John Bateman #268

jirskyr said:
You don't know any of that to be true Earl. Don't fall into the trap that so many people have made in the past, of bothering to guess or assume what the value of the contract is.

The real question is - are Tigers actually going to land Bateman, and if yes, will be be an asset? I thought he was average at the back-end of his last Raiders season, but it was also under difficult personal circumstances (the issue with his ex-partner and kid, and the way the new Raiders deal played out in the media - I think Ricky Stuart defeated him in the press).

I consider there are two ways to look at it:
(1) Tim Sheens is the coach now and you have to let him do his thing for 2 years, same as Madge. Maybe he will get some results, or maybe he won't and we have another rebuild in 2025.

and

(2) Tim Sheens has proven himself to be pretty good at identifying and grading talent, even if he hasn't always achieved consistent finals success.

On #2, Sheens basically had 4 runs in his original decade with the Tigers.

The first run was the Sattler / Hodgo / Richards / Prince / Benji / Farah recruitment strategy 2003-2005, which obviously worked out great in 2005. That run fell away when Prince was stolen by Titans and Benji was out injured for the most of several seasons with shoulder issues.

The second run he made an error (or was limited in his options) by trying to get quality halfback play out of John Morris. Farah was in career-best form, but that wasn't true for several key players for the second run of 2006-2008.

Third run was the Gareth Ellis / Galloway / Tuqiri / Fulton / Gibbs / Tuiaki / Rob Lui / Chris Lawrence roster 2009-2011, which was in genuine finals contention for 3 years and really should have netted a 2nd premiership in 2010 or 2011, but for some bad luck.

The fourth run was his last one, a little desperate perhaps, where Sheens added Blair / Woods / Koroibete / Tedesco / Simona. I still think that roster had the makings of finals football, but after 10 years the club grew tired of these runs of 3-4 seasons with 1 or 2 finals appearances. They grew tired of the defensive inconsistency of the team especially against powerful sides. They didn't let him finish what he started.

There is also the argument that Sheens lost the confidence of the players in that final period, especially when he moved on Fifita and Gibbs. But he had other setbacks - Ellis was injured then asked to be released to go home. Tuiaki was a revelation and should still have had a longer career, same with Simon Dwyer. It wasn't Sheens' fault that Rob Lui assaulted his partner, and he couldn't fashion an acceptable replacement out of Moltzen, Humble or Jacob Miller. We will recall he ended up trying Ayshford and Curtis Siro at #6, then finally Farah at halfback (which was probably one step too far).

The whole Blair thing turned out badly, but also recall that Sheens only had 1 season with him before being sacked.

We also shouldn't forget that in Sheens' last year he debuted Tedesco and had lined up Brooks, Moses and Nofo as the next set of juniors to take a run at the finals. Whatever mistakes Tim Sheens made, I can't think of many players being stolen under his watch (really only Prince and Laffranchi, which are understandable), or a lack of strategy / long-term roster planning. I don't recall huge amounts of dead wood that we needed to shift, or terrible over-priced contracts that we were stuck with. It was Sheens' replacements that made huge roster mistakes, and we've been digging ourselves out of these holes since 2013.

I don't think it's any surprise then that we've entirely failed to make the finals since Sheens was sacked.

But despite this essay of mine, the point is: I think my argument shows that Sheens knows what it takes to build a roster, and typically it's a roster of fairly good quality. He typically has a good mix of experience and youth, and typically does not sign megastars from other clubs . The success of a Sheens roster usually hinges on injury tolls and an eternal lack of depth, which has always been a financial issue for the club as much as anything. Sheens had to deal with a lot of internal politics and a general lack of money for football ops, famously painting the changing sheds himself.

Tigers are spending a lot more on the football department in 2023 vs 2003, so hopefully Sheens has more financial capacity to achieve his means.

So I think - if Sheens thinks Bateman is worth it, then he probably is.
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Very good post. Some interesting points raised.
 
happy_tiger said:
So are we solely blaming Isaac Moses ??

Moses went out looking for a better deal for his client without his knowledge

Canberra and in particular Ricky stuart are lying when they gave him permission to negotiate a bigger better deal with another club

And why didn't the reason for being homesick come out until AFTER he got a better deal to go back to the ESL ??

That isn't made up ....all these things happened ......Stuart said as much in an interview ..if that was BS Bateman's legal team would of eaten Stuart for breakfast

If what many other CLAIM is true ...that his sole reason was being homesick and missing his daughter ...you would just come out and say it ...no fair blue blooded human with kids would question you for doing that and would probably give him some leniency .... true ??

Just like we did with one G Ellis ....he was honest ...we respected what he did for the club ..and moved on ..missed him like all hell ...but we understand family and the like come first
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It was in his contract that he could re negotiate every year raiders were silly enough to slow this clause in the contract. He then wanted a longer deal from raiders so he could bring his family over and raiders wouldn’t give it to him. Then covid hit and he couldn’t see his family at all and decided to head back to super league. He has unfinished business in the nrl I cannot wait to see him in a tigers jersey
 
jirskyr said:
You don't know any of that to be true Earl. Don't fall into the trap that so many people have made in the past, of bothering to guess or assume what the value of the contract is.

The real question is - are Tigers actually going to land Bateman, and if yes, will be be an asset? I thought he was average at the back-end of his last Raiders season, but it was also under difficult personal circumstances (the issue with his ex-partner and kid, and the way the new Raiders deal played out in the media - I think Ricky Stuart defeated him in the press).

I consider there are two ways to look at it:
(1) Tim Sheens is the coach now and you have to let him do his thing for 2 years, same as Madge. Maybe he will get some results, or maybe he won't and we have another rebuild in 2025.

and

(2) Tim Sheens has proven himself to be pretty good at identifying and grading talent, even if he hasn't always achieved consistent finals success.

On #2, Sheens basically had 4 runs in his original decade with the Tigers.

The first run was the Sattler / Hodgo / Richards / Prince / Benji / Farah recruitment strategy 2003-2005, which obviously worked out great in 2005. That run fell away when Prince was stolen by Titans and Benji was out injured for the most of several seasons with shoulder issues.

The second run he made an error (or was limited in his options) by trying to get quality halfback play out of John Morris. Farah was in career-best form, but that wasn't true for several key players for the second run of 2006-2008.

Third run was the Gareth Ellis / Galloway / Tuqiri / Fulton / Gibbs / Tuiaki / Rob Lui / Chris Lawrence roster 2009-2011, which was in genuine finals contention for 3 years and really should have netted a 2nd premiership in 2010 or 2011, but for some bad luck.

The fourth run was his last one, a little desperate perhaps, where Sheens added Blair / Woods / Koroibete / Tedesco / Simona. I still think that roster had the makings of finals football, but after 10 years the club grew tired of these runs of 3-4 seasons with 1 or 2 finals appearances. They grew tired of the defensive inconsistency of the team especially against powerful sides. They didn't let him finish what he started.

There is also the argument that Sheens lost the confidence of the players in that final period, especially when he moved on Fifita and Gibbs. But he had other setbacks - Ellis was injured then asked to be released to go home. Tuiaki was a revelation and should still have had a longer career, same with Simon Dwyer. It wasn't Sheens' fault that Rob Lui assaulted his partner, and he couldn't fashion an acceptable replacement out of Moltzen, Humble or Jacob Miller. We will recall he ended up trying Ayshford and Curtis Siro at #6, then finally Farah at halfback (which was probably one step too far).

The whole Blair thing turned out badly, but also recall that Sheens only had 1 season with him before being sacked.

We also shouldn't forget that in Sheens' last year he debuted Tedesco and had lined up Brooks, Moses and Nofo as the next set of juniors to take a run at the finals. Whatever mistakes Tim Sheens made, I can't think of many players being stolen under his watch (really only Prince and Laffranchi, which are understandable), or a lack of strategy / long-term roster planning. I don't recall huge amounts of dead wood that we needed to shift, or terrible over-priced contracts that we were stuck with. It was Sheens' replacements that made huge roster mistakes, and we've been digging ourselves out of these holes since 2013.

I don't think it's any surprise then that we've entirely failed to make the finals since Sheens was sacked.

But despite this essay of mine, the point is: I think my argument shows that Sheens knows what it takes to build a roster, and typically it's a roster of fairly good quality. He typically has a good mix of experience and youth, and typically does not sign megastars from other clubs . The success of a Sheens roster usually hinges on injury tolls and an eternal lack of depth, which has always been a financial issue for the club as much as anything. Sheens had to deal with a lot of internal politics and a general lack of money for football ops, famously painting the changing sheds himself.

Tigers are spending a lot more on the football department in 2023 vs 2003, so hopefully Sheens has more financial capacity to achieve his means.

So I think - if Sheens thinks Bateman is worth it, then he probably is.
Click to expand...
Would you agree that the junior talent we had at our disposal from 2005 -2012 is eons better than we currently have

Marshall
Farah
Lawrence
Lui
Fifita
Woods
Tedesco
Dwyer
Halatau
Moltzen

And if we learnt anything from those years ...talent attracts talent ......Keefy ...Tuqiri ....Ellis ....Morris .....Hodgson .....Blair......

This club and this coach have neither at his disposal ...and my other issue with Sheens ....even those great sides at Canberra won games more often than not because they outscored sides .....and when he couldn't outscore sides his record was pretty bad ..you can't ignore defence in the modern game ...if you can't defend your line for multiple sets with the speed and the chances of getting dominated with possession %'s ...your team gets destroyed
 
jirskyr said:
So I think - if Sheens thinks Bateman is worth it, then he probably is.
Click to expand...

You write good stuff mate. I hear what you are stating.

Our opinions come down to how we view Bateman as a signing now. We won't know how it turns out until he gets here and performs assuming he does come here.

Sheens has been better than other coaches we've had but at the same time there were issues when he was there.

I'm not confident in Bateman and then you add Woods into the list it just sounds bad to me.

Hopefully I'm wrong.
 
happy_tiger said:
Bateman won't come cheap ...he'll be looking for 750 k a season ..maybe more to come play for us

My biggest concern is he isn't the biggest backrower going around (96kgs) and he plays like a 110 kg backrower

That takes a toll on your body and this will be his 11th season of Rugby League

I am very concerned about how many more seasons his body has left ..especially coming off a shoulder reco in 2020

If we get him lets hope he finds that Canberra form ...because he hasn't played as well as that since leaving Canberra ....

It has to be classed as a risky signing ...more risk than say Papa is ..thats for sure
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His Wigan club form …. not needed.
His England performances so far ….. yes …. but get real no way we would be paying $750k. Where did you pull that figure from?
 
Where trying to change the culture of the club we require tough no nonsense never say die players. It doesn’t matter if they are a little older we need this attitude to rub off onto the younger players. This is a signing to help these kids we have coming through. He will probably start as second row for the next 2 years and in the third be over taken by 1 of our young second row prospects
 
finnzo said:
Where trying to change the culture of the club we require tough no nonsense never say die players. It doesn’t matter if they are a little older we need this attitude to rub off onto the younger players. This is a signing to help these kids we have coming through. He will probably start as second row for the next 2 years and in the third be over taken by 1 of our young second row prospects
Click to expand...
Totally agree re age and experience but I can’t decide if he’d be a good signing or not. I feel like he might have peaked and throwing fairly large money( from what I read anyway) to bring him back to me is a big gamble.
 
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