/opinion on the potential of this being a legitimate concern down the line...

When I read any article, i look at the author, the source and any stats they quote:

Source: Spectator, a very pro business website
Author: Law professor, no medical or science background. A bit more searching on Google revealed he's very anti vaccines
One reference I checked: Linked to Xinhua, which is one of the biggest propaganda pieces of the Chinese Communist party

All up, an extremely unreliable article.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Oh well, so sorry for those that are about to join in from 5pm, so from then on everyone of us here in NSW will be in lockdown this next week.

 

[Tiger5150]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/08/most-covid-patients-at-israeli-hospital-fully-vaccinated-what-does-this-mean-for-australia/

What do you all think of this article? i found it quite interesting....
P.s, i did not post for an argument, i would just be interested to hear those who are fully vaccinated what their response/opinion on the potential of this being a legitimate concern down the line...

Probably means we need boosters @ six months until the vaccines are tuned to the Delta variant.

It is quite likely we will all need boosters but that article doesnt back it up. That article has no data relating to the efficacy of the vaccines, it simply states the percentage of people in hospital that have been vaccinate. The percentages of people in hospital MUST rise as the overall population vaccinated rise, simple mathematics. Taken to the extreme, when 100% of the population is vaccinated, 100% of hospitalisations and deaths will be in vaccinated people. Percentages mean nothing, total number mean something.

The source of information in that article wasnt exactly gold standard and the data I posted from Public Health England (similar vax rates and Delta spread) have percentage of hospitalisations fully vaxed at 37%.

 

[earl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miHOqprNJhc

This will probably get screamed down because it's CNN. I think it shows a non statistical representation of vaccine hesitancy and the consequences of it.

 

[mike]

Gladys looking to fine the way out of lockdown

Gladys is doomed

I'm not sure. If she can get vaccination rates up and open up they will spin it to make out it's a resounding success.

If we keep vaccination rates and can get to 80% by November the situation will change. I have no idea when the next election is on.

I'm not political. I couldn't care less who governs us. They are all middle right to me and I like that.

The unelected police commissioner got his way. Gladys is as good as gone.

 

[Harvey]

Gladys looking to fine the way out of lockdown

Gladys is doomed

I'm not sure. If she can get vaccination rates up and open up they will spin it to make out it's a resounding success.

If we keep vaccination rates and can get to 80% by November the situation will change. I have no idea when the next election is on.

I'm not political. I couldn't care less who governs us. They are all middle right to me and I like that.

The unelected police commissioner got his way. Gladys is as good as gone.

Somebody had to bring intelligence into the decision making, because Gladys and Hazzard weren't

 

[mike]

Gladys looking to fine the way out of lockdown

Gladys is doomed

I'm not sure. If she can get vaccination rates up and open up they will spin it to make out it's a resounding success.

If we keep vaccination rates and can get to 80% by November the situation will change. I have no idea when the next election is on.

I'm not political. I couldn't care less who governs us. They are all middle right to me and I like that.

The unelected police commissioner got his way. Gladys is as good as gone.

Somebody had to bring intelligence into the decision making, because Gladys and Hazzard weren't

It won’t sit well with other members of the party having a police commissioner deciding policy and then being the enforcer of the same policy.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Watching a live report from Coogee with hardly a mask in sight and some wonder why this thing continues to spread to other areas.

 

[coivtny]

Watching a live report from Coogee with hardly a mask in sight and some wonder why this thing continues to spread to other areas.

But, if these people are outside they're not breaking the rules. It's not in an LGA of concern. Or, have I got it wrong?

 

[Magpie1969]

I am not a GP, Specialist or Scientist. I am a concerned parent of two and a citizen of Australia. I choose to follow people who are experts in their field not keyboard warriors. I want my freedom back and those of my family and friends. If experts believe two jabs can mitigate the severity of a virus that can not be erraticated then I am happy to respect their decision. Wife and I had AZ jab last week and next one mid Sept. We will get through this tough times but we all need to step up for the sake of each other. Not really much to ask. My 52nd birthday today so hope WT can Jag a win.

 

[Tiger5150]

I am not a GP, Specialist or Scientist. I am a concerned parent of two and a citizen of Australia. I choose to follow people who are experts in their field not keyboard warriors. I want my freedom back and those of my family and friends. If experts believe two jabs can mitigate the severity of a virus that can not be erraticated then I am happy to respect their decision. Wife and I had AZ jab last week and next one mid Sept. We will get through this tough times but we all need to step up for the sake of each other. Not really much to ask. My 52nd birthday today so hope WT can Jag a win.

I dont think there are many here advocating not to get vaxxed (maybe one or two).

oh,,,and Happy Birthday, I hope the Tigers can make it a good one.