David Klemmer #264

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Tucker said:
@Jolls and @BAGNF05,
Im certainly not discounting the points you have both made as they are valid, however what I said is as well and some people (not you guys), are sweeping it under the rug.

There is a lot of revisionism on this forum and its not all helpful. The Wests Tigers Football Department staff in totality, deserve a massive toe up the arse for their work over the past couple of seasons. Those running the pathways and coaching the junior sides are not preparing the players properly. The way they introduce young guys to the top grade is not working. It seems Ad Hoc and without strategy...communication seems awful.
I will forever state that an 18 year old having a mortgage on the 6 jersey all season contributed to our spoon. Yes he had to play many games as there was no one else due to suspensions and injuries, however he was a huge part of the strategic plan BEFORE the season began based solely on his efforts during the pre season training rather than proven results on the field against men. Before they were aware that they had no other choice - he was the choice. I know this sounds like Im blaming him, which Im not..I actually think he was one of very few who cared and tried all year, but the use of him was poorly orchestrated.

Im happy to see that we have picked up some great and experienced talent for 25, Im just warning that for those who think our last 2 spoons were solely roster related, they werent. The 23 spoon was a bad result as we played good enough footy at times to win quite a few of those games that we lost. 24 was more of the same but not quite as bad. Our current roster, as incomplete as it is, should not have gone back to back.
I dont trust what is happening at Concorde nor in the COE. I hope both come under heavy scrutiny in the end of season reviews. They need a lot of work.
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Good insights, I fuly understand where you are coming from. There was definitely a bit of roster, a bit of coaching and a bit of poor culture that has got us to where we are. Benji drawing a line in the sand with the kids not achieving their agreed goals is a start.

I'm not convinced that the boys club in the coaching ranks is based on the best that was available - but they are what we have now. If they can't turn our trajectory around they will be without jobs. I guess what I have seen in patches, and what has been reported by some people with a bit of nouse, is that Benji is heading in the right direction. I trust that with the right leadership and a couple of good ball bounces we shake off our culture of hoping to win and become a team that has to be beaten!

The trinity as I see it is Roster, Leadership (Front Office, Football Department and Players) and Culture (Attitude). It is just like a three legged stool - lack any one of them and you fall over.
 
Jolls said:
Good insights, I fuly understand where you are coming from. There was definitely a bit of roster, a bit of coaching and a bit of poor culture that has got us to where we are. Benji drawing a line in the sand with the kids not achieving their agreed goals is a start.

I'm not convinced that the boys club in the coaching ranks is based on the best that was available - but they are what we have now. If they can't turn our trajectory around they will be without jobs. I guess what I have seen in patches, and what has been reported by some people with a bit of nouse, is that Benji is heading in the right direction. I trust that with the right leadership and a couple of good ball bounces we shake off our culture of hoping to win and become a team that has to be beaten!

The trinity as I see it is Roster, Leadership (Front Office, Football Department and Players) and Culture (Attitude). It is just like a three legged stool - lack any one of them and you fall over.
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Out of the trinity - and well noticed - which is the first from 1 2 3? For you.
 
AmericanHistoryX said:
Out of the trinity - and well noticed - which is the first from 1 2 3? For you.
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While they are all important for mine Leadership is the key. Leadership is what develops or maintains culture and attitude. Poor leadership = poor culture and performance is affected.

An average team with good leaderhsip and belief will beat a team of stars who don't have belief in the leadership. A good roster helps - but is not the be all and end all.

Let me introduce you to the Brisbane Broncos; a prime example of what happens when the leadership is poor. On the opposite end of the scale the the Penny Panthers; they have the balance right!
 
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Jolls said:
While they are all imporotant for mine Leadership is the key. Leadership is what develops or maintains culture and attitude. Poor leadership = poor culture and performance is affected.

An average team with good leaderhsip and belief will beat a team of stars who don't have belief in the leadership. A good roster helps - but is not the be all and end all.

Let me introduce you to the Brisbane Broncos; a prime example of what happens when the leadership is poor. On the opposite end of the sale the the Penny Panthers; they have the balance right!
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How would you rate our leadership?
 
AHX, I'm too distant from the playing group to know for sure. For what it's worth my observations are:
  • removing Lee and Justin has improved our off field leadership significantly. I am unsure of the relationship Richo has with the front office staff. I get the feel that while he can be prickly when he needs to. I expect that he is probably quite affable with the front office staff. There certainly appears to be a level of respect between Richo and the Football Department - so that is a good start.
  • Benji seems to be jovial and good natured; however, clearly he has his serious side. I get his mantra of family first and agree with the sentiment. That doesn't mean you are a slacker at work - but if the family unit isn't good then concentration when at work is not what it could be. I have heard that Benji is empathetic and gets to know players on a personal basis. That is a plus for his leadership; however, if it is true that he holds a grudge, that is detrimental to the culture he is trying to build.
  • Api - leads by example on the field. I have no idea about his influence off the field. He doesn't appear to be the guy that demands standards. The problem with this approach is that the standard he walks past is the standard he has accepted. This then permeates the team. If he has the C beside his name he needs to be demanding standards from others not just trying to lead by example. I believe that Api would benefit from some formal leadership training and mentorship if he is to retain the C beside his name.
My estimate is that we get a pass at the moment in the leadership stakes; improve our leadership and we improve our attitude!
 
BAGNF05 said:
How so? Seems he got Bateman, Noffa and Naden offside only.

Naden, meh.

Noffa - gone. Meh.

A hardline approach won’t please everyone.
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I'm OK with him getting those three offside and if what has been reported is correct Bateman and Noffa deserve to be moved on. If what is reported on Naden is correct and he was criticised for his brain snap and then refused to shake Benjis hand afterwards then sure drop him to Ressies for the stupidity and pull him aside one on one about his attitude to the coach. If Benji is holding a grudge (again only what is reported) this is detrimental to the team.

We all know that Naden can play, in between brain farts, and he wasn't stinking it up in Ressies. There were times that we could have used him. His experience may have had us winning another game and not getting the spoon.

Dropping him for his discipline was the right move; if he has been labelled never to play FG again over failing to shake Benji's hand this is a leadership fail. He needs to get over that, have the hard discussion with Naden, give him guidance on how to get himself back into FG and get on with making WT great again!

Again, it is only what has been reported - who knows what is actually going on behind the closed doors of the club.
 
Jolls said:
I'm OK with him getting those three offside and if what has been reported is correct Bateman and Noffa deserve to be moved on. If what is reported on Naden is correct and he was criticised for his brain snap and then refused to shake Benjis hand afterwards then sure drop him to Ressies for the stupidity and pull him aside one on one about his attitude to the coach. If Benji is holding a grudge (again only what is reported) this is detrimental to the team.

We all know that Naden can play, in between brain farts, and he wasn't stinking it up in Ressies. There were times that we could have used him. His experience may have had us winning another game and not getting the spoon.

Dropping him for his discipline was the right move; if he has been labelled never to play FG again over failing to shake Benji's hand this is a leadership fail. He needs to get over that, have the hard discussion with Naden, give him guidance on how to get himself back into FG and get on with making WT great again!

Again, it is only what has been reported - who knows what is actually going on behind the closed doors of the club.
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Mate there was a three week stretch where Naden was making errors not acceptable in Z grade. I would have marked his cards too. He single handedly cost us a game against Newcastle. Was horrific on both sides of the ball.

Bellamy would of packed his bags.

That sin binning on half time came in a game where Benji had given him one last chance, I’m certain of that.

If his play beforehand had been up to scratch, he’d have more rope with everybody but he’s just an inconsistent player and from externally he doesn’t appear to give a shit.
 
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Jolls said:
I'm OK with him getting those three offside and if what has been reported is correct Bateman and Noffa deserve to be moved on. If what is reported on Naden is correct and he was criticised for his brain snap and then refused to shake Benjis hand afterwards then sure drop him to Ressies for the stupidity and pull him aside one on one about his attitude to the coach. If Benji is holding a grudge (again only what is reported) this is detrimental to the team.

We all know that Naden can play, in between brain farts, and he wasn't stinking it up in Ressies. There were times that we could have used him. His experience may have had us winning another game and not getting the spoon.

Dropping him for his discipline was the right move; if he has been labelled never to play FG again over failing to shake Benji's hand this is a leadership fail. He needs to get over that, have the hard discussion with Naden, give him guidance on how to get himself back into FG and get on with making WT great again!

Again, it is only what has been reported - who knows what is actually going on behind the closed doors of the club.
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The issue with Naden is an odd one …he has had good games in the NSW Cup …but soon as he gets picked in the NRL team he alternates between brain explosions and just terrible play …also seems to display a lack of effort at times

I thought this was the case even prior to last year displays against Newcastle and Souths where this was underscored ..

you say that he could have helped them win a game and avoid the spoon… but by the same token, his ill discipline cost them games last year

I think the fact that they can’t “give him away “ speaks volumes …
 
BAGNF05 said:
Mate there was a three week stretch where Naden was making errors not acceptable in Z grade. I would have marked his cards too. He single handedly cost us a game against Newcastle. Was horrific on both sides of the ball.

Bellamy would of packed his bags.

That sin binning on half time came in a game where Benji had given him one last chance, I’m certain of that.

If his play beforehand had been up to scratch, he’d have more rope with everybody but he’s just an inconsistent player and from externally he doesn’t appear to give a shit.
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He lost me permanently when he did a dog shot on another player helpless on the ground,i have no problem playing the game tough but that was the act of a thug.Uptil then i quite liked him as a player
 
Jolls said:
AHX, I'm too distant from the playing group to know for sure. For what it's worth my observations are:
  • removing Lee and Justin has improved our off field leadership significantly. I am unsure of the relationship Richo has with the front office staff. I get the feel that while he can be prickly when he needs to. I expect that he is probably quite affable with the front office staff. There certainly appears to be a level of respect between Richo and the Football Department - so that is a good start.
  • Benji seems to be jovial and good natured; however, clearly he has his serious side. I get his mantra of family first and agree with the sentiment. That doesn't mean you are a slacker at work - but if the family unit isn't good then concentration when at work is not what it could be. I have heard that Benji is empathetic and gets to know players on a personal basis. That is a plus for his leadership; however, if it is true that he holds a grudge, that is detrimental to the culture he is trying to build.
  • Api - leads by example on the field. I have no idea about his influence off the field. He doesn't appear to be the guy that demands standards. The problem with this approach is that the standard he walks past is the standard he has accepted. This then permeates the team. If he has the C beside his name he needs to be demanding standards from others not just trying to lead by example. I believe that Api would benefit from some formal leadership training and mentorship if he is to retain the C beside his name.
My estimate is that we get a pass at the moment in the leadership stakes; improve our leadership and we improve our attitude!
Click to expand...
After reading your last 3 insights of what we hope happens next; I am impressed.
Looking forward to your future observations.
 
Tom Shines said:
The issue with Naden is an odd one …he has had good games in the NSW Cup …but soon as he gets picked in the NRL team he alternates between brain explosions and just terrible play …also seems to display a lack of effort at times

I thought this was the case even prior to last year displays against Newcastle and Souths where this was underscored ..

you say that he could have helped them win a game and avoid the spoon… but by the same token, his ill discipline cost them games last year

I think the fact that they can’t “give him away “ speaks volumes …
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He seems to me to be a guy overwhelmed by the occasion.
When in KOE Cup he looks relaxed, poised even and a real handful.
When in NRL he tries too hard…instead of securing the tackle with his shoulder and clinch, it’s an aggressive swinging arm. Instead of drawing and setting up another player, he aggressively tries to barge through the line. Instead of securing a high ball, he’ll often elect to wait and belt the opposition contester. He goes beast mode and makes errors galore and wears himself out. It’s a psychological thing. I wonder if we have gone down that path to help or if he has just been labelled too hard and blackballed?
The guy can play when in the right mind frame…
 
The good player that Naden is rarely sighted in First grade and inconsistent basis is shown in Reserve Grade this should be his last season with Us. Leave him in Reserve Grade this season end of.
 
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