Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[jirskyr]

Misleading
He did caretaker in 2012 and 2014 he was coach
2014 - took them to 10th after taking over from Stuart who got the spoon
2015th -12th
2016 which would be in line with madge tenure had them top 4 with salary cap debacle and they finished 14th
Then 2017 they made top 4
Whilst 2015 result went backwards they could see the improvements
whilst with madge the results are getting worse year on year (assuming this year remains at the level they are at ).

No I think the OP was on the money and you are making a misleading argument from the facts.

I agree 2012 doesn't count.

2014 was 10th. 2015 was 12th - worse. 2016 was 14th - worse again. If you give them back their deducted points in 2016 they would have come 8th on 30 points, not Top 4.

But then of course then you must address the fact that they played 2015 with salary cap breaches, took those into 2016 and were fined in March 2016. So Brad Arthur was coaching an illegally constructed team, which makes any success fraudulent, and any failure even more magnified. How would Madge go if we were able to sign players who had extra money tipped in by third-parties?

Brad Arthur has taken his Eels side to 3 finals in 7 seasons, which is less than half, and he managed a wooden spoon in the process. And yet, Eels stuck with him and eventually he's put together a side he can coach to the finals, even if they have no idea how to actually win finals matches.

The parallels to Madge are quite reasonable, with respect to taking over rabble and needing to be given a significant tenure to turn things around.

Ricky Stuart had the same experience - missed the finals 4/5 years on starting with Raiders (finished 10th 3 times), missed finals 3/4 years at Sharks, was dumped within 1 season by Eels. But he coached Roosters to several GFs and then got Canberra there. So is Stuart a good coach or not?

 

[bigsiro]

@jirskyr
If given time, the Brad Arthur comparison might be right...no idea...
Re Ricky Stuart, IMO the jury is still out on him as a coach (maybe it's personal bias, but he irritates me...)
The Roosters team he coached was a team that was already making finals and Grand Finals; a team stacked with all-time talent. They really should have won more.
Likewise his team at Canberra now is pretty damn good.

I'd like to think that if Madge had either of those teams now we wouldn't be talking about sacking him.

 

[jirskyr]

Hooper on his blog saying won't be gone this week but the drums are beating

Wow what a scoop, thanks Pooper, "drums are beating" he says.

 

[jirskyr]

I feel what Bennet has been able to get out of Benji, and how Maguire felt Benji might be the problem, which doesnt appear true, shows we need a coach that can see things more clearly and get the most out of the team. Also the fact no stars want to play for him.

That's silly. Parachute Benji into any top-tier side and for sure he'll have a periodic blinder. Has Benji been outstanding all year? Benji currently has 4 Dally M points, Doueihi has 5.

 

[Rugba]

Misleading
He did caretaker in 2012 and 2014 he was coach
2014 - took them to 10th after taking over from Stuart who got the spoon
2015th -12th
2016 which would be in line with madge tenure had them top 4 with salary cap debacle and they finished 14th
Then 2017 they made top 4
Whilst 2015 result went backwards they could see the improvements
whilst with madge the results are getting worse year on year (assuming this year remains at the level they are at ).

No I think the OP was on the money and you are making a misleading argument from the facts.

I agree 2012 doesn't count.

2014 was 10th. 2015 was 12th - worse. 2016 was 14th - worse again. If you give them back their deducted points in 2016 they would have come 8th on 30 points, not Top 4.

But then of course then you must address the fact that they played 2015 with salary cap breaches, took those into 2016 and were fined in March 2016. So Brad Arthur was coaching an illegally constructed team, which makes any success fraudulent, and any failure even more magnified. How would Madge go if we were able to sign players who had extra money tipped in by third-parties?

Brad Arthur has taken his Eels side to 3 finals in 7 seasons, which is less than half, and he managed a wooden spoon in the process. And yet, Eels stuck with him and eventually he's put together a side he can coach to the finals, even if they have no idea how to actually win finals matches.

The parallels to Madge are quite reasonable, with respect to taking over rabble and needing to be given a significant tenure to turn things around.

Ricky Stuart had the same experience - missed the finals 4/5 years on starting with Raiders (finished 10th 3 times), missed finals 3/4 years at Sharks, was dumped within 1 season by Eels. But he coached Roosters to several GFs and then got Canberra there. So is Stuart a good coach or not?

Don’t forget BA took over when eels had 2 spoons in a row compared to madge taking a side that had finished 9th and had been for years on the cusp of the 8.

Agree re the salary cap as that is the elephant in the room and also madge hampered by Cleary signings whereas BA benefited from Stuart moving players on .

My point is you can’t simply say BA didn’t make finals first 3 years as comparison as they was definite improvement in results and performance in those 3 years - can you really say that about madge especially considering he took over a side that had finished 9th ?

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Usually don't make posts like these, but the "sack Madge" storyline NEEDS to stop. The leaks about crisis meetings, players not wanting to play under Madge - they're coming from the same sources. People need to wise up and stop and think about why there are these leaks and what the possible agenda is behind them.

It is simple, the leaks come from the board in order to pass the blame on to the coach and take the focus away from them and their bad decisions. It has happened with all the previous coaches. If the team isn't performing, the board will leak stories to the media so the media and the fans run with the story and blame the coach. It makes it easier to sack the coach with the media and the fans backing while avoiding all blame.

The main shining lights to come out of the first 6 rounds are Stefano, Laurie, Simpkin, Luciano and Doueihi - all young guys bought the to club by Maguire. What more can Maguire do? Beyond that, what is any other coach currently available going to do.

Meanwhile, all these leaks and stories do is give underperforming players an excuse - instead at looking at their own performances they will just blame the coach. Once again, because the board are looking to shift blame and save face the fans, players and coach are the ones that suffer.

The blame rightly rests with the coach. We know it is a results based business.

Deflecting blame to the Board and players is unhelpful.

We know leaks occur when the end is near. I hope Maguire goes quickly and with dignity. No one wants this to drag out.

 

[TigerWest]

Usually don't make posts like these, but the "sack Madge" storyline NEEDS to stop. The leaks about crisis meetings, players not wanting to play under Madge - they're coming from the same sources. People need to wise up and stop and think about why there are these leaks and what the possible agenda is behind them.

It is simple, the leaks come from the board in order to pass the blame on to the coach and take the focus away from them and their bad decisions. It has happened with all the previous coaches. If the team isn't performing, the board will leak stories to the media so the media and the fans run with the story and blame the coach. It makes it easier to sack the coach with the media and the fans backing while avoiding all blame.

The main shining lights to come out of the first 6 rounds are Stefano, Laurie, Simpkin, Luciano and Doueihi - all young guys bought the to club by Maguire. What more can Maguire do? Beyond that, what is any other coach currently available going to do.

Meanwhile, all these leaks and stories do is give underperforming players an excuse - instead at looking at their own performances they will just blame the coach. Once again, because the board are looking to shift blame and save face the fans, players and coach are the ones that suffer.

The blame rightly rests with the coach. We know it is a results based business.

Deflecting blame to the Board and players is unhelpful.

We know leaks occur when the end is near. I hope Maguire goes quickly and with dignity. No one wants this to drag out.

Do you really believe a new coach will fix this and fix it quickly?

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Usually don't make posts like these, but the "sack Madge" storyline NEEDS to stop. The leaks about crisis meetings, players not wanting to play under Madge - they're coming from the same sources. People need to wise up and stop and think about why there are these leaks and what the possible agenda is behind them.

It is simple, the leaks come from the board in order to pass the blame on to the coach and take the focus away from them and their bad decisions. It has happened with all the previous coaches. If the team isn't performing, the board will leak stories to the media so the media and the fans run with the story and blame the coach. It makes it easier to sack the coach with the media and the fans backing while avoiding all blame.

The main shining lights to come out of the first 6 rounds are Stefano, Laurie, Simpkin, Luciano and Doueihi - all young guys bought the to club by Maguire. What more can Maguire do? Beyond that, what is any other coach currently available going to do.

Meanwhile, all these leaks and stories do is give underperforming players an excuse - instead at looking at their own performances they will just blame the coach. Once again, because the board are looking to shift blame and save face the fans, players and coach are the ones that suffer.

The blame rightly rests with the coach. We know it is a results based business.

Deflecting blame to the Board and players is unhelpful.

We know leaks occur when the end is near. I hope Maguire goes quickly and with dignity. No one wants this to drag out.

Do you really believe a new coach will fix this and fix it quickly?

Yes.

We urgently need a new coach with excellent people mgmt skills like Sheens, Bennett, Cleary or Morris.

The new coach should have the benefit of the salary cap that is available next year.

Maguire will not attract the quality players required.

I'd like to see a sustained improvement in our defence, attack and game plan. This does not mean winning but being highly competitive providing a platform from which to build upon. Instead we have regressed.

 

[Telltails]

Usually don't make posts like these, but the "sack Madge" storyline NEEDS to stop. The leaks about crisis meetings, players not wanting to play under Madge - they're coming from the same sources. People need to wise up and stop and think about why there are these leaks and what the possible agenda is behind them.

It is simple, the leaks come from the board in order to pass the blame on to the coach and take the focus away from them and their bad decisions. It has happened with all the previous coaches. If the team isn't performing, the board will leak stories to the media so the media and the fans run with the story and blame the coach. It makes it easier to sack the coach with the media and the fans backing while avoiding all blame.

The main shining lights to come out of the first 6 rounds are Stefano, Laurie, Simpkin, Luciano and Doueihi - all young guys bought the to club by Maguire. What more can Maguire do? Beyond that, what is any other coach currently available going to do.

Meanwhile, all these leaks and stories do is give underperforming players an excuse - instead at looking at their own performances they will just blame the coach. Once again, because the board are looking to shift blame and save face the fans, players and coach are the ones that suffer.

The blame rightly rests with the coach. We know it is a results based business.

Deflecting blame to the Board and players is unhelpful.

We know leaks occur when the end is near. I hope Maguire goes quickly and with dignity. No one wants this to drag out.

Do you really believe a new coach will fix this and fix it quickly?

Yes.

We urgently need a new coach with excellent people mgmt skills like Sheens, Bennett, Cleary or Morris.

The new coach should have the benefit of the salary cap that is available next year.

Maguire will not attract the quality players required.

I'd like to see a sustained improvement in our defence, attack and game plan. This does not mean winning but being highly competitive providing a platform from which to build upon. Instead we have regressed.

Maguire has zero leadership on the field with senior players that don't show an ounce of passion on the field for the club or the jersey - LL excluded. The young players have no one to lead and the player who has been there the longest and in a key position seems more than content to hang around and accept the coaching merry go round. Great example to set.
Last year we saw what a quality player in Harry Grant can do for a team. At 22 he had more desire than the lot of our blokes, and the players followed him. We all know what they should be doing but they don't have to because they know who will wear the blame for their lack of desire and it won't be them. That is what we are about.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

@jirskyr
If given time, the Brad Arthur comparison might be right...no idea...
Re Ricky Stuart, IMO the jury is still out on him as a coach (maybe it's personal bias, but he irritates me...)
The Roosters team he coached was a team that was already making finals and Grand Finals; a team stacked with all-time talent. They really should have won more.
Likewise his team at Canberra now is pretty damn good.

I'd like to think that if Madge had either of those teams now we wouldn't be talking about sacking him.

I think it’s absolute rubbish when people try to discredit the coach and put it down to a side being full of stars. The side full of stars still has to respond to the coach. We know how temperamental players can be. If they don’t like the coach, they know they can tank it. Stuart has had success everywhere he’s gone. You left out his time at the Sharks. He took them to a prelim final. You can’t discredit a coach just because you don’t like him. A lot on here like to discredit Cleary, putting the Panthers success last year down to Barrett. Yet, this year, the Panthers are still flying and Barrett’s team is sitting last. Outside of any season we have played finals, our greatest patch was probably the start of 2018, having lost the big 4, we started the year beating all the top 4 sides from the previous year. The club has regressed under Madge, 9th his first season, 11th last year, and almost certainly will be a bottom 4 this year. And his contract was renewed 🤦‍♂️

Unfortunately, I don’t think the club can punt him. If they do, the nest guy who comes in will be another coach with his hands tied. He’ll have Brooks, Musgrove, Noffa, AJ all locked in for several years. Not to mention having to find a role for Hastings. The excuses will be coming thick and fast that “this isn’t his team”. Then when it finally is, he’ll get punted and the next guy will walk in to a mess. It’s a never ending cycle. The club has got to take its medicine. They extended him, when it was unwarranted, now they can lay in their bed.

 

[The_Patriot]

Good balanced article regarding Hastings, tigers recruitment and Madge. A bit too long to post. Not expecting everyone to agree but good to hear every side of an argument

https://t.co/JMqZUCPDZ0

I hope everyone has a read of that.

Two schools of thought on NRL 360 last night were that 1 we lacked quality and leadership in the senior playing group the other 2 was a brain dead drunk guy saying that we had no strategic plan.

Club definitely has a plan and has been recruiting accordingly. However we really lack in that senior playing group. Our senior players are the problem.

I think ive come around to keeping Maguire but only if he has the guts to start dropping these senior guys.

First step should be looking around for a couple more players to add to the senior playing group. Need to move heaven and earth, even give up a young kid or two in a deal to get one.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Usually don't make posts like these, but the "sack Madge" storyline NEEDS to stop. The leaks about crisis meetings, players not wanting to play under Madge - they're coming from the same sources. People need to wise up and stop and think about why there are these leaks and what the possible agenda is behind them.

It is simple, the leaks come from the board in order to pass the blame on to the coach and take the focus away from them and their bad decisions. It has happened with all the previous coaches. If the team isn't performing, the board will leak stories to the media so the media and the fans run with the story and blame the coach. It makes it easier to sack the coach with the media and the fans backing while avoiding all blame.

The main shining lights to come out of the first 6 rounds are Stefano, Laurie, Simpkin, Luciano and Doueihi - all young guys bought the to club by Maguire. What more can Maguire do? Beyond that, what is any other coach currently available going to do.

Meanwhile, all these leaks and stories do is give underperforming players an excuse - instead at looking at their own performances they will just blame the coach. Once again, because the board are looking to shift blame and save face the fans, players and coach are the ones that suffer.

The blame rightly rests with the coach. We know it is a results based business.

Deflecting blame to the Board and players is unhelpful.

We know leaks occur when the end is near. I hope Maguire goes quickly and with dignity. No one wants this to drag out.

Do you really believe a new coach will fix this and fix it quickly?

Yes.

We urgently need a new coach with excellent people mgmt skills like Sheens, Bennett, Cleary or Morris.

The new coach should have the benefit of the salary cap that is available next year.

Maguire will not attract the quality players required.

I'd like to see a sustained improvement in our defence, attack and game plan. This does not mean winning but being highly competitive providing a platform from which to build upon. Instead we have regressed.

Maguire has zero leadership on the field with senior players that don't show an ounce of passion on the field for the club or the jersey - LL excluded. The young players have no one to lead and the player who has been there the longest and in a key position seems more than content to hang around and accept the coaching merry go round. Great example to set.
Last year we saw what a quality player in Harry Grant can do for a team. At 22 he had more desire than the lot of our blokes, and the players followed him. We all know what they should be doing but they don't have to because they know who will wear the blame for their lack of desire and it won't be them. That is what we are about.

We have regressed.

Our roster is better than results indicate.

Tamou was purchased by Maguire to lead.

The other player you refer to performed well under Cleary.

 

[bigsiro]

@GNR4LIFE I agree Cleary is a good coach. But do you think he would have taken this rabble any further? I don’t. Which only reinforces the notion that you need a good team to win - even with a good coach. But sometimes you don’t need such a good coach cos the players are that strong.

And btw Stuart did not have success wherever he went. Parra, rep level, even his Cronulla stint - but that was frought with disaster. Whatever.

 

[TillLindemann]

We urgently need a new coach with excellent people mgmt skills like Sheens, Bennett, Cleary or Morris.

The first we punted because we couldn't win, why go back to that?

The second doesn't want to come here, and only has a track record of success at star-studded clubs. At Newcastle he was abysmal. Coaching England and Great Britain he was a disgrace and was hounded out. If he came here we would get his Newcastle record, not his Broncos/Souths record.

The third we tried, he was useless here, we couldn't make the 8, he was the worst recruiter in club history, and ultimately the greatest dog in club history.

The fourth is a good bloke who has briefly done ok, but has no long term track record to judge.

None of the above will solve our issues.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

@GNR4LIFE I agree Cleary is a good coach. But do you think he would have taken this rabble any further? I don’t. Which only reinforces the notion that you need a good team to win - even with a good coach. But sometimes you don’t need such a good coach cos the players are that strong.

And btw Stuart did not have success wherever he went. Parra, rep level, even his Cronulla stint - but that was frought with disaster. Whatever.

He was only at Parra for a year. Whose to say he wouldn’t have had success there if he didn’t skip off down the Federal Highway. He won an Origin series in 05. The last year before Qld went on their run.

 

[rex2ce]

If Madge goes,sobeit,we move on with a new coach and hopefully he has success that atm we are not getting...
However,if he has results the same as Madge,do we judge him the same way and demand he gets sacked after 2/3 seasons with no finals and nothing but whinging,moaning and bellittling him as we have Madge..where does that leave us...IN THE SAME PLACE...
Madge has developed the junior pathway,signed talented young players mixed in with older players..he is trying to mend a broken club left shattered by sacked coaches a coach who was "on the bus'' and spent ridiculous amounts on players he wanted that would suit his coaching style and then jumped off the bus mid stream to find something better which he always had..his son at Panthers..
I can understand the disappointment by many on here,I also see that Madge can coach players to become NRL level players,Harry Grant comes to mind,Laurie was a great get just as we needed a fullback and is doing well...
We have a very young immature roster with experience mixed in,Im more than happy to see the end result after this season before supporting the "sack Madge"squad..
We also have a number of origin players,Tamou,Joe O,Mbye,Roberts and they are maybe not coping with the youth surrounding them,who really knows what mentally is happening with the team who are under pressure to perform,the seasoned players must react positively to their performances so as the younger ones become tougher NRL performers playing with heart and soul for the jersey and understanding what it takes to play at this level...I just dont think its all Madges fault,his staff,players as well all contribute to the lack of success we are having.....

Elevate Maguire to coaching director, bring in Flanagan or Morris , everyone saves face

 

[Guest]

Usually don't make posts like these, but the "sack Madge" storyline NEEDS to stop. The leaks about crisis meetings, players not wanting to play under Madge - they're coming from the same sources. People need to wise up and stop and think about why there are these leaks and what the possible agenda is behind them.

It is simple, the leaks come from the board in order to pass the blame on to the coach and take the focus away from them and their bad decisions. It has happened with all the previous coaches. If the team isn't performing, the board will leak stories to the media so the media and the fans run with the story and blame the coach. It makes it easier to sack the coach with the media and the fans backing while avoiding all blame.

The main shining lights to come out of the first 6 rounds are Stefano, Laurie, Simpkin, Luciano and Doueihi - all young guys bought the to club by Maguire. What more can Maguire do? Beyond that, what is any other coach currently available going to do.

Meanwhile, all these leaks and stories do is give underperforming players an excuse - instead at looking at their own performances they will just blame the coach. Once again, because the board are looking to shift blame and save face the fans, players and coach are the ones that suffer.

So what's being done about the board? I've heard they're a problem, as has everyone else on this forum. If we have all heard about it, surely other people have too. So what can Madge do about it? What can Pascoe do about it? Is anything going to be done about it?

The board may well be a bunch of wood ducks, but so are the players right now. Paul Gallen's article hit the nail on the head - we lack the mentality and attitude to defend our way out of trouble, and our attack...is boring and predictable. Whatever structures/plays the team are being coached clearly isn't working - and that's something else that needs to change. Never would have thought tackling a player could be so difficult but this crop of players are experts at it making the simple look difficult - and that's concerning.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

We urgently need a new coach with excellent people mgmt skills like Sheens, Bennett, Cleary or Morris.

The first we punted because we couldn't win, why go back to that?

The second doesn't want to come here, and only has a track record of success at star-studded clubs. At Newcastle he was abysmal. Coaching England and Great Britain he was a disgrace and was hounded out. If he came here we would get his Newcastle record, not his Broncos/Souths record.

The third we tried, he was useless here, we couldn't make the 8, he was the worst recruiter in club history, and ultimately the greatest dog in club history.

The fourth is a good bloke who has briefly done ok, but has no long term track record to judge.

None of the above will solve our issues.

That's not a particularly strong case for retention! You would retain him because there is no one else suitable?

There are suitable candidates, Morris being one.

 

[avocadoontoast]

We urgently need a new coach with excellent people mgmt skills like Sheens, Bennett, Cleary or Morris.

The first we punted because we couldn't win, why go back to that?

The second doesn't want to come here, and only has a track record of success at star-studded clubs. At Newcastle he was abysmal. Coaching England and Great Britain he was a disgrace and was hounded out. If he came here we would get his Newcastle record, not his Broncos/Souths record.

The third we tried, he was useless here, we couldn't make the 8, he was the worst recruiter in club history, and ultimately the greatest dog in club history.

The fourth is a good bloke who has briefly done ok, but has no long term track record to judge.

None of the above will solve our issues.

Sheens grew stale in the role after being here so long. Coming in fresh would be a different story. He’d improve the team immediately, and his style would suit the rule changes.

Cleary was not useless here, he had us playing some of the best football in years. Some of his signings like Mbye were playing well when he was here and Brooks form was excellent.

Morris took a team that had serious salary cap issues and took them to the 8 both years while playing a very good style of footy.

In his last 5 seasons Madge’s record is abysmal and he has been completely unable to adapt to the modern game. I struggle to think who wouldn’t be an upgrade at this stage.

 

[Guest]

I'm for keeping Madge but the narrative that tigers will have sacked 5 coaches in 9 years is hyperbole. Jason Taylor, Mick Potter and Tim Sheens were sacked. Madge would be the fourth coach sacked. Cleary left us, he wasn't sacked. Four coaches sacked in ten years would be a fair few, but it's not really more than Penrith, gold coast, Manly, Warriors, Sharks, Newcastle, Brisbane, Souths etc. Really not much different. So it's a bit of a false narrative.

Potter wasn’t sacked, just wasn’t extended

Stating something factual now gets downvoted on here. Pathetic

Indeed. It's one particular individual who likes pressing the button when facts are presented.