Jacob Liddle #198

[the_third]

The nrl app stats have Liddle with 8 missed tackles. Watching the game I must admit I didn’t notice that many from him, but if that’s the case then it’s a little concerning. For a comparison Tamou had 49 tackles with only 1 miss.

In real time didn’t notice but I watched the game a 2nd time and geez you could see some bad misses . He missed some really important tackles that led to the majority of mini breaks up the middle of the park and gave the Raiders momentum.

Look it’s an 80min game against a top 3 forward pack in the comp. He will be better for the run but if he is the front line defender he has no hope. I’m more concerned about him not being able to run out of dummy half. Thats his strength and we need it.

Well if you watched it again you would of noticed the forwards targeting him all game. You would of noticed the markers putting heavy pressure on him. You also would have noticed that he held his own in front on tackles.
You would of noticed that those breaks were made when our forwards and Liddle were retreating back to the line being involved in the previous tackle and having to come and square up again and receiving no assistance from the other defenders in the side.
You also would of noticed that the raiders would push our defenders down in the ruck, roll to the side or step across to play the ball to get space around the ruck.
You would of noticed the whole line leaving off their Mark prior to the ball being received at dummy half.
You also would have seen how liddle would scoop the ball up and engage both the markers before passing and there was rarely a time when there was a raider defender out of position or on the ground, but in doing so he was looking for that opportunity every time.
The whole team needs a bit of time unfortunately but I really was impressed in second viewing of what Liddle was doing out of dummy half. If he can fix up his passing under fatigue and the whole team can get a systemic method that has our A and B defenders rotating and not continually tackling and we’ll do just fine.

Agree with all of that - he is a good dummy half, but when we went missing in that 10 mins after 1/2 time he needed to get us on track, Cam Smith style (cough). He plays a key role in the team, and has enough wraps on him that he needs to shoulder some of that responsibility.

The kid is good, really good. He's always going to get targeted, always going to have to deal with pretty much everything you said. It's how he performed under that pressure that will mark him as ok/good/great.

it will take time, but Simpkin is waiting in the wings and he also has wraps.

 

[Tiger5150]

The nrl app stats have Liddle with 8 missed tackles. Watching the game I must admit I didn’t notice that many from him, but if that’s the case then it’s a little concerning. For a comparison Tamou had 49 tackles with only 1 miss.

In real time didn’t notice but I watched the game a 2nd time and geez you could see some bad misses . He missed some really important tackles that led to the majority of mini breaks up the middle of the park and gave the Raiders momentum.

Look it’s an 80min game against a top 3 forward pack in the comp. He will be better for the run but if he is the front line defender he has no hope. I’m more concerned about him not being able to run out of dummy half. Thats his strength and we need it.

Well if you watched it again you would of noticed the forwards targeting him all game. You would of noticed the markers putting heavy pressure on him. You also would have noticed that he held his own in front on tackles.
You would of noticed that those breaks were made when our forwards and Liddle were retreating back to the line being involved in the previous tackle and having to come and square up again and receiving no assistance from the other defenders in the side.

Thats called Rugba leeg.

I cant imagine that Liddle and the pack will ever strike these circumstances again......until Sunday.

Seriously, if everything you listed above is a reason for Liddles performance, then he is not an 80min hooker and maybe not a first grade hooker at all.

What do you mean a reason for his performance. I wasn’t making excuses for his performance. I was just pointing out the subtle’s in the way we play as per the raiders play. I feel there were a lot of lessons that he and the team will learn from. I was simply saying i didn’t have a problem with his performance in that game.


Ok, let me put this another way.

If Jacob Liddle, or Michael Maguire were unaware of such "subtle" lessons as:

* The opposition forwards are going to run at the hooker,

* The markers are going to pressure the dummy half,

* Its harder to defend laterally or

* a charging attack will try to hit you as you retreat.....

Then Liddle, J and Maguire, M have no right to be at Campbelltown on Sunday.

And if nothing is going to change between the matches, then your ultimate paragraph stands. I haven't watched a replay, but wrote then of Ricky having prior the kickoff already having a coaching win over Maguire on Sunday afternoon, with his gameplan, particularly around our ruck acted out from the first possession.

One coach had the same player you also like for his speed and direction of pass from the ground no longer doing that and it had continued on from the trial against Manly to play directly into Stuart's hands. Simpkin had adjusted his game similarly in that match and though that style worked against Manly, Ricky and his staff noted the difference and dedicated their defence to it all eighty, yet we persisted.

Pretty well everyone watching the Raiders game noticed Liddle was basically not passing from behind the play the ball, let alone his forte from the ground. If Maguire wants a nine whose natural game is stepping out first and foremost, fine, put that player there, but don't take away another's strong points from their game to manufacture the player wanted.

I expect that the coach will have made some changes at training this week.

Possibly. Of course you know my point was not that Liddle or Maguire should be sacked/dropped but only if they didnt understand th eU14 concepts that I have repeated enough.

Bottom line, Liddles performance was poor, whether it was coachs directions, rust from first proper match back against decent opposition for a long time or maybe all the injuries have caught up with him? No way of knowing, but time will tell relatively quickly. If Liddle is performing to that standard in 4-5 weeks there will be no more discussion about him.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Agree with all of that - he is a good dummy half, but when we went missing in that 10 mins after 1/2 time he needed to get us on track, Cam Smith style (cough). He plays a key role in the team, and has enough wraps on him that he needs to shoulder some of that responsibility.

We basically defended for about nine of those ten minutes when not awaiting the conversion, so not much a nine with tired equally tired team-mates that probably cannot kick a 20/40 or the reverse can do.

 

[JC99]

Let me double down on my recent comments.....

If Madge has to teach critical players like Liddle lessons on how to play the game that they should have learned in U/14's, we are stuffed.

It should be polish at this stage and if not, get out of the way.

I think you’re over exaggerating a bit. All I gathered on what @Needaname was saying was that Liddle needs more than 1 game to prove himself. And like what’s been repeated several times in this thread, just playing 80 mins is a monumental achievement for him based on what he’s gone through

I don't see him being dropped for a while. He'll be starting 9 for at least another 5-6 games probably unless he somehow has heaps of shockers in a row. There was definitely positives in his game on Sunday

I’m not sure we have the luxury to give all our poor performers 5-6 weeks to get their act together.

Like I said, if he has a few shockers he'll be dropped earlier. If he keeps playing like he did on Sunday he'll keep his spot for a bit, he had some positives some negatives. Guess we will have to see, hopefully does well

 

[tony soprano]

I don’t know why Madge doesn’t play two hookers.

 

[JC99]

Why the sudden blame on Madge for liddles passing? Somehow I doubt he told Liddle to gives our halves slow service on purpose. Liddle looked like he was in two minds to me, did it in the trial game too.

Either run or pass, don't try do a little of both, that's the message I'd be giving Jacob

 

[Tim Sheens]

The nrl app stats have Liddle with 8 missed tackles. Watching the game I must admit I didn’t notice that many from him, but if that’s the case then it’s a little concerning. For a comparison Tamou had 49 tackles with only 1 miss.

In real time didn’t notice but I watched the game a 2nd time and geez you could see some bad misses . He missed some really important tackles that led to the majority of mini breaks up the middle of the park and gave the Raiders momentum.

Look it’s an 80min game against a top 3 forward pack in the comp. He will be better for the run but if he is the front line defender he has no hope. I’m more concerned about him not being able to run out of dummy half. Thats his strength and we need it.

Well if you watched it again you would of noticed the forwards targeting him all game. You would of noticed the markers putting heavy pressure on him. You also would have noticed that he held his own in front on tackles.
You would of noticed that those breaks were made when our forwards and Liddle were retreating back to the line being involved in the previous tackle and having to come and square up again and receiving no assistance from the other defenders in the side.

Thats called Rugba leeg.

I cant imagine that Liddle and the pack will ever strike these circumstances again......until Sunday.

Seriously, if everything you listed above is a reason for Liddles performance, then he is not an 80min hooker and maybe not a first grade hooker at all.

What do you mean a reason for his performance. I wasn’t making excuses for his performance. I was just pointing out the subtle’s in the way we play as per the raiders play. I feel there were a lot of lessons that he and the team will learn from. I was simply saying i didn’t have a problem with his performance in that game.


Ok, let me put this another way.

If Jacob Liddle, or Michael Maguire were unaware of such "subtle" lessons as:

* The opposition forwards are going to run at the hooker,

* The markers are going to pressure the dummy half,

* Its harder to defend laterally or

* a charging attack will try to hit you as you retreat.....

Then Liddle, J and Maguire, M have no right to be at Campbelltown on Sunday.

And if nothing is going to change between the matches, then your ultimate paragraph stands. I haven't watched a replay, but wrote then of Ricky having prior the kickoff already having a coaching win over Maguire on Sunday afternoon, with his gameplan, particularly around our ruck acted out from the first possession.

One coach had the same player you also like for his speed and direction of pass from the ground no longer doing that and it had continued on from the trial against Manly to play directly into Stuart's hands. Simpkin had adjusted his game similarly in that match and though that style worked against Manly, Ricky and his staff noted the difference and dedicated their defence to it all eighty, yet we persisted.

Pretty well everyone watching the Raiders game noticed Liddle was basically not passing from behind the play the ball, let alone his forte from the ground. If Maguire wants a nine whose natural game is stepping out first and foremost, fine, put that player there, but don't take away another's strong points from their game to manufacture the player wanted.

I expect that the coach will have made some changes at training this week.


Possibly. Of course you know my point was not that Liddle or Maguire should be sacked/dropped but only if they didnt understand th eU14 concepts that I have repeated enough.

Bottom line, Liddles performance was poor, whether it was coachs directions, rust from first proper match back against decent opposition for a long time or maybe all the injuries have caught up with him? No way of knowing, but time will tell relatively quickly. If Liddle is performing to that standard in 4-5 weeks there will be no more discussion about him.

I hadn't read past that which I quoted and I think he went well in defence regardless. Surely though you noticed one of his best and long held attributes was pretty well non-existent and it is not a natural thing to lose the basis of one's game.

 

[Tiger5150]

The nrl app stats have Liddle with 8 missed tackles. Watching the game I must admit I didn’t notice that many from him, but if that’s the case then it’s a little concerning. For a comparison Tamou had 49 tackles with only 1 miss.

In real time didn’t notice but I watched the game a 2nd time and geez you could see some bad misses . He missed some really important tackles that led to the majority of mini breaks up the middle of the park and gave the Raiders momentum.

Look it’s an 80min game against a top 3 forward pack in the comp. He will be better for the run but if he is the front line defender he has no hope. I’m more concerned about him not being able to run out of dummy half. Thats his strength and we need it.

Well if you watched it again you would of noticed the forwards targeting him all game. You would of noticed the markers putting heavy pressure on him. You also would have noticed that he held his own in front on tackles.
You would of noticed that those breaks were made when our forwards and Liddle were retreating back to the line being involved in the previous tackle and having to come and square up again and receiving no assistance from the other defenders in the side.

Thats called Rugba leeg.

I cant imagine that Liddle and the pack will ever strike these circumstances again......until Sunday.

Seriously, if everything you listed above is a reason for Liddles performance, then he is not an 80min hooker and maybe not a first grade hooker at all.

What do you mean a reason for his performance. I wasn’t making excuses for his performance. I was just pointing out the subtle’s in the way we play as per the raiders play. I feel there were a lot of lessons that he and the team will learn from. I was simply saying i didn’t have a problem with his performance in that game.


Ok, let me put this another way.

If Jacob Liddle, or Michael Maguire were unaware of such "subtle" lessons as:

* The opposition forwards are going to run at the hooker,

* The markers are going to pressure the dummy half,

* Its harder to defend laterally or

* a charging attack will try to hit you as you retreat.....

Then Liddle, J and Maguire, M have no right to be at Campbelltown on Sunday.

And if nothing is going to change between the matches, then your ultimate paragraph stands. I haven't watched a replay, but wrote then of Ricky having prior the kickoff already having a coaching win over Maguire on Sunday afternoon, with his gameplan, particularly around our ruck acted out from the first possession.

One coach had the same player you also like for his speed and direction of pass from the ground no longer doing that and it had continued on from the trial against Manly to play directly into Stuart's hands. Simpkin had adjusted his game similarly in that match and though that style worked against Manly, Ricky and his staff noted the difference and dedicated their defence to it all eighty, yet we persisted.

Pretty well everyone watching the Raiders game noticed Liddle was basically not passing from behind the play the ball, let alone his forte from the ground. If Maguire wants a nine whose natural game is stepping out first and foremost, fine, put that player there, but don't take away another's strong points from their game to manufacture the player wanted.

I expect that the coach will have made some changes at training this week.


Possibly. Of course you know my point was not that Liddle or Maguire should be sacked/dropped but only if they didnt understand th eU14 concepts that I have repeated enough.

Bottom line, Liddles performance was poor, whether it was coachs directions, rust from first proper match back against decent opposition for a long time or maybe all the injuries have caught up with him? No way of knowing, but time will tell relatively quickly. If Liddle is performing to that standard in 4-5 weeks there will be no more discussion about him.

I hadn't read past that which I quoted and I think he went well in defence regardless. Surely though you noticed one of his best and long held attributes was pretty well non-existent and it is not a natural thing to lose the basis of one's game.

Agreed, it was disappointing and worrying. It was one of the key parts of his game that I thought would compliment this pack and it obviously didnt eventuate at all. His game was poor on both sides of the ball. Ive seen it better and therefore I am hopeful but when a player has so many injuries, there has to be the risk that they dont come back the same player. THere is that risk and I desperately hope for him and the team that is not the case. Whilst I can see promise in Simpkin, I think he is too young and is not ready yet.

Bottom line is he wasnt good and needs to improve for his sake and the teams.

 

[avocadoontoast]

Let me double down on my recent comments.....

If Madge has to teach critical players like Liddle lessons on how to play the game that they should have learned in U/14's, we are stuffed.

It should be polish at this stage and if not, get out of the way.

I think you’re over exaggerating a bit. All I gathered on what @Needaname was saying was that Liddle needs more than 1 game to prove himself. And like what’s been repeated several times in this thread, just playing 80 mins is a monumental achievement for him based on what he’s gone through

I don't see him being dropped for a while. He'll be starting 9 for at least another 5-6 games probably unless he somehow has heaps of shockers in a row. There was definitely positives in his game on Sunday

I’m not sure we have the luxury to give all our poor performers 5-6 weeks to get their act together.

Like I said, if he has a few shockers he'll be dropped earlier. If he keeps playing like he did on Sunday he'll keep his spot for a bit, he had some positives some negatives. Guess we will have to see, hopefully does well

I’m probably sounding harsh but I didn’t see many positives at all. He made a lot of tackles but he missed 8. His service was ordinary and he didn’t threaten in attack.

 

[Tiger5150]

Let me double down on my recent comments.....

If Madge has to teach critical players like Liddle lessons on how to play the game that they should have learned in U/14's, we are stuffed.

It should be polish at this stage and if not, get out of the way.

I think you’re over exaggerating a bit. All I gathered on what @Needaname was saying was that Liddle needs more than 1 game to prove himself. And like what’s been repeated several times in this thread, just playing 80 mins is a monumental achievement for him based on what he’s gone through

I don't see him being dropped for a while. He'll be starting 9 for at least another 5-6 games probably unless he somehow has heaps of shockers in a row. There was definitely positives in his game on Sunday

I’m not sure we have the luxury to give all our poor performers 5-6 weeks to get their act together.

Like I said, if he has a few shockers he'll be dropped earlier. If he keeps playing like he did on Sunday he'll keep his spot for a bit, he had some positives some negatives. Guess we will have to see, hopefully does well

I’m probably sounding harsh but I didn’t see many positives at all. He made a lot of tackles but he missed 8. His service was ordinary and he didn’t threaten in attack.

LAst Sunday was about as bad as Ive seen him play, but for mine his previous games buy him enough grace for a couple of weeks.

 

[jirskyr]

Lauren,in my honest opinion,when Madge has Liddle,Douhi,Brooks and Laurie all on the paddock together regularly,we will see how different the team and gameplans will be,,,stay strong have faith in Madge for at least 6/7 games then we can judge ...He has new recruits older and younger to get to GEL for 80 mins.not an easy task to get right overnight...

Madge did say it’ll take him 5 or 6 rounds for him to work out the best dynamic for the team.

My guess is Madge wants to put Simpkin in but he's still just a kid and doesn't want to burn him. Liddle is already easy evidence of the difficulty blooding a young hooker in modern League, given the huge workloads they are required to undertake and the requirement to play close to 80 mins.

I'm guessing Simpkin would also be much closer to playing now if he hadn't basically missed a year of proper contact football due to COVID. Don't think it's a surprise that Madge hasn't yet named any players in 2021 who didn't play FG in 2020? Even if only a handful of matches.

 

[jirskyr]

I'm concerned that Liddle got his arms knocked down at least twice, which is normally a rare thing across an entire football season, let alone twice in a match.

No argument from me that the Raiders were pushing offside all match and the ref wasn't aggressively policing it, but he generally needs to get rid of the footy earlier. Raiders swarming defence was maintained all match and we never had enough lead time either through quick PTB or quick distribution.

As an aside: does anyone think teams will be willing to give away more offside penalties 2021 because they are not directly penalised? Ruck infringements are one thing because they are typically borderline/accidental - if you really make an obvious ruck infringement it becomes a professional foul and you will get binned. But offsides - I think there is a far larger margin for intentional infringement without being a professional foul.

 

[mike]

I'm concerned that Liddle got his arms knocked down at least twice, which is normally a rare thing across an entire football season, let alone twice in a match.

No argument from me that the Raiders were pushing offside all match and the ref wasn't aggressively policing it, but he generally needs to get rid of the footy earlier. Raiders swarming defence was maintained all match and we never had enough lead time either through quick PTB or quick distribution.

As an aside: does anyone think teams will be willing to give away more offside penalties 2021 because they are not directly penalised? Ruck infringements are one thing because they are typically borderline/accidental - if you really make an obvious ruck infringement it becomes a professional foul and you will get binned. But offsides - I think there is a far larger margin for intentional infringement without being a professional foul.

The Raiders were consistently offside but weren’t pulled up for most. That’s how they achieve their rushing up defence by starting around 8 mtrs.

 

[diedpretty]

He didn't pass off the ground once I reckon. Very very slow service, it's a worry he can't do that simple yet integral part of the game

Maybe it was because of the fact it was raining ? And the ball , this year feels like a cake of soap apparently, when wet.

All the other hookers seem to be handling the rain fine. There's no excuses for it, his service sucked.

Cook didn't and he is a SOO DH.

 

[Needaname]

Wow, all this discussion surrounding a couple of comments whilst I was cooking dinner.

Let me clarify, and Tigers5150 has messaged privately to check on me and clear the air so this is more in response to others responding.

There is a misconception of what I was saying.
I pointed out the differences I noticed between the two sides. And consequently the impact that had on the effectiveness of the hookers.
That was it.

I was happy with Jacobs game. It wasn’t great but no players were great. But for what he needed and the team needed to get out of the game, losing to a quality side there were positives. He could of been better, but I saw signs that along with others that there is a huge amount of growth in this very green side.
Sure the subltes between the two styles every player out there should have learnt in under 14s. But there is a difference between knowing to do something and knowing when you can do something, and they are things you pick up through playing the game, at speed not running through drills at training.

People had problems with Jacob not running and not passing direct. Maybe it is his coaching he is getting from Farah, But what I did notice is Jacob, eyes up looking up at the ruck and scan his options every time for an opportunity, at some instances he would talk to set a play on the left stand left and then pick and pass the ball right having both of the opposite markers move the opposite way. Maybe that was a chance to run instead of pass. But I see that as his way of reading the reactions of the ruck, this will only benefit us later. All hookers run when a player is caught in the middle space, with a quick play the ball, with a marker still on the ground etc, but I firmly believe the raiders were giving us nothing. Which mean’t we had to create space away from the ruck, and I feel that was achieved by our runs out wide.

Someone also mentioned it perfectly.
Sticky already read our game plan based on how we were effective against Manly and it all came off Liddle with the speed around the ruck.
Knowing full well that Jacob enjoys running they sent all their traffic his way. Maybe the tactic of not naming a dummy half played in sticky’s favour.

Either way naming only Liddle in the first two game and no Simpkins I’d say Madge has a long term plan for both hookers to get long minutes in their respective grades until he needs to call on his best 17 at some stage of the season. With two young inexperienced hookers these are the cards we were dealt. Just imagine if we chased Korisou harder than Penrith did in the end of 2019.

 

[JC99]

Batting down the arms of opposing hookers is a good strategy, I'd like to see us employ it. Makes it very difficult on the opposing hooker to get a nice pass away as they have to rush it

People harp on about Melbourne always creating new tactics but Canberra have been really big on it the last few years. Masters of the one on one strip as well as a few other smaller things

 

[Leck]

I don’t get some of the stupid comments and morons on this forum.

Jacob had an exceptional game for his first full 80 minutes in 3 years. 51 tackles and a try should be praised not vilified.

The fact is, as a team we had a brain explosion (again) after halftime, made crucial mistakes and then defensively folded like a deck of cards.

All you couch coaches need to pull your head in.

 

[tony soprano]

I don’t get some of the stupid comments and morons on this forum.

Jacob had an exceptional game for his first full 80 minutes in 3 years. 51 tackles and a try should be praised not vilified.

The fact is, as a team we had a brain explosion (again) after halftime, made crucial mistakes and then defensively folded like a deck of cards.

All you couch coaches need to pull your head in.

Pot

 

[Tiger5150]

I don’t get some of the stupid comments and morons on this forum.

Jacob had an exceptional game for his first full 80 minutes in 3 years. 51 tackles and a try should be praised not vilified.

The fact is, as a team we had a brain explosion (again) after halftime, made crucial mistakes and then defensively folded like a deck of cards.

All you couch coaches need to pull your head in.

Its a forum by which everyone expresses heir opinion. If you are of the opinion that everyone with a differing opinion than yours is a moron, this may not be the place for you.

51 tackles is an achievement and an indication of the traffic that liddle faced. Missed tackles of over 10% is nothing to right home about and his service from DH was poor.

Liddle has been a good player and has had good games, last sunday was not one of them.

 

[JC99]

I don’t get some of the stupid comments and morons on this forum.

Jacob had an exceptional game for his first full 80 minutes in 3 years. 51 tackles and a try should be praised not vilified.

The fact is, as a team we had a brain explosion (again) after halftime, made crucial mistakes and then defensively folded like a deck of cards.

All you couch coaches need to pull your head in.

Number one job for a dummy half... good service. He failed at that, he made a lot of tackles but he missed a lot too. Don't think it was a bad performance but it wasn't good let alone exceptional. He also barely ran the ball, plenty for him to improve on.