Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[Kelce68]

The writing is on the wall whether it’s rightly or wrongly it hasn’t worked with Madge, he’s taken the playing group backwards. **When the journo‘s are openly saying the reason we can’t attract talent is the coach that’s it you’re done**. We all know for all the rubbish they write this part at least is reasonably documented. We have to move quickly not a huge fan of Flanno, Morris & Ciraldo are really the only other options it will be one of those 3 I’m guessing.

So the journo’s say who’s in and who’s out now. That’ll do me.

Wake up mate I said they are openly saying it, they have been for some time it’s pretty clear Madge can’t attract players if you can’t see that you’re asleep.

players do not want to come to wests tigers under Madge
look at Latrell he didn't want hard training that Madge brings chose Bennett.
JAC likely similar and also tpj
make a decision

Not buying that. They didn't want the pressure turning around a club without the players needed beside them to make it feasible. It destroys players. Teddy didn't want it, and why would any player subject themselves to that when they are just as attractive to all clubs.

I think honestly that's the new way of things. It's become clear over the last 5-10 years that certain clubs are almost always in the finals other clubs are almost always not in the finals. The rest fight out for the scraps, and periodically you get one or two teams falling into or out of the top-tier band.

Now know as the "haves" and "have-nots". Fundamentally it's always a core 5-6 teams in contention, usually including Roosters and Storm. Souths have been around that space for about 10 years, Eels joined it briefly (and appear on their way back out), Manly are ascendant right now and that would be at the expense of Raiders falling out. Penrith have come to the fore after a few seasons around the bottom 8 (that's a team maturity thing, having the right roster that suddenly clicks).

So in line with that understanding, I agree with you it makes it increasingly difficult to sign key players to lower sides at the same time as having a boon crop of juniors. And I don't just mean 1 or 2 notable players, I mean the key group of players that make a weekly difference over the course of a yearly campaign.

Almost to the point now, it seems the most elite footballers are more interested in success than money, like your Latrells and Tedescos signing on at ascendant clubs when they could definitely get more money elsewhere. I think a lot of that has to do with the value of modern salaries: we are talking half a million for middle-tier footballers, and even the bottom footballers get over a hundred grand. I think 10+ years ago, when the TV money wasn't so great, it was a very big difference $300K vs $400K. But $800K vs $900K? The same price gap becomes less significant the more you earn.

I'm guessing also endorsements are much easier to pick up when you are in a successful club and doing well - your personal brand shines. Look at all those deals Tedesco has managed since he joined Roosters - Nike, I think it's Menulog now; he's got a few others.

People have been asking - why is NRL increasingly favouring the haves over the have-nots? I believe that's one of the key reasons - the challenge for struggling clubs to make big-impact signings.

Of course the lower sides do manage to pick up top players from time to time, but very often those players are at such costs that they destabilise that side's salary cap. Very often those players don't transform a lower side into a top side. E.g. Warriors sign RTS, AFB, Reece Walsh, Tohu Harris - quality signings all of them, and very little difference in outcome for the franchise. Dragons signed Ben Hunt, Corey Norman, Tariq Sims, Paul Vaughan etc. and that hasn't worked either. Newcastle, even with Ponga, Pearce, Klemmer are barely a factor in the finals. I think Bulldogs are going to face the same issues - they have some notable signings but I don't think they are transformative signings, maybe Matt Burton, but he can't do it alone.

Summised this very well. There is a shadow salary cap and it's ruining this competition.

 

[old_man_tiger]

Question.

Am I right that Cleary is the only coach we've ever had who has gotten another job as an NRL head coach?

I know we've had some duds but that says a lot about the decisions we've made. No one we've hired has been good enough to coach anyone else, except a bloke who bailed like the scumbag rat he is.

So, what's going to be different this time?

 

[tony soprano]

Holbrook got the Titans in to the finals Madge couldn't get us in
always next year

Can you kindly give Madge access to David Fifita and Big Tino? Titans made the finals by the skin of their teeth and David Fifita alone is enough to make that one game difference.

Let's see if Titans actually factor at all in the finals, or dump out Week 1.

Exactly

 

[Curaeus]

I thought at the start of season we had a good rooster. We only had to win 11 of our 24 games to make the semi's and we can't even do that. That's how bad we have been this year. I think the next coach will be a rookie coach. I don't think any big name coach would want to coach us at the moment.

Only one of 16 NRL head coaching gigs available and more than a few out of work head coaches looking for a job. I think there may be quite a few applicants both senior and rookie!

 

[jirskyr]

The writing is on the wall whether it’s rightly or wrongly it hasn’t worked with Madge, he’s taken the playing group backwards. **When the journo‘s are openly saying the reason we can’t attract talent is the coach that’s it you’re done**. We all know for all the rubbish they write this part at least is reasonably documented. We have to move quickly not a huge fan of Flanno, Morris & Ciraldo are really the only other options it will be one of those 3 I’m guessing.

So the journo’s say who’s in and who’s out now. That’ll do me.

Wake up mate I said they are openly saying it, they have been for some time it’s pretty clear Madge can’t attract players if you can’t see that you’re asleep.

players do not want to come to wests tigers under Madge
look at Latrell he didn't want hard training that Madge brings chose Bennett.
JAC likely similar and also tpj
make a decision

Not buying that. They didn't want the pressure turning around a club without the players needed beside them to make it feasible. It destroys players. Teddy didn't want it, and why would any player subject themselves to that when they are just as attractive to all clubs.

I think honestly that's the new way of things. It's become clear over the last 5-10 years that certain clubs are almost always in the finals other clubs are almost always not in the finals. The rest fight out for the scraps, and periodically you get one or two teams falling into or out of the top-tier band.

Now know as the "haves" and "have-nots". Fundamentally it's always a core 5-6 teams in contention, usually including Roosters and Storm. Souths have been around that space for about 10 years, Eels joined it briefly (and appear on their way back out), Manly are ascendant right now and that would be at the expense of Raiders falling out. Penrith have come to the fore after a few seasons around the bottom 8 (that's a team maturity thing, having the right roster that suddenly clicks).

So in line with that understanding, I agree with you it makes it increasingly difficult to sign key players to lower sides at the same time as having a boon crop of juniors. And I don't just mean 1 or 2 notable players, I mean the key group of players that make a weekly difference over the course of a yearly campaign.

Almost to the point now, it seems the most elite footballers are more interested in success than money, like your Latrells and Tedescos signing on at ascendant clubs when they could definitely get more money elsewhere. I think a lot of that has to do with the value of modern salaries: we are talking half a million for middle-tier footballers, and even the bottom footballers get over a hundred grand. I think 10+ years ago, when the TV money wasn't so great, it was a very big difference $300K vs $400K. But $800K vs $900K? The same price gap becomes less significant the more you earn.

I'm guessing also endorsements are much easier to pick up when you are in a successful club and doing well - your personal brand shines. Look at all those deals Tedesco has managed since he joined Roosters - Nike, I think it's Menulog now; he's got a few others.

People have been asking - why is NRL increasingly favouring the haves over the have-nots? I believe that's one of the key reasons - the challenge for struggling clubs to make big-impact signings.

Of course the lower sides do manage to pick up top players from time to time, but very often those players are at such costs that they destabilise that side's salary cap. Very often those players don't transform a lower side into a top side. E.g. Warriors sign RTS, AFB, Reece Walsh, Tohu Harris - quality signings all of them, and very little difference in outcome for the franchise. Dragons signed Ben Hunt, Corey Norman, Tariq Sims, Paul Vaughan etc. and that hasn't worked either. Newcastle, even with Ponga, Pearce, Klemmer are barely a factor in the finals. I think Bulldogs are going to face the same issues - they have some notable signings but I don't think they are transformative signings, maybe Matt Burton, but he can't do it alone.

Summised this very well. There is a shadow salary cap and it's ruining this competition.

I follow Spurs in the Premier League, the recent Harry Kane issues really spell it out for me, the direction the NRL comp is moving.

For those that don't follow - Harry Kane is Spurs born and bred, arguably the top English striker and definitely in the top couple of EPL strikers. Man City made a 100 million POUND offer to Tottenham to take over his contract, still with 4 years to run. Man City already have an absolutely stacked roster, backed by seemingly endless Abu Dhabi royal family money, and had just completed another 100 million pound transfer of Jack Grealish.

Spurs knocked City back and there was a bit of a stalemate over the EPL break. Kane publicly said he wanted to leave. Spurs held out for a bigger offer, it didn't come, so Kane has publicly stated his ongoing commitment to Spurs and at the moment both club and player seem OK with the current arrangement.

Kane wants to leave to win trophies. Spurs are a financially prominent club but lack enduring success, highlighted particularly by an inability to actually win tournaments. They are usually always in the top 6 or so EPL sides, and have some other elite-level players, but not at the level of a Man City or Man Utd, and never seem to be able to overcome those last few top top funded sides.

So you can understand Kane's predicament - he's been at Spurs a long time and they aren't doing the job, despite his supremely handsome paypack of 200K pounds PER WEEK, he wants to win stuff before he retires. Like Tedesco. Spurs have been through 2 managers in the past 3 years.

But what does it say about a comp when your best player is subject to a mind-bogglingly large financial offer (or even a modest offer) to join a more successful, stacked roster? How do you compete when even the local-bred boys want to give up and join the dominant teams?

 

[Red Rugby]

I dont think the club is dumb enough to punt Madge.

He isnt perfect, but

He is the only one with a heart beat in the joint.

Were lucky if he stays.

I have been 100% in this camp until now. THere is clearly something badly broken and it is not being fixed. The most likely problem is the coach. It is possible that somehow its not Madges fault, but somehow the board, but less likely IMO.

I'm right there with you....

Maybe there needs to be a change of voice. Maybe a change of method so the players get a hug? Whatever is happening at the moment isn't working and the common denominator in it not working is the coach.

Unfortunately for the coach its a lot more financially palatable to move him on then replace the majority of your squad. Having said that I'd be inclined to move on 'highly paid' underachievers into the future (when its not perceived to be a firesale!)

 

[tony soprano]

Anyone got access to the pascoe article

 

[Crucible]

Look its all very well to sack Madge, but it costs us $750k to do it. Where do you think that money comes from? It will come out of the Football Operations Budget. So what gets buried and left for two years that was budgeted for? Remembering, that our income for 2021 has been smashed because of COVID.

 

[jirskyr]

Anyone got access to the pascoe article

From where?

 

[davey_farrell]

i was at the game yesterday, i got there early to watch the warm up, i could tell from the warm up the team werent up for the game, there was no intensity in the warm up and the players were just going through the motions. I then watched the dogs warm up and they were fired up geeing each other up and hitting hard in the warm up it was so chalk and cheese..
This was not a good sign i thought, i was in the corner where Meaney scored his tries, after each there was not one player talking in the huddle not one!!! In attack no one really apart from Blore and Stef wanted to hit the ball up, Liddle was looking for runners and no one showed urgency in attack. I wont go there for defense as i will be here all day. A scrum was formed about 20 out MCK was looking around at the crowd showing no interest at all to which man to mark up to.
My parnter who does not know much about League said it looks like your team doesnt care and why is he looking around not caring. She then said who ever your coach is there not playing for him,
To Noffas defence he was actually cranky and getting up players in defense.
It is clear to me, they are not playing for Madge and have not this whole year, as David Riccio said SEN this morning Maguire is a good coach but he is not a good coach for the Tigers.
It was pretty clear on the FOX show that we dont have leaders and Madge has tried his best but clearly this partnership has to end now. The players must take some responsibility too, i know if i was getting paid a bucket load of money i would try my best for the employer who employees me.
Just my thoughts and please if a review is put forward do not have Pascoe anywhere near it!!

 

[WT2K]

Anyone got access to the pascoe article

Can't access all of it. Got a snippet:
Wests Tigers chair Lee Hagipantelis has hit out at suggestions his friendship with Justin Pascoe impairs his judgment when it comes to the club’s chief executive, insisting he would recommend his termination if he was convinced that it would turn around their fortunes on the field.

 

[WT2K]

Anyone got access to the pascoe article

From where?

DT

 

[momo_amp_medo]

Look its all very well to sack Madge, but it costs us $750k to do it. Where do you think that money comes from? It will come out of the Football Operations Budget. So what gets buried and left for two years that was budgeted for? Remembering, that our income for 2021 has been smashed because of COVID.

Naaah! I’m pretty sure a Deep pockets supporter like Harry will fix it or come up with large % money for new coach.

 

[avocadoontoast]

Lee Hagipantelis weighs in on Wests Tigers CEO Justin Pascoe’s future
The Wests Tigers are in turmoil and while Michael Maguire’s future is up in the air, Justin Pascoe is also in the firing line.

Brent Read


Wests Tigers chair Lee Hagipantelis has hit out at suggestions his friendship with Justin Pascoe impairs his judgment when it comes to the club’s chief executive, insisting he would recommend his termination if he was convinced that it would turn around their fortunes on the field.

The Tigers have begun a review into their football operations after another season of bitter disappointment ended with a shellacking at the hands of last-placed Canterbury on Sunday afternoon.

That result has heaped pressure on coach Michael Maguire, whose position now appears almost untenable. Pascoe’s role in the organisation has also come under fire from unhappy Tigers supporters, who believe the chief executive should be held to account for the way the side has performed during his tenure.

Pascoe has been at helm of the Tigers for six years this month. In that time, the club has failed to qualify for the finals. At the same time, their balance sheet has improved significantly and Pascoe played a role in securing funding for a Centre of Excellence, which is scheduled to be completed later this year.

Hagipantelis insisted the responsibility for on-field performance rested largely with the football department and he would stand down himself if he was provided with any evidence that suggested the people in the club’s senior administrative positions were hampering their progress.

“The administration of the organisation itself is always under review,” Hagipantelis said.

“You have a continual review process each and every month when we have a board meeting. I understand winning starts in the front office — I understand that sentiment — but if I felt that my resignation as chair would assist on-field performance in some way, I would resign today.

“If I believed Pascoe’s termination would assist on-field performance, I would recommend his termination to the board.

“The issue we have to address and the issue I identify — with my limited expertise in football matters, I acknowledge that — is that the issue concerns on-field performance.

“We are a club that has provided almost unlimited resources and investment in the football department and the results don’t reflect that.

“I understand people are looking at the front office and I get that. They are perfectly entitled to do that.

“But I would need to be convinced by someone how the front office, how decisions in the front office, have resulted in a lack of on-field performance when at the end of the day you have a vigorous process of recruitment and retention involving the coach, the coaching staff, the general manager of football, which is all supported by the board and the club.

“There is a disconnect that exists at the moment and that is what has to be addressed. Off-field, the club is in a very healthy position and has made a very significant investment in that football department, but we haven’t got the results.

“That is the challenge.”

Hagipantelis insisted his judgment was not impacted by his friendship with Pascoe.

“I don’t think so,” he said.

“I see Justin as primarily responsible for the administration of the club - finances, investment, the centre of excellence, all of these things.

“Then you have a separate football department, which of course he oversees as part of his role. But again, Justin doesn’t have that level of expertise in football matters in terms of identifying talent or devising coaching manuals.

More Coverage
Elias urges Tigers to be ‘honest’ with Madge‘Embarrassed’ Lodge’s heartfelt apology over wild fight
“That is why you employ experts in that field. That is the point. People have to be responsible for their divisions. The CEO oversees the entire organisation, I get that.

“But I would need to be convinced how his role impacts on on-field performance. That is a football department issue. That is where the focus of our attention is at the moment.”

 

[WT2K]

cheers @avocadoontoast

 

[full80]

Question.

Am I right that Cleary is the only coach we've ever had who has gotten another job as an NRL head coach?

I know we've had some duds but that says a lot about the decisions we've made. No one we've hired has been good enough to coach anyone else, except a bloke who bailed like the scumbag rat he is.

So, what's going to be different this time?

It's a great point but do many Bottom 8 NRL coaches get other senior gigs. Ivan Henjak. Dean Pay. Shane Flanagan. Steve Kearney. Antony Siebold. Paul Mcgregor. Steve Price. Geoff Toovey?

The good ones do: Bennett, Griffin, Sheens, Hasler, Ricky Stuart, etc.

Just saying it's a brutal business with a lot of people coming up wanting to take your place. I'm certain that someone will think they could be 'different' at WTs, despite the reputation, cos there aren't that many jobs. And for ambitious people, staying an assistant, while all of your peers get top jobs, might be frustrating despite being in a 'good' system

 

[jadtiger]

Anyone got access to the pascoe article

Can't access all of it. Got a snippet:
Wests Tigers chair Lee Hagipantelis has hit out at suggestions his friendship with Justin Pascoe impairs his judgment when it comes to the club’s chief executive, insisting he would recommend his termination if he was convinced that it would turn around their fortunes on the field.

I wonder if "motor mouth" Lee would sack himself if it was found his removal would help the club.Somehow i doubt it

 

[avocadoontoast]

Reading that article my gut tells me Madge is gone and Pascoe is probably gone.

 

[tony soprano]

Lee Hagipantelis weighs in on Wests Tigers CEO Justin Pascoe’s future
The Wests Tigers are in turmoil and while Michael Maguire’s future is up in the air, Justin Pascoe is also in the firing line.

Brent Read


Wests Tigers chair Lee Hagipantelis has hit out at suggestions his friendship with Justin Pascoe impairs his judgment when it comes to the club’s chief executive, insisting he would recommend his termination if he was convinced that it would turn around their fortunes on the field.

The Tigers have begun a review into their football operations after another season of bitter disappointment ended with a shellacking at the hands of last-placed Canterbury on Sunday afternoon.

That result has heaped pressure on coach Michael Maguire, whose position now appears almost untenable. Pascoe’s role in the organisation has also come under fire from unhappy Tigers supporters, who believe the chief executive should be held to account for the way the side has performed during his tenure.

Pascoe has been at helm of the Tigers for six years this month. In that time, the club has failed to qualify for the finals. At the same time, their balance sheet has improved significantly and Pascoe played a role in securing funding for a Centre of Excellence, which is scheduled to be completed later this year.

Hagipantelis insisted the responsibility for on-field performance rested largely with the football department and he would stand down himself if he was provided with any evidence that suggested the people in the club’s senior administrative positions were hampering their progress.

“The administration of the organisation itself is always under review,” Hagipantelis said.

“You have a continual review process each and every month when we have a board meeting. I understand winning starts in the front office — I understand that sentiment — but if I felt that my resignation as chair would assist on-field performance in some way, I would resign today.

“If I believed Pascoe’s termination would assist on-field performance, I would recommend his termination to the board.

“The issue we have to address and the issue I identify — with my limited expertise in football matters, I acknowledge that — is that the issue concerns on-field performance.

“We are a club that has provided almost unlimited resources and investment in the football department and the results don’t reflect that.

“I understand people are looking at the front office and I get that. They are perfectly entitled to do that.

“But I would need to be convinced by someone how the front office, how decisions in the front office, have resulted in a lack of on-field performance when at the end of the day you have a vigorous process of recruitment and retention involving the coach, the coaching staff, the general manager of football, which is all supported by the board and the club.

“There is a disconnect that exists at the moment and that is what has to be addressed. Off-field, the club is in a very healthy position and has made a very significant investment in that football department, but we haven’t got the results.

“That is the challenge.”

Hagipantelis insisted his judgment was not impacted by his friendship with Pascoe.

“I don’t think so,” he said.

“I see Justin as primarily responsible for the administration of the club - finances, investment, the centre of excellence, all of these things.

“Then you have a separate football department, which of course he oversees as part of his role. But again, Justin doesn’t have that level of expertise in football matters in terms of identifying talent or devising coaching manuals.

More Coverage
Elias urges Tigers to be ‘honest’ with Madge‘Embarrassed’ Lodge’s heartfelt apology over wild fight
“That is why you employ experts in that field. That is the point. People have to be responsible for their divisions. The CEO oversees the entire organisation, I get that.

“But I would need to be convinced how his role impacts on on-field performance. That is a football department issue. That is where the focus of our attention is at the moment.”

Lee is a a psycho.

No evidence pascoe or board dont hinder football

- let's Jason Taylor looser all out juniors
- hires mate cleary who let's all juniors go and leaves us for Panthers
- hires madge not working out
- hires hartigan not qualified for the role
- does a documentary we laughing stock of nrl again
- doesn't know how to deal with media
- gets a COE for the crappest players in nrl
- no fans like pascoe

Lee has zero clue

 

[Go_You_Good_Things]

I'm undecided if Madge needs to go, or not . . . . but if he does get punted, and we have to start all over again with the "rebuilding" phase . . . and we have to go through a whole 'nuther lot of "Judge me when I have my squad, I can't work with the last bloke's players" . . . and the endless crap performances, and the same excuses we have had for the past 10 years . . . I sure hope the "punt Madge" brigade don't line up the next coach in 2 or 3 years time.
Around this time last year most of us were saying that 2021 wasn't going to be a great year . . rebuilding, crap roster, etc. We knew that lean times were ahead.
But now everyone expects success from this real ordinary roster immediately . . . and when it doesn't come they blame the coach.
I'm buggered if I know the real problem, but if this lot " aren't playing" for their coach . . . and they have played fairly poorly all year . . . do we keep punting coaches whenever a gutless group of players decide that the coach is training them too hard ?
I just get the feeling that if we punt Madge we will be having this same conversation at the end of the interim's tenure, then again in 3 years time when the players continue to dish up these same heartless performances.
Surely . . . surely the last 10 years has taught us something ?