Hookers. (9)

TIGERS

TIGERS

Well-known member
I'm curious.

Is it really worth having a 'marquee hooker' anymore? - We've had the best hooker in NSW more often than not in the last 20 years and what difference has it made for us? Not so much the position but the way the role is played?

I can remember there being a lot of conjecture over Robbie Farah's style of play when Brooks and Moses were coming through. Like that all that trickery out of dummy half had it's time, and you're better off just getting the ball into the halves asap. I feel like it might be an out of date style of play like playing with a sweeper or a 10 in Football. What team has really changed their fortunes around by buying a hooker lately? Look at the roosters go without Brandon Smith.

I don't want to turn this into an Api vs TDS story. It's more about the modern style of play. What do people think?
 
TIGERS said:
I'm curious.

Is it really worth having a 'marquee hooker' anymore? - We've had the best hooker in NSW more often than not in the last 20 years and what difference has it made for us? Not so much the position but the way the role is played?

I can remember there being a lot of conjecture over Robbie Farah's style of play when Brooks and Moses were coming through. Like that all that trickery out of dummy half had it's time, and you're better off just getting the ball into the halves asap. I feel like it might be an out of date style of play like playing with a sweeper or a 10 in Football. What team has really changed their fortunes around by buying a hooker lately? Look at the roosters go without Brandon Smith.

I don't want to turn this into an Api vs TDS story. It's more about the modern style of play. What do people think?
Click to expand...
It’s the old Taylor Farah v Halatal debate actually was working out really well until he did his Bicep. Remember in 2019 when Marshall went to Hooker vs the Dragons at the end of the year without Farah for the game?
I think you’re on to something in a way, Grant isn’t a great hooker due to his skill around the ruck but moreso his service and speed of play, noticing when to take advantage of a tired defender.
Brailey another great one at that as well.
Remember when Korisou was at Manly. Manly used to do too much around the ruck that they were losing out on the momentum of having AFB and Tapau run onto the ball.
When he went to Penrith I feel Ivan simplified his game as such to be more about delivery and defence.
Do he hold the ball too long around the ruck and it’s affecting us? I wonder.
 
Rather have a hooker like Farah & Koroisau,
over a hooker like Chad Randall or Peter Mamazoules.

Api is one of my favourite players and he's important to our team, a lot revolves around him.

Our issues are elsewhere on the field & they have somewhat improved, more work is needed.
 
Doueihi gets the credit but without Api the first try doesn't happen. Look and shape right, switch left and go out the back. Just a small piece of deception which impacts the entire defensive line. Sometimes I watch us and think he should be more involved, even though he is already taking charge of a majority of our sets.
 
Returning to this topic. We pay API Korisau 30K Per game, and Tristan Hope 5k at best.

VS Roosters, Hope worked his guts off, but largely drilled the ball, (well), out to the halves. He put in a really competent professional effort. I felt like our halves got more of the ball and we were able to play a less complex, but easier to implement style of play, against a very legit team with serious firepower and experience.

Tallyn couldn't have done what Hope did over 80 minutes, that's just experience. Maybe we pay Api for his leadership, and turning other seniors players into leaders.... but I really couldn't see too much of a difference being made.

When some of these players come back in the side they're gonna have to shut everyone up and start icing some games for us.
 
TIGERS said:
Returning to this topic. We pay API Korisau 30K Per game, and Tristan Hope 5k at best.

VS Roosters, Hope worked his guts off, but largely drilled the ball, (well), out to the halves. He put in a really competent professional effort. I felt like our halves got more of the ball and we were able to play a less complex, but easier to implement style of play, against a very legit team with serious firepower and experience.

Tallyn couldn't have done what Hope did over 80 minutes, that's just experience. Maybe we pay Api for his leadership, and turning other seniors players into leaders.... but I really couldn't see too much of a difference being made.

When some of these players come back in the side they're gonna have to shut everyone up and start icing some games for us.
Click to expand...
The forwards outplayed a young Roosters pack. Getting on the front foot made our spine look good. The challenge now is for our forwards to aim up week to week.
 
To answer the question first we need to look at what a marquee hooker offers over your run of the mill ball distributor. Funny that this came up again just after I completed the deep dive on what the spine offers and I think that is where the answer to your question lies. You can find the full analysis here.

There is a recurring theme among premiership-winning teams over the past two decades, it’s the strength and stability of their spine. While teams need powerful forward packs and dynamic outside backs, it is the spine that controls how effectively those assets are used.
The spine sets the attacking shape, controls defensive organisation, and determines how the team transitions between sets. Without a cohesive spine, even dominant forwards find themselves out of position, and outside backs lack opportunities to finish. With that in mind, in relation to the hooker:
  • If the halves lack organisational skills a top-tier hooker becomes a facilitator to nothing. (This has been a key weakness of Wests Tigers over the last two decades).
  • Their impact is diminished if the forward pack loses the middle battle.
  • Hookers rarely win you games alone; they amplify a strong pack and quality halves.
Advantages of a marquee hooker:
  • Engages the markers and A/B defender to create time and space
  • Elite dummy half service – crisp, fast, accurate passes
  • Vision around the ruck – identifying lazy defenders
  • Control of ruck tempo – crucial under modern six-again rules
  • Strong defensive workload and organisation.

So is a marquee hooker worth it?​

Yes – if:
  • The team has a strong pack to create ruck momentum.
  • The halves can direct play, allowing the hooker to exploit tiring markers.
  • The pack can provide defensive stability.
No – if the team lacks quality halves or a strong middle rotation. In this case, a cheaper serviceable hooker is warranted and investment in playmakers and props is smarter cap allocation. Was Api the right choice at the time he was contracted? Probably not from a pure playing perspective. At the time you could see how much further ahead of the curve Api was in relation to the pack and the halves meant we wasted his talent; however, he was the start of the change.

Final Assessment:​

A marquee hooker is a luxury player, not a foundational player. (and that is very hard to say as a former hooker). An eleite hooker amplifys what is built but they do not build it themselves.

For Wests Tigers:
  • Having Api has brought structure, but without a controlling halfback, dominant pack, and backline strike, his value has been capped.
  • The priority "fix" for us to become a Top 4 team is:
    1. Investment in dominant forwards (what we have does not hit the mark)
    2. development of/investment in a controlling half (Luai is controlling the game to the detriment of his eyes up footy - this is a work in progress)
    3. Strike fullback (Bula is developing)
    4. Serviceable hooker, marquee if cap allows. We have a marquee hooker, we have a servicable backup (Hope) and potential in development (Haywood). This is the right balance.
Summary Answer

So to answer the question. No, a marquee hooker alone does not justify the investment unless the rest of the spine and forward pack are strong. Modern NRL success is driven by dominant middles and halves who can control the game. Hookers facilitate, they rarely carry.

Our investment was arse about - but the cultural shift faciltated by contracting Api was possibly the circuit breaker needed by the club to start recruiting the right talent. We have a developing spine and with some additional starch in the pack we are on the way to becoming a top 4 club. If we fail to invest in the building blocks - we can have the best spine in the world directing nothing!
 
Last edited:
TIGERS said:
Returning to this topic. We pay API Korisau 30K Per game, and Tristan Hope 5k at best.

VS Roosters, Hope worked his guts off, but largely drilled the ball, (well), out to the halves. He put in a really competent professional effort. I felt like our halves got more of the ball and we were able to play a less complex, but easier to implement style of play, against a very legit team with serious firepower and experience.

Tallyn couldn't have done what Hope did over 80 minutes, that's just experience. Maybe we pay Api for his leadership, and turning other seniors players into leaders.... but I really couldn't see too much of a difference being made.

When some of these players come back in the side they're gonna have to shut everyone up and start icing some games for us.
Click to expand...
We're also paying Koroisau for his leadership on and off the field.
 
Jolls said:
To answer the question first we need to look at what a marquee hooker offers over your run of the mill ball distributor. Funny that this came up again just after I completed the deep dive on what the spine offers and I think that is where the answer to your question lies. You can find the full analysis here.

There is a recurring theme among premiership-winning teams over the past two decades, it’s the strength and stability of their spine. While teams need powerful forward packs and dynamic outside backs, it is the spine that controls how effectively those assets are used.
The spine sets the attacking shape, controls defensive organisation, and determines how the team transitions between sets. Without a cohesive spine, even dominant forwards find themselves out of position, and outside backs lack opportunities to finish. With that in mind, in relation to the hooker:
  • If the halves lack organisational skills a top-tier hooker becomes a facilitator to nothing. (This has been a key weakness of Wests Tigers over the last two decades).
  • Their impact is diminished if the forward pack loses the middle battle.
  • Hookers rarely win you games alone; they amplify a strong pack and quality halves.
Advantages of a marquee hooker:
  • Engages the markers and A/B defender to create time and space
  • Elite dummy half service – crisp, fast, accurate passes
  • Vision around the ruck – identifying lazy defenders
  • Control of ruck tempo – crucial under modern six-again rules
  • Strong defensive workload and organisation.

So is a marquee hooker worth it?​

Yes – if:
  • The team has a strong pack to create ruck momentum.
  • The halves can direct play, allowing the hooker to exploit tiring markers.
  • The pack can provide defensive stability.
No – if the team lacks quality halves or a strong middle rotation. In this case, a cheaper serviceable hooker is warranted and investment in playmakers and props is smarter cap allocation. Was Api the right choice at the time he was contracted? Probably not from a pure playing perspective. At the time you could see how much further ahead of the curve Api was in relation to the pack and the halves meant we wasted his talent; however, he was the start of the change.

Final Assessment:​

A marquee hooker is a luxury player, not a foundational player. (and that is very hard to say as a former hooker). An eleite hooker amplifys what is built but they do not build it themselves.

For Wests Tigers:
  • Having Api has brought structure, but without a controlling halfback, dominant pack, and backline strike, his value has been capped.
  • The priority "fix" for us to become a Top 4 team is:
    1. Investment in dominant forwards (what we have does not hit the mark)
    2. development of/investment in a controlling half (Luai is controlling the game to the detriment of his eyes up footy - this is a work in progress
    3. Strike fullback (Bula id developing)
    4. Serviceable hooker, marquee if cap allows. We have a marquee hooker, we have a servicable backup (Hope) and potential in development (Haywood). This is the right balance.
Summary Answer

So to answer the question. No, a marquee hooker alone does not justify the investment unless the rest of the spine and forward pack are strong. Modern NRL success is driven by dominant middles and halves who can control the game. Hookers facilitate, they rarely carry.

Our investment was arse about - but the cultural shift faciltated by contracting Api was possible the circuit breaker needed by the club to start recruiting the right talent. We have a developing spine and with some additional starch in the pack we are on the way to becoming a top 4 club. If we fail to invest in the building blocks - we can have the best spine in the world directing nothing!
Click to expand...
Is this AI
 
Are we blaming the hooker bcoz we can’t get it up?

Terrible Puns aside, it’s a team game one marquee player in a side of reggies can only do so much.
I’m in for as many “marquee” players as we can cheatingly fit into the cap without getting caught.
T4L 😎

And by the way, have a Good Day!!!
 
BAGNF05 said:
The forwards outplayed a young Roosters pack. Getting on the front foot made our spine look good. The challenge now is for our forwards to aim up week to week.
Click to expand...
Spot on and that’s why we need another prop with a hard running game but has 50 minutes in him , plus another hard running lock , KPP fixes the edge and Sam F is good on the other edge , May Jnr and Makainsini to centres , but 3 solid Reseve graders to be added , then flush out
Naden , Feledy , Matta , and a couple more
 
jrtiger said:
the 9 at the end of the thread name has meant my original post for this thread has had to be scrapped...
Click to expand...
Both hookers have a lot in common. They spend a lot of time on their knees, gettign smashed from every angle and make a living by servicing big sweaty blokes for eighty minutes straight.
They are both judged on how quick they can get the ball out and at the he end of the night, neither leaves with much dignity.
Both are in it for cash and both end up with sore necks in the morning.
I'm sure whatever your post was going to be it woudl work with or without the 9!
 
TIGERS said:
Returning to this topic. We pay API Korisau 30K Per game, and Tristan Hope 5k at best.

VS Roosters, Hope worked his guts off, but largely drilled the ball, (well), out to the halves. He put in a really competent professional effort. I felt like our halves got more of the ball and we were able to play a less complex, but easier to implement style of play, against a very legit team with serious firepower and experience.

Tallyn couldn't have done what Hope did over 80 minutes, that's just experience. Maybe we pay Api for his leadership, and turning other seniors players into leaders.... but I really couldn't see too much of a difference being made.

When some of these players come back in the side they're gonna have to shut everyone up and start icing some games for us.
Click to expand...
Different players will work against different teams.

I don't know how Api would go vs Roosters. Hope did absolutely wonderful, the way he played his guts out I reckon Hope > Tallyn. (ok maybe for that game only).

It's that difference between the Hookers:

Farah would just barge and tackle through. He had the skill to pull off plays.

Ennis would sneak past and time his gaps.

Cameron Smith would manage the game. Knowing when to slow down the opposition and when to do speedy plays. His game management is first class.

Jake Friend like Farah would barge through. He could actually play lock and have the physicality for it.

Likewise Cook who can just run through and run around people.

Then you have Hookers that just get the ball out to the halfback. Do this all the time you become predictable, but if you can read when to pass and when to run it... Gold.


Api, Api is brillant because he has the sneek to get past Latrell Mitchell and can read the plays. Somehow he also has the physicality for 80 minutes of Hooker. However I don't think he could play lock. Ideally if Api could swap in at lock on occasion and give say Hope a stint at hooker it would be brillant.
 
Jolls said:
To answer the question first we need to look at what a marquee hooker offers over your run of the mill ball distributor. Funny that this came up again just after I completed the deep dive on what the spine offers and I think that is where the answer to your question lies. You can find the full analysis here.

There is a recurring theme among premiership-winning teams over the past two decades, it’s the strength and stability of their spine. While teams need powerful forward packs and dynamic outside backs, it is the spine that controls how effectively those assets are used.
The spine sets the attacking shape, controls defensive organisation, and determines how the team transitions between sets. Without a cohesive spine, even dominant forwards find themselves out of position, and outside backs lack opportunities to finish. With that in mind, in relation to the hooker:
  • If the halves lack organisational skills a top-tier hooker becomes a facilitator to nothing. (This has been a key weakness of Wests Tigers over the last two decades).
  • Their impact is diminished if the forward pack loses the middle battle.
  • Hookers rarely win you games alone; they amplify a strong pack and quality halves.
Advantages of a marquee hooker:
  • Engages the markers and A/B defender to create time and space
  • Elite dummy half service – crisp, fast, accurate passes
  • Vision around the ruck – identifying lazy defenders
  • Control of ruck tempo – crucial under modern six-again rules
  • Strong defensive workload and organisation.

So is a marquee hooker worth it?​

Yes – if:
  • The team has a strong pack to create ruck momentum.
  • The halves can direct play, allowing the hooker to exploit tiring markers.
  • The pack can provide defensive stability.
No – if the team lacks quality halves or a strong middle rotation. In this case, a cheaper serviceable hooker is warranted and investment in playmakers and props is smarter cap allocation. Was Api the right choice at the time he was contracted? Probably not from a pure playing perspective. At the time you could see how much further ahead of the curve Api was in relation to the pack and the halves meant we wasted his talent; however, he was the start of the change.

Final Assessment:​

A marquee hooker is a luxury player, not a foundational player. (and that is very hard to say as a former hooker). An eleite hooker amplifys what is built but they do not build it themselves.

For Wests Tigers:
  • Having Api has brought structure, but without a controlling halfback, dominant pack, and backline strike, his value has been capped.
  • The priority "fix" for us to become a Top 4 team is:
    1. Investment in dominant forwards (what we have does not hit the mark)
    2. development of/investment in a controlling half (Luai is controlling the game to the detriment of his eyes up footy - this is a work in progress
    3. Strike fullback (Bula id developing)
    4. Serviceable hooker, marquee if cap allows. We have a marquee hooker, we have a servicable backup (Hope) and potential in development (Haywood). This is the right balance.
Summary Answer

So to answer the question. No, a marquee hooker alone does not justify the investment unless the rest of the spine and forward pack are strong. Modern NRL success is driven by dominant middles and halves who can control the game. Hookers facilitate, they rarely carry.

Our investment was arse about - but the cultural shift faciltated by contracting Api was possible the circuit breaker needed by the club to start recruiting the right talent. We have a developing spine and with some additional starch in the pack we are on the way to becoming a top 4 club. If we fail to invest in the building blocks - we can have the best spine in the world directing nothing!
Click to expand...
Are we ChatGPT'ing on a footy forum?

But yes, Recruiting Api has been a club investment in culture.
No I did not agree with api's orginal Covid 19 objection, but when your a professional Athlete watching everything against doping allegations. I understood and empathised with his objection form that point of view.

The other thing, we rewind the clock... we "theoretically" had a great pack, Bateman/Stef/Papalii/etc.
Pairing a pack like that with a hooker like Api would then make some sense. The problem being it was a SLOW pack and that strategy won't work in 2024/2023.

Api is 100% worth it, regardless of what ChatGPT says.
We have needed top shelf talent to lift this side and that's what Api/Luai brings. Turuva IMHO is the unsung hero here too because when he joined, suddenly our edge defense really sharpened up A lot.
 
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