Its a player problem

[Merlot]

Madggie flavour 501 is something really special

 

[GCfan]

If we have reached a point where there is alot of finger pointing within the ranks, we are in trouble.

I understand what you mean but I also get the shits seeing players keep making stupid errors and team mates going over to give them a cuddle. Teams with a winning culture and set standards can afford to do that but for us I think we need to strip things back and drive some standards about what is accepted and what isn’t. We don’t need to pull apart but there should be enough buy in from players to understand when you stuff up repeatedly it’s not acceptable.

Defensive effort is not as clear cut as ball handling. You can deny a lack of defensive effort whereas u can’t deny a handling error. I feel the finger pointing would be more around defense.


Keeping possession is part of your defence. Not giving away easy balls, dropping passes, stepping into touch, sloppy play the balls. It's all part of the same problem. It's on the players.

Yeah I see both points of view and agree they are linked. Still irritates me seeing the pats on the head etc when someone cocks up.

 

[dazza65]

Lots of posts above are saying it’s a culture problem.

Culture, or more importantly, applying the cultural values in daily work activities is every employee’s (coach, player and staff) responsibility and I would say that is shockingly absent.

however without doubt the cultural health of an organisation is the responsibility of the organisation’s leadership. The board, which sits at the apex of the organisational hierarchy with ultimate authority and accountability for the organisation, is part of the organisation’s leadership along with executive management, and therefore must have the ultimate role in forming and monitoring the culture.

Not happening here.

It's not changing either.

Not till there’s a complete board revamp unfortunately

Serious question Dazza, what effect on our players will changing the board have in your opinion? I read that comment from time to time on here and to be honest I don’t understand what people mean when they say it.

Unfortunately, In the short term not much effect at all ?

Unfortunately cultural change takes some time. But it has to be lead by the Board. This has been seriously missing for a long time, if we even had it in the first place, I’m sure the initial and ongoing boards mostly have been leagues clubs cronies and hangers on who want the prestige and board room lunches etc.

It’s like weight loss. So much easier and enjoyable to put on weight (and quicker) than it is to lose weight. That’s hard work and usually takes longer.

It’s all about creating an environment for all employees to excel. we talk about the players not caring and them being here for the pay check- that’s indicative of a poor work environment. Good employees won’t go or stay at a poor workplace - poor or non committed ones do, because it’s easy.

In general, some of the main tenets in changing a culture are:

Clearly Define the expected culture.
Clear, succinct and constant communication with all employees around their team and individual expectations
Leadership Example - from the top dog.
Relentless Follow-up and correction (kind of like a no dickheads policy)
Most importantly, create conditions that align with the desired culture AND Accountability

All of these take time and require a Board with the required knowledge, experience and ability to undertake this; in my opinion, this board falls seriously short in all of these areas.

That all makes sense if we were a normal commercial organisation. But it looks like there’s a real difficulty in applying accountability at board level in a sporting organisation which appears to operate in two distinct halves. My understanding is that the board generally manages the commercial side of the organisation and whilst they would have oversight and probably ultimate approval in football operations appointments like Pascoe, Hartigan and Madge, I would have thought they’d have little say in day to day standards within the playing group. With a contract HR structure, unless theres performance clauses built into contracts it really hard to hold people to account through getting rid of players. The second option of demoting players for poor performance works if the club has adequate depth which probably doesn’t have right now either. I think that a high performance culture needs to be created by the Football department driven by Hartigan and Madge (and maybe Sheens). The challenge is holding each other to account. How do we do it when there’s few levers to pull.
Maybe Fox should have done a docco on the Storm ……

What you say is generally true but the board has input by appointments to the operational side of the business (ie football department) - the Board is ultimately responsible for it all.
Yes it is a unique “organisation” being a sporting organisation but the same rules apply as far as I’m concerned and there are numerous examples of great boards and governance in all types of sporting organisations both here and around the world.

Look at the All Blacks for example, numerous stories about culture and attitudes of all concerned. Is the organisation that good because it dominates all before it on the field which leads to a great culture or is it because it was setup and is managed to a lofty standard and it’s unbreakable expectations of success for both on and off field performance is why they are successful?

 

[mike]

If we have reached a point where there is alot of finger pointing within the ranks, we are in trouble.

I understand what you mean but I also get the shits seeing players keep making stupid errors and team mates going over to give them a cuddle. Teams with a winning culture and set standards can afford to do that but for us I think we need to strip things back and drive some standards about what is accepted and what isn’t. We don’t need to pull apart but there should be enough buy in from players to understand when you stuff up repeatedly it’s not acceptable.

Defensive effort is not as clear cut as ball handling. You can deny a lack of defensive effort whereas u can’t deny a handling error. I feel the finger pointing would be more around defense.


Keeping possession is part of your defence. Not giving away easy balls, dropping passes, stepping into touch, sloppy play the balls. It's all part of the same problem. It's on the players.

Yeah I see both points of view and agree they are linked. Still irritates me seeing the pats on the head etc when someone cocks up.

Happens in all sports these days. It’s one of the things my family laughs at. Good drop ball there, great miss, fantastic stuff up - well done.

 

[dazza65]

player prob's only stem from lack of management

Management can’t go to luciano’s house and make sure he’s on the treadmill and not smashing KFC

True.

But an organisation with a culture of accountability would mean management wouldn’t have to.

 

[GCfan]

Lots of posts above are saying it’s a culture problem.

Culture, or more importantly, applying the cultural values in daily work activities is every employee’s (coach, player and staff) responsibility and I would say that is shockingly absent.

however without doubt the cultural health of an organisation is the responsibility of the organisation’s leadership. The board, which sits at the apex of the organisational hierarchy with ultimate authority and accountability for the organisation, is part of the organisation’s leadership along with executive management, and therefore must have the ultimate role in forming and monitoring the culture.

Not happening here.

It's not changing either.

Not till there’s a complete board revamp unfortunately

Serious question Dazza, what effect on our players will changing the board have in your opinion? I read that comment from time to time on here and to be honest I don’t understand what people mean when they say it.

Unfortunately, In the short term not much effect at all ?

Unfortunately cultural change takes some time. But it has to be lead by the Board. This has been seriously missing for a long time, if we even had it in the first place, I’m sure the initial and ongoing boards mostly have been leagues clubs cronies and hangers on who want the prestige and board room lunches etc.

It’s like weight loss. So much easier and enjoyable to put on weight (and quicker) than it is to lose weight. That’s hard work and usually takes longer.

It’s all about creating an environment for all employees to excel. we talk about the players not caring and them being here for the pay check- that’s indicative of a poor work environment. Good employees won’t go or stay at a poor workplace - poor or non committed ones do, because it’s easy.

In general, some of the main tenets in changing a culture are:

Clearly Define the expected culture.
Clear, succinct and constant communication with all employees around their team and individual expectations
Leadership Example - from the top dog.
Relentless Follow-up and correction (kind of like a no dickheads policy)
Most importantly, create conditions that align with the desired culture AND Accountability

All of these take time and require a Board with the required knowledge, experience and ability to undertake this; in my opinion, this board falls seriously short in all of these areas.

That all makes sense if we were a normal commercial organisation. But it looks like there’s a real difficulty in applying accountability at board level in a sporting organisation which appears to operate in two distinct halves. My understanding is that the board generally manages the commercial side of the organisation and whilst they would have oversight and probably ultimate approval in football operations appointments like Pascoe, Hartigan and Madge, I would have thought they’d have little say in day to day standards within the playing group. With a contract HR structure, unless theres performance clauses built into contracts it really hard to hold people to account through getting rid of players. The second option of demoting players for poor performance works if the club has adequate depth which probably doesn’t have right now either. I think that a high performance culture needs to be created by the Football department driven by Hartigan and Madge (and maybe Sheens). The challenge is holding each other to account. How do we do it when there’s few levers to pull.
Maybe Fox should have done a docco on the Storm ……

What you say is generally true but the board has input by appointments to the operational side of the business (ie football department) - the Board is ultimately responsible for it all.
Yes it is a unique “organisation” being a sporting organisation but the same rules apply as far as I’m concerned and there are numerous examples of great boards and governance in all types of sporting organisations both here and around the world.

Look at the All Blacks for example, numerous stories about culture and attitudes of all concerned. Is the organisation that good because it dominates all before it on the field which leads to a great culture or is it because it was setup and is managed to a lofty standard and it’s unbreakable expectations of success for both on and off field performance is why they are successful?

I can see what you mean in what your saying. And I don’t want to come across as argumentative, I guess it’s hard to really understand without actual examples of boards demonstrating through actions. Everything you hear about the successful clubs having a good culture from the top down is all very high level comments without much substance . What I do understand about culture is it requires buy in from everyone and currently our guys don’t seem to be displaying that but in. Madge always talks about working hard for your team mates particularly when things are going against you. That sounds like a good culture to have to me yet we can’t embed it. I also know that leaders embed culture through their own actions and if you believe what you hear, Madge rips in during pre season with the boys. Pretty good example I reckon and someone I’d want to follow. So why aren’t the boys buying in? is it simply we haven’t recruited players with the right attitude? The whole thing stinks of the clubs solution is punt the coach and start again. If that’s the case I’m hopeful that 2036 is gonna be our year.

 

[BZN]

As fans we don't really know what is going on within the club and why we are what we are. The "soft underbelly" tag seems to fit, and just when we think we are on the right path we come to the extremely disappointing realisation that we are nowhere near it and the light at the end of the tunnel isn't getting brighter.

So what does this mean for recruitment and retention? Why would any quality player want to come to the WTs? Apart from being offered way more $$ than they could get elsewhere, which begs the question, is a player who is only interested in the most money really the type you want?
Then another question is, why would any star junior player stay at the WTs if he is offered a chance to go to a winning club with a quality roster. The sad fact from the past is that good players don't come to us and become stars, the good ones leave us and become stars elsewhere.

Maybe this is why we have enlisted Sheens - maybe we realise the only way we will find success is to build it from the youngsters up. Bring them on together through the grades (just like the Panthers), hang on to as many as we can, hopefully while they win together in the lower grades they will want to stay together.

Great post :+1:
One of the most sensible I have read.

 

[dazza65]

Lots of posts above are saying it’s a culture problem.

Culture, or more importantly, applying the cultural values in daily work activities is every employee’s (coach, player and staff) responsibility and I would say that is shockingly absent.

however without doubt the cultural health of an organisation is the responsibility of the organisation’s leadership. The board, which sits at the apex of the organisational hierarchy with ultimate authority and accountability for the organisation, is part of the organisation’s leadership along with executive management, and therefore must have the ultimate role in forming and monitoring the culture.

Not happening here.

It's not changing either.

Not till there’s a complete board revamp unfortunately

Serious question Dazza, what effect on our players will changing the board have in your opinion? I read that comment from time to time on here and to be honest I don’t understand what people mean when they say it.

Unfortunately, In the short term not much effect at all ?

Unfortunately cultural change takes some time. But it has to be lead by the Board. This has been seriously missing for a long time, if we even had it in the first place, I’m sure the initial and ongoing boards mostly have been leagues clubs cronies and hangers on who want the prestige and board room lunches etc.

It’s like weight loss. So much easier and enjoyable to put on weight (and quicker) than it is to lose weight. That’s hard work and usually takes longer.

It’s all about creating an environment for all employees to excel. we talk about the players not caring and them being here for the pay check- that’s indicative of a poor work environment. Good employees won’t go or stay at a poor workplace - poor or non committed ones do, because it’s easy.

In general, some of the main tenets in changing a culture are:

Clearly Define the expected culture.
Clear, succinct and constant communication with all employees around their team and individual expectations
Leadership Example - from the top dog.
Relentless Follow-up and correction (kind of like a no dickheads policy)
Most importantly, create conditions that align with the desired culture AND Accountability

All of these take time and require a Board with the required knowledge, experience and ability to undertake this; in my opinion, this board falls seriously short in all of these areas.

That all makes sense if we were a normal commercial organisation. But it looks like there’s a real difficulty in applying accountability at board level in a sporting organisation which appears to operate in two distinct halves. My understanding is that the board generally manages the commercial side of the organisation and whilst they would have oversight and probably ultimate approval in football operations appointments like Pascoe, Hartigan and Madge, I would have thought they’d have little say in day to day standards within the playing group. With a contract HR structure, unless theres performance clauses built into contracts it really hard to hold people to account through getting rid of players. The second option of demoting players for poor performance works if the club has adequate depth which probably doesn’t have right now either. I think that a high performance culture needs to be created by the Football department driven by Hartigan and Madge (and maybe Sheens). The challenge is holding each other to account. How do we do it when there’s few levers to pull.
Maybe Fox should have done a docco on the Storm ……

What you say is generally true but the board has input by appointments to the operational side of the business (ie football department) - the Board is ultimately responsible for it all.
Yes it is a unique “organisation” being a sporting organisation but the same rules apply as far as I’m concerned and there are numerous examples of great boards and governance in all types of sporting organisations both here and around the world.

Look at the All Blacks for example, numerous stories about culture and attitudes of all concerned. Is the organisation that good because it dominates all before it on the field which leads to a great culture or is it because it was setup and is managed to a lofty standard and it’s unbreakable expectations of success for both on and off field performance is why they are successful?

I can see what you mean in what your saying. And I don’t want to come across as argumentative, I guess it’s hard to really understand without actual examples of boards demonstrating through actions. Everything you hear about the successful clubs having a good culture from the top down is all very high level comments without much substance . What I do understand about culture is it requires buy in from everyone and currently our guys don’t seem to be displaying that but in. Madge always talks about working hard for your team mates particularly when things are going against you. That sounds like a good culture to have to me yet we can’t embed it. I also know that leaders embed culture through their own actions and if you believe what you hear, Madge rips in during pre season with the boys. Pretty good example I reckon and someone I’d want to follow. So why aren’t the boys buying in? is it simply we haven’t recruited players with the right attitude? The whole thing stinks of the clubs solution is punt the coach and start again. If that’s the case I’m hopeful that 2036 is gonna be our year.

Again what you say can be true, culture has been described as one of the most difficult things to build and easiest to tear down in an instant.

All I can add is (and I don’t want to use the “bus” word) but generally employees (players, coaches etc) are seeking workplaces where they can intertwine their beliefs with those of the club and work together on a common vision of purpose and success. Hence possibly why we struggle currently to recruit top line players…. And we need to jettison those that aren’t on board - once we determine what our culture is, that is.

We are obviously grappling with how to recruit top players and retain them but we must rethink how the club is shaping and building a culture that unites people around a common cause.

Great culture should provide continuous alignment to the vision, purpose, and goals of the organisation- and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, that’s the Boards responsibility.

 

[BZN]

My only contribution follows the 'attitude' and 'leadership' lines.

Comments about Seyfarth talking it up last night demonstrate that someone (anyone) with a winning attitude can exhibit leadership qualities. In my opinion, that is the kind of leadership we need, just players that care about the result. Players that can contribute positively when things aren't going to plan.

WT's problem is, there aren't enough of these players in the squad.

We are recruiting players that can do a job well enough in their position while everything is going OK but lose their heads as soon as momentum swings against us. They are not bad players, and many could be picked up by a top 4 team and excel in their position because they are surrounded by leaders. As many have commented, if XYZ player went to the storm (for example) their game would improve.

I think the reasoning behind Tamou's recruitment was correct, but we need that right across the park. Again, I think allowing Cory Thompson to move on was a mistake. We need to get to a situation where if someone knocks on, they don't drop their head but work to make up for it. Not only that, but rest of the team is confident that that player will account for their mistake, so there are no passengers and no need for finger pointing.

If we have reached a point where there is alot of finger pointing within the ranks, we are in trouble. This is the point where the players with the winning attitude begin to look around and think about going to a squad where the winning attitude is the culture.

I really don't buy into the 'we need a marquee signing' argument at all. We need to sign attitude full stop.

Excellent post @NT_Tiger

 

[Telltails]

Only two teams are you good at defending Melbourne and Penrith. Every other team has had defensive issues and are inconsistent - whether the coach has inherited a team or recruited one. Players/ teams may have not adapted to the game but neither have the fans who expect defensive efforts to replicate how they were with the old rules. Fatigue sin bins and possession rate equate to blow out scores and or teams getting role on that the opposition can't defend.

 

[BZN]

Has anybody noticed that Wests Tigers has gotten worse as soon as Wests Ashfield has assumed full control of the club or is it a coincidence

Why dont Wests Ashfield bow out and leave it to Balmain Leagues?............. oh thats right. Please bear that in mind.

Whats the other option-Balmain Leagues gone bye bye, Campbelltown Wests not involved. Do we just fold / relocate? How will WA be recompensed for their investment? Benny Elias and his cabal of 'ínvestors?' Alternately could WA subsume the defunct Balmain and approach the NRL to become the Magpies again and relocate? None of these scenarios are good. We are the Wests Tigers now and we should at least be greatful the WA board have kept things running. We might not like all the results and yes, we need some hard decisions made rather than just keep treading water but I dont trust NRL HQ to act n our interest- I trust WA more.

:+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1:

 

[BZN]

Has anybody noticed that Wests Tigers has gotten worse as soon as Wests Ashfield has assumed full control of the club or is it a coincidence

A truly stupid comment.

X 10

 

[BZN]

Has anybody noticed that Wests Tigers has gotten worse as soon as Wests Ashfield has assumed full control of the club or is it a coincidence

I think it's quite disgusting and disrespectful that you are prepared to say this.

 

[DGilly]

Tino and Fifita make the case perfectly. Doens't matter how talented you are, if you're mentally weak your team doesn't win

 

[Tonymontana]

Tedesco
Moses
Woods
Taupau
Nathan Brown
Fifita
Koroibete
Addo-Carr
Sironen
Paseka
Papenhuyzen
Suli
Tatola
Austin

It is definitely a player problem, losing good players mostly juniors to be left with this was the boards fault for the appointment of (Potter,Taylor and Cleary), not Maguire's fault and it is the poor attitude of this playing group.

 

[voice_of_reason]

4 tries down our right side defence early last night were not the middles fault. Noffa, JTJ and Luciano were as bad as anything I've seen defensively.

I just watched them again. First one from dummy half was laziness from LL. Mbye, JTJ and Noffo were all marked up (in fact there was still a winger wider because Storm had an edge back rower running a line). If the Jet or Nofo come in they'd be crucified on here.

Try two was off the cuff play from Storm. Nofo misses JAC badly but you can see he's in two minds about if Joffo is going to get either Hines or the 12.



The Finucane try, LL actually took no-one and ran between two of their players. One of the commentators on Fox was pretty critical of this. I felt sorry for Joffo because I thought he was having a decent crack last night



The Munster try, LL looks a bit late and it could probably be argued that DL is poorly positioned.



I'm wondering if the changes to defensive structures a couple of week ago (not jamming in as much) has left the middle a bit looser. Whilst the tries were all on our right edge I don't think JTJ can be blamed for any. Nofo and Mbye maybe one and LL definitely a couple.

After being down 30-0 after 17 minutes, only conceding 10 more before half time was realistically better than I was expecting.

 

[sleeve]

We have never been successful buying other clubs players. We have only done well when we developed and bought through our own. Look who we have bought over the last few years - most have been poor and taken up large amount of our cap. We need to stop looking for blokes like tpj bj jtj and develop our own kids. More of the Alex Seyfarths and the like. Our jersey Flagg side and Reggie’s are going well - let’s keep the good ones from these teams and develop them through. Sheensy can’t come quick enough.

look at cini...cult hero one week, rough game the next then dropped....now mamaulo is here what is cini to think or do?

he should've had a longer run in the team imo

Cinni and TT are both not going anywhere.

 

[izotope]

We have never been successful buying other clubs players. We have only done well when we developed and bought through our own. Look who we have bought over the last few years - most have been poor and taken up large amount of our cap. We need to stop looking for blokes like tpj bj jtj and develop our own kids. More of the Alex Seyfarths and the like. Our jersey Flagg side and Reggie’s are going well - let’s keep the good ones from these teams and develop them through. Sheensy can’t come quick enough.

look at cini...cult hero one week, rough game the next then dropped....now mamaulo is here what is cini to think or do?

he should've had a longer run in the team imo

Cinni and TT are both not going anywhere.

TT better be going to KOEC

 

[TYGA]

4 tries down our right side defence early last night were not the middles fault. Noffa, JTJ and Luciano were as bad as anything I've seen defensively.


I just watched them again. First one from dummy half was laziness from LL. Mbye, JTJ and Noffo were all marked up (in fact there was still a winger wider because Storm had an edge back rower running a line). If the Jet or Nofo come in they'd be crucified on here.

Try two was off the cuff play from Storm. Nofo misses JAC badly but you can see he's in two minds about if Joffo is going to get either Hines or the 12.


The Finucane try, LL actually took no-one and ran between two of their players. One of the commentators on Fox was pretty critical of this.


The Muntser try, LL looks a bit late and it could probably be argued that DL is poorly positioned.


I'm wondering if the changes to defensive structures a couple of week ago (not jamming in as much) has left the middle a bit looser. Whilst the tries were all on our right edge I don't think JTJ can be blamed for any. Nofo and Mbye maybe one and LL definitely a couple.

After being down 30-0 after 17 minutes, only conceding 10 more before half time was realistically better than I was expecting.

Good analysis. Reality is we have a conga line of bad defenders on one edge and Bellamy was going to tear us apart. Mbye, Luch, Jet, Nofa.
They simply ran hard to commit numbers and then shifted. Probably to their surprise they steamrolled us from setup crash plays .

 

[the_third]

Lots of posts above are saying it’s a culture problem.

Culture, or more importantly, applying the cultural values in daily work activities is every employee’s (coach, player and staff) responsibility and I would say that is shockingly absent.

however without doubt the cultural health of an organisation is the responsibility of the organisation’s leadership. The board, which sits at the apex of the organisational hierarchy with ultimate authority and accountability for the organisation, is part of the organisation’s leadership along with executive management, and therefore must have the ultimate role in forming and monitoring the culture.

Not happening here.

Privatisation?

Nothing's changed for a decade

Some accountability externally?
NRL?
We're an important ent part in their business that side of things is humming $$$

Private ownership?

take all the wests Ashfield board members off the football board and have a bette structure of people who can run a club. That's simple. Those dinosaurs need to slip off into the distance and get some proper sports execs in