Coronavirus Outbreak

[JD Tiger]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

 

[Eyeofthetiger 0]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

 

[shiretiger]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

 

[Eyeofthetiger 0]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

 

[JD Tiger]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

By my understanding, the vaccine is all about minimising the deadliness of the disease when you catch it, and maybe to minimise you spreading it as well.

It doesn't prevent you from catching it in the first place.

 

[Eyeofthetiger 0]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

By my understanding, the vaccine is all about minimising the deadliness of the disease when you catch it, and maybe to minimise you spreading it as well.

It doesn't prevent you from catching it in the first place.

But people in here have been losing it about the unvaxed not doing there bit for society and because of us old people are dying because we are spreading it. The Newcastle incident proves that the vaxed are doing a good job spreading it too

 

[leichhardtjunior]

This post isn't directed to anyone in particular, it is just a thought I had and thought it may be beneficial to share.

At the forefront in the to-vaccinate-or-not-to-vaccinate question for (at least some) people is social responsibility and personal freedom. There are other factors, including personal experience with previous vaccinations, distrust of the government and other forces encouraging the use of vaccinations, but I wanted to focus on social responsibility and personal freedom if I may.

I personally am very big on personal freedoms, choice, advocating for as little rules and regulations from presiding bodies over the masses as possible. On the other hand, living as part of a society, I understand that a lot of what we personally do is for the well-being of those around us (even though it's to our own personal detriment).

In my mind, when people have the position that they don't want to have the vaccination because it's being imposed on them, or that they choose not to for the sake of being able to choose, they are making that decision to the detriment of others - it's putting others at greater risk, which comes across as very selfish. And I think that is what contributes to the negative stigma anti-vaxxers are experiencing, the mindset of some of those people are valuing themselves and their own wants over everyone else.

There are plenty of worse things which are being imposed upon people's personal freedoms which I wish we would fight more against; the concept of defining a person through their role and attributing value to them as a person according to that role for one. But I won't go into that segway here.

I can only speak for myself JD, but I would argue that the erosion of freedoms is only part of an equation that people way up against things like the mortality rate of the virus, the demographic of those most at risk and the effectiveness of the vaccine to reduce transmission.
I think the proof is pretty clear that those most at risk are advanced age people and unhealthy people.
Now the thing those people can do is vaccinate to protect themselves. As some members of my family have done and as I would if I were in their shoes.
But theirs a clear misconception around the effectiveness of these vaccines to reduce transmission at the community level. People want to keep saying it’s nonsensical to say they’re not effective in that regard, but they are incorrect. These vaccines are not nearly effective enough at reducing transmission to have any real community effect. And that is a mathematical reality when you apply exponential growth to the equation. These strains are extremely transmissible and the vaccines are relatively ineffective in that regard.
So expecting the vast majority to be forced into taking on the responsibility to ‘save’ a vast minority is not scientifically or mathematically supported unfortunately. That is why highly vaccinated countries are still struggling with community spread.
Now people then want to then say it’s about supporting our medical system.
Well I’ll tell you this JD, I think it’s a crap argument.
Personally I’m fit and healthy because I make an effort take care of myself. I’ve paid for private health for over 20yrs and apart from the odd physio visit and a dental checkup every few years I get nothing out of it. However my premiums go up endlessly? I reckon that’s because of 2 things 1) profiting insurance companies, and 2) people who CHOOSE to be unhealthy.
The biggest drain on our health system is unhealthy people. Yet I don’t hear anyone suggesting that people should pay a ‘unhealthy lifestyle levy’?? Why don’t they have to take any responsibility for the overstressed medical system? Why don’t I get a discount for my responsible dietary and lifestyle choices?
Then there’s other factors that people might consider like the TGAs decision to ban proven safe and effective medications such as Ivermectin (a drug which the clinical evidence shows is not statistically effective) and Chloroquine from use to limit peoples options as corrupt and worth standing against.
So I hope you might understand there are many factors involved in peoples choices and that the notion that anyone choosing not to vaccinate is selfish and putting others (who have the option of providing themselves with the greatest protection by personally vaccinating) at risk is not inherently accurate.
If we were talking about something with the mortality rate of Ebola, or vaccines that are safe and actually break transmission, this would be a different conversation.
But we are not.

 

[JD Tiger]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

By my understanding, the vaccine is all about minimising the deadliness of the disease when you catch it, and maybe to minimise you spreading it as well.

It doesn't prevent you from catching it in the first place.

But people in here have been losing it about the unvaxed not doing there bit for society and because of us old people are dying because we are spreading it. The Newcastle incident proves that the vaxed are doing a good job spreading it too

I think the mindset is it's more when the unvaccinated people catch covid, they will likely get sicker, use more hospital beds, and put more of a strain on the system, resulting in less other people (vaccinated or not) being able to access those services (for covid or not) and therefore being at higher risk of possibly dying.

So by not vaccinating, those people at putting everyone else at a higher risk of sickness or death.

 

[JD Tiger]

This post isn't directed to anyone in particular, it is just a thought I had and thought it may be beneficial to share.

At the forefront in the to-vaccinate-or-not-to-vaccinate question for (at least some) people is social responsibility and personal freedom. There are other factors, including personal experience with previous vaccinations, distrust of the government and other forces encouraging the use of vaccinations, but I wanted to focus on social responsibility and personal freedom if I may.

I personally am very big on personal freedoms, choice, advocating for as little rules and regulations from presiding bodies over the masses as possible. On the other hand, living as part of a society, I understand that a lot of what we personally do is for the well-being of those around us (even though it's to our own personal detriment).

In my mind, when people have the position that they don't want to have the vaccination because it's being imposed on them, or that they choose not to for the sake of being able to choose, they are making that decision to the detriment of others - it's putting others at greater risk, which comes across as very selfish. And I think that is what contributes to the negative stigma anti-vaxxers are experiencing, the mindset of some of those people are valuing themselves and their own wants over everyone else.

There are plenty of worse things which are being imposed upon people's personal freedoms which I wish we would fight more against; the concept of defining a person through their role and attributing value to them as a person according to that role for one. But I won't go into that segway here.

I can only speak for myself JD, but I would argue that the erosion of freedoms is only part of an equation that people way up against things like the mortality rate of the virus, the demographic of those most at risk and the effectiveness of the vaccine to reduce transmission.
I think the proof is pretty clear that those most at risk are advanced age people and unhealthy people.
Now the thing those people can do is vaccinate to protect themselves. As some members of my family have done and as I would if I were in their shoes.
But theirs a clear misconception around the effectiveness of these vaccines to reduce transmission at the community level. People want to keep saying it’s nonsensical to say they’re not effective in that regard, but they are incorrect. These vaccines are not nearly effective enough at reducing transmission to have any real community effect. And that is a mathematical reality when you apply exponential growth to the equation. These strains are extremely transmissible and the vaccines are relatively ineffective in that regard.
So expecting the vast majority to be forced into taking on the responsibility to ‘save’ a vast minority is not scientifically or mathematically supported unfortunately. That is why highly vaccinated countries are still struggling with community spread.
Now people then want to then say it’s about supporting our medical system.
Well I’ll tell you this JD, I think it’s a crap argument.
Personally I’m fit and healthy because I make an effort take care of myself. I’ve paid for private health for over 20yrs and apart from the odd physio visit and a dental checkup every few years I get nothing out of it. However my premiums go up endlessly? I reckon that’s because of 2 things 1) profiting insurance companies, and 2) people who CHOOSE to be unhealthy.
The biggest drain on our health system is unhealthy people. Yet I don’t hear anyone suggesting that people should pay a ‘unhealthy lifestyle levy’?? Why don’t they have to take any responsibility for the overstressed medical system? Why don’t I get a discount for my responsible dietary and lifestyle choices?
Then there’s other factors that people might consider like the TGAs decision to ban proven safe and effective medications such as Ivermectin (a drug which the clinical evidence shows is not statistically effective) and Chloroquine from use to limit peoples options as corrupt and worth standing against.
So I hope you might understand there are many factors involved in peoples choices and that the notion that anyone choosing not to vaccinate is selfish and putting others (who have the option of providing themselves with the greatest protection by personally vaccinating) at risk is not inherently accurate.
If we were talking about something with the mortality rate of Ebola, or vaccines that are safe and actually break transmission, this would be a different conversation.
But we are not.

Mate, there was an idea on this forum earlier today (in this thread?, no it was the NZ smoking thing) about a possible sugar tax being put on unhealthy foods. And I've heard that before somewhere. They are thinking about it.

Yes you should get a discount for being healthy with insurance, totally. But insurance companies are money hungry leeches, don't look to them for moral direction.

Personally, the biggest problem I see with the whole world, is that we have structured it so that you have to look after yourself at the expense of everyone else. That's the bottom line. Anything that supports that, I personally don't like. And the covid vaccinations, are based in trying to ultimately help other people, so that's why for me it's a no-brainer. I've drive on the correct side of the road, I'll wait for the light to turn green, I'll wait my turn in the queue, and I'll try to help others whenever I have the drive (or am in an agreeable enough mood) to do so.

 

[CocaCola]

We can all move on without being policed from tomorrow.
What happens to those who choose not to get the jab is on them, no need to guilt tripe or police anyone else..
Vaxxers can continue with their yearly booster shoots & be done with it in a quiet manner .
If you believe the jab reduces your risk of illness or death, be thankful & stop the fear mongering.

 

[leichhardtjunior]

This post isn't directed to anyone in particular, it is just a thought I had and thought it may be beneficial to share.

At the forefront in the to-vaccinate-or-not-to-vaccinate question for (at least some) people is social responsibility and personal freedom. There are other factors, including personal experience with previous vaccinations, distrust of the government and other forces encouraging the use of vaccinations, but I wanted to focus on social responsibility and personal freedom if I may.

I personally am very big on personal freedoms, choice, advocating for as little rules and regulations from presiding bodies over the masses as possible. On the other hand, living as part of a society, I understand that a lot of what we personally do is for the well-being of those around us (even though it's to our own personal detriment).

In my mind, when people have the position that they don't want to have the vaccination because it's being imposed on them, or that they choose not to for the sake of being able to choose, they are making that decision to the detriment of others - it's putting others at greater risk, which comes across as very selfish. And I think that is what contributes to the negative stigma anti-vaxxers are experiencing, the mindset of some of those people are valuing themselves and their own wants over everyone else.

There are plenty of worse things which are being imposed upon people's personal freedoms which I wish we would fight more against; the concept of defining a person through their role and attributing value to them as a person according to that role for one. But I won't go into that segway here.

I can only speak for myself JD, but I would argue that the erosion of freedoms is only part of an equation that people way up against things like the mortality rate of the virus, the demographic of those most at risk and the effectiveness of the vaccine to reduce transmission.
I think the proof is pretty clear that those most at risk are advanced age people and unhealthy people.
Now the thing those people can do is vaccinate to protect themselves. As some members of my family have done and as I would if I were in their shoes.
But theirs a clear misconception around the effectiveness of these vaccines to reduce transmission at the community level. People want to keep saying it’s nonsensical to say they’re not effective in that regard, but they are incorrect. These vaccines are not nearly effective enough at reducing transmission to have any real community effect. And that is a mathematical reality when you apply exponential growth to the equation. These strains are extremely transmissible and the vaccines are relatively ineffective in that regard.
So expecting the vast majority to be forced into taking on the responsibility to ‘save’ a vast minority is not scientifically or mathematically supported unfortunately. That is why highly vaccinated countries are still struggling with community spread.
Now people then want to then say it’s about supporting our medical system.
Well I’ll tell you this JD, I think it’s a crap argument.
Personally I’m fit and healthy because I make an effort take care of myself. I’ve paid for private health for over 20yrs and apart from the odd physio visit and a dental checkup every few years I get nothing out of it. However my premiums go up endlessly? I reckon that’s because of 2 things 1) profiting insurance companies, and 2) people who CHOOSE to be unhealthy.
The biggest drain on our health system is unhealthy people. Yet I don’t hear anyone suggesting that people should pay a ‘unhealthy lifestyle levy’?? Why don’t they have to take any responsibility for the overstressed medical system? Why don’t I get a discount for my responsible dietary and lifestyle choices?
Then there’s other factors that people might consider like the TGAs decision to ban proven safe and effective medications such as Ivermectin (a drug which the clinical evidence shows is not statistically effective) and Chloroquine from use to limit peoples options as corrupt and worth standing against.
So I hope you might understand there are many factors involved in peoples choices and that the notion that anyone choosing not to vaccinate is selfish and putting others (who have the option of providing themselves with the greatest protection by personally vaccinating) at risk is not inherently accurate.
If we were talking about something with the mortality rate of Ebola, or vaccines that are safe and actually break transmission, this would be a different conversation.
But we are not.

Mate, there was an idea on this forum earlier today (in this thread?, no it was the NZ smoking thing) about a possible sugar tax being put on unhealthy foods. And I've heard that before somewhere. They are thinking about it.

Yes you should get a discount for being healthy with insurance, totally. But insurance companies are money hungry leeches, don't look to them for moral direction.

Personally, the biggest problem I see with the whole world, is that we have structured it so that you have to look after yourself at the expense of everyone else. That's the bottom line. Anything that supports that, I personally don't like. And the covid vaccinations, are based in trying to ultimately help other people, so that's why for me it's a no-brainer. I've drive on the correct side of the road, I'll wait for the light to turn green, I'll wait my turn in the queue, and I'll try to help others whenever I have the drive (or am in an agreeable enough mood) to do so.

I do all those things too as long as they don’t come at an unreasonable expense to myself, but this in my opinion for all the reasons I’ve just given you is out of balance.
I don’t advocate any of the taxes you mentioned either because I believe in freedom of choice, I was just making a point that unhealthy people and the consumerist society that we live in and that supplies them is clearly a far greater burden on the medical system, and in your words, putting people at a higher risk of illness and death than unvaccinated people are.
But it’s not socially accepted to shame the fatty’s is it.
Complete hypocrisy.

 

[leichhardtjunior]

We can all move on without being policed from tomorrow.
What happens to those who choose not to get the jab is on them, no need to guilt tripe or police anyone else..
Vaxxers can continue with their yearly booster shoots & be done with it in a quiet manner .
If you believe the jab reduces your risk of illness or death, be thankful & stop the fear mongering.

Absolutely 👍

 

[Eyeofthetiger 0]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

By my understanding, the vaccine is all about minimising the deadliness of the disease when you catch it, and maybe to minimise you spreading it as well.

It doesn't prevent you from catching it in the first place.

But people in here have been losing it about the unvaxed not doing there bit for society and because of us old people are dying because we are spreading it. The Newcastle incident proves that the vaxed are doing a good job spreading it too

I think the mindset is it's more when the unvaccinated people catch covid, they will likely get sicker, use more hospital beds, and put more of a strain on the system, resulting in less other people (vaccinated or not) being able to access those services (for covid or not) and therefore being at higher risk of possibly dying.

So by not vaccinating, those people at putting everyone else at a higher risk of sickness or death.

Mate you could say the same thing about smokers, alcoholics and unhealthy people. They don’t look after themselves, get diseases and use up hospital beds. I think that part of the vaccine argument is to stop the spread, well clearly in close quarters it is not effective

 

[JD Tiger]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

By my understanding, the vaccine is all about minimising the deadliness of the disease when you catch it, and maybe to minimise you spreading it as well.

It doesn't prevent you from catching it in the first place.

But people in here have been losing it about the unvaxed not doing there bit for society and because of us old people are dying because we are spreading it. The Newcastle incident proves that the vaxed are doing a good job spreading it too

I think the mindset is it's more when the unvaccinated people catch covid, they will likely get sicker, use more hospital beds, and put more of a strain on the system, resulting in less other people (vaccinated or not) being able to access those services (for covid or not) and therefore being at higher risk of possibly dying.

So by not vaccinating, those people at putting everyone else at a higher risk of sickness or death.

Mate you could say the same thing about smokers, alcoholics and unhealthy people. They don’t look after themselves, get diseases and use up hospital beds. I think that part of the vaccine argument is to stop the spread, well clearly in close quarters it is not effective

Im actually amazed there isnt more of a blame game being played with where this disease came from. Im not saying blame should be attributed, Im just amazed people are not focusing on it, is all.

 

[leichhardtjunior]

Sorry guys but please enlighten me, the Newcastle cluster are they all vaxed people? If they are, wasn’t the vaccine supposed to reduce transmission - it obviously hasn’t done its job well because it has spread like wildfire

I'd go so far to say it will definitely reduce transmission. That doesn't mean it will stop it.

You have to stop looking at COVID and the vaccine through this lens that the vaccine stops it completely and saves everyone's life. It doesn't do that.

So far it is been hugely beneficial though. We've done really well with Delta and it's basically because of our high vaccination rates. Without that high vaccination rates it would have been an unmitigated disaster.

As well as reducing transmission, vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the virus if it is contracted, and there is a pretty good chance that if it doesn't die out soon that we will all contract it at some stage.

Some of us may get it at some stage and not even know that we had it, which is most likely to occur in people who are fully vaccinated.

Yeah sure, case numbers are up but this is not being reflected in the number of hospital cases and especially in the all important ICU case numbers.

It makes sense that if this latest variant of the virus is extremely contagious and as we continue to open up more that the case numbers will rise.

It is also logical that many of those that contract the virus will be fully vaccinated simply due to sheer numbers involved because the fully vaccinated out number those that are not vaccinated by well over 9 to 1.

My opinion is case numbers are going to go ballistic. The question is will that lead to increased hospitalization and ICU numbers.

In South Africa the virus appears mild with most people in hospital with COVID as incidental cases - i.e. they are in hospital with something else.

I read today that the number of cases in ICU in NSW at the moment is at its lowest point since July. Vaccination is doing its job in reducing hospitalisation. If this stays the same then we don’t need more lockdowns. The big question is whether or not it will stay the same once omicron takes hold and unvaccinated people are free. It’s too early to tell.

With many people becoming eligible for 3rd dose and increased herd immunity when 5-12s start getting vaccinated from Jan 10 we should be in a good position from around Feb onwards. The concern is what happens between now and then. IMO ATAGI should consider allowing 3rd doses earlier than the current 5 month rule… I’m scheduled for a holiday in early Jan which I’ve already postponed twice. I’ll be annoyed if another lockdown stops the holiday from going ahead.

Tough times my friend. Your fellow vaxed collegues are spreading it at the moment.

How do you figure? If vaccinated people are spreading the disease because they're out and about, aren't the non-vaccinated people doing the same thing?

Look at Newcastle. It’s not the unvaxed

Cant stop the Fanny varient

I still don’t understand how the vaccine stops the spread. What happened in Newcastle proves it. The vaccine clearly didn’t have an effect on those present. However, it may help them recover quicker
and not go to hospital

It doesn’t. Reduces transmission slightly but not enough to have a definite community effect, exponential growth means the end result in terms of community spread looks no different amongst vaxxed and un vaxxed.
BASIC MATHS ?
It’s benefits are at the individual level.
If you don’t need it personally you aren’t going to help someone that does.
Lockdowns are how we reduced community spread to this point. Shit the un vaxxed are still at home now and look at the numbers climbing.
Must be rocket science ?
The way to achieve herd immunity is to let people live their lives and evaluate their their own requirements along the way.
If you’re bothered GET VAXXED and stop whining about other people.

 

[Merlot]

2 all the unvaxed,how would you cope if you past on the virus to your parents/and or partner,siblings or offspring,surely the conscious would be clearer if you did all in your powers and got faxed,stay safe ,merry xmas

 

[leichhardtjunior]

2 all the unvaxed,how would you cope if you past on the virus to your parents/and or partner,siblings or offspring,surely the conscious would be clearer if you did all in your powers and got faxed,stay safe ,merry xmas

I wouldn’t be crippled with guilt because they can actually give it to me? And each other?
The secret ingredient to their health is the fact that they are vaxxed. That is what protects them. Not me or each other. Why can’t you stop pretending otherwise and unjustly shaming people? It’s inaccurate and unfair.
To be frank it’s discriminatory. You really should consider that.
Merry Xmas to you also, I hope it’s a good one.

 

[Merlot]

2 all the unvaxed,how would you cope if you past on the virus to your parents/and or partner,siblings or offspring,surely the conscious would be clearer if you did all in your powers and got faxed,stay safe ,merry xmas

I wouldn’t be crippled with guilt because they can actually give it to me? And each other?
The secret ingredient to their health is the fact that they are vaxxed. That is what protects them. Not me or each other. Why can’t you stop pretending otherwise and unjustly shaming people? It’s inaccurate and unfair.
To be frank it’s discriminatory. You really should consider that.
Merry Xmas to you also, I hope it’s a good one.

and i was hoping 4 ,8 links that i would never look at

 

[JD Tiger]

2 all the unvaxed,how would you cope if you past on the virus to your parents/and or partner,siblings or offspring,surely the conscious would be clearer if you did all in your powers and got faxed,stay safe ,merry xmas

I wouldn’t be crippled with guilt because they can actually give it to me? And each other?
The secret ingredient to their health is the fact that they are vaxxed. That is what protects them. Not me or each other. Why can’t you stop pretending otherwise and unjustly shaming people? It’s inaccurate and unfair.
To be frank it’s discriminatory. You really should consider that.
Merry Xmas to you also, I hope it’s a good one.

It may not be intended, but that attitude comes across like you don't care if others get sick and die. You could be doing something to help the community at large, but you are choosing not to?

That sounds like the attitude that gives people who don't choose to vaccinate a bad reputation, and is why there is so much flak sent towards that group of people.

We'll all probably get covid eventually. You're choosing to (likely) get covid with no vaccination, with a higher chance of needing hospital services, taking up a space that another may need. And you don't care that they might miss out on that space?

That like saying up yours to everyone else. I'll do what's right for me, and fudge everyone else.

 

[Merlot]

2 all the unvaxed,how would you cope if you past on the virus to your parents/and or partner,siblings or offspring,surely the conscious would be clearer if you did all in your powers and got faxed,stay safe ,merry xmas

I wouldn’t be crippled with guilt because they can actually give it to me? And each other?
The secret ingredient to their health is the fact that they are vaxxed. That is what protects them. Not me or each other. Why can’t you stop pretending otherwise and unjustly shaming people? It’s inaccurate and unfair.
To be frank it’s discriminatory. You really should consider that.
Merry Xmas to you also, I hope it’s a good one.

and i was hoping 4 ,8 links that i would never look at

whats inacurrate?Junior