Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[jirskyr]


Did they have coffee together, or did Dummass just have coffee in an entirely separate context?

 

[Needaname]

My other concern with Madge is whether he is the coach that will improve the players in what is basically a young squad.

His record at souths
Year Record
2012 16w-8l
2013 18w-6l
2014 15w-9l
2015 13w-11l
2016 9w-15l
2017 9w 15l

I still have the view he fired up a squad the John Lang had built and slowly took it backwards. Unfortunately what he inherited here was not as good, but it is getting worse.

Madge brought in most of the players who Souths currently rely on for their success - Reynolds, Walker, Murray, Johnston, George and Tom Burgess, Damien Cook. He inherited Sam Burgess and Inglis.

Reynolds was already part of the junior system prior.
He inherited Sutton as well.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Thought I had better check this thread after seeing Madge trending.

.

 

[BZN]

Tigers players over 45 maches: Twal (82), Mikaele (54), Liddle (57), Luch (79), Garner (54), Douiehi (64), MCK (88).
Total = 7
Over 100: Tamou (284), Jet (162), Packer (184), Ofa (123), Nofo (155), Mbye (150), Maumolo (108), BJ (225), Brooks (164),
Total = 9

Who in the >100 club is playing well? As I said Tamou is OK 6/10, Ofa I think 7/10, Brooks 7.5/10, rest hopeless - that's coming on 1000 games of experience with poor 2021 output. Maumolo gets a pass because he's just arrived.

The 50+ match club haven't really kicked on - Twal is alright, Mikaele inconsistent, Liddle has only recently strung matches together. Luch is our best attacker and worst defender, Garner is middling (how did he already get to 54 matches?), Douiehi good, MCK career benchie.

So Madge not getting output from these experienced players. They are the backbone of the side. He inherited almost all of them, but you would also hope he could coach a good number of them to play to their best ability.

However I'll argue that the "best" output of these 50+ match players has never really been that good. Guys like Mikaele, Garner, MCK, Packer, their career-best football has been short-lived, a year at most, so it can't only be Madge as a coach. E.g. you'd hope Madge could get the best out of Luch, and for a good while that has been the case, but also St George didn't let him go because he was an easy player to get results out of.

Barely any of the experienced players are hand-selected juniors - they are almost entirely cast-offs and some-risk players that Tigers hope to turn around. Brooks is one, Twal arguably was poached, so was Luch. The rest were basically released / unwanted by former clubs. I don't know if that is specifically on Madge, that his most experienced players could only be bought off clubs that didn't want them any longer, and he doesn't have a core of experienced club juniors.

By comparison to Melbourne Storm, best team going around.

Storm 2021 players over 45 matches: Hughes (75), Jacks (48), G Jennings (49), Kamikamica (49), Olam (54), Cheese (78), Reimis Smith (65), Paps (48).
Total = 8
Over 100: JAC (121), NAS (138), J Bromwich (266), K Bromwich (184), Finucane (212), Kaufusi (146), Munster (144), Welch (110).
Total = 8

Of the +100 club, 6/8 were Melbourne Storm junior selections, 2 were head-hunted from other clubs. Of the ~50s, about half are juniors/debutants, 1 head-hunted (Paps).

Of the +100 players, 100% are rep players. So Bellamy is getting very good value out of his experience, and his highest paid / most experienced players are also the best performers.

So is that entirely the coach, or does he have some luxury of having head-hunted or junior-base players forming the core of his experienced group? Aren't many rejects from other clubs there, although of course you take into account that Storm are so successful they don't really need to look at rejects.

Storm's junior players also have been able to wait patiently and come through a successful system, mentored by experienced rep-level players (in some cases, hall-of-fame players).

Whether or not Madge has the skills, he doesn't have the luxury of that back-history that the Storm have, both in terms of smart long-term recruitment, junior development in a successful environment, no need to sign rejects, top-level experienced players whose best football is elite-level. Madge's most experienced players have almost never been elite-level, not under any coach or any club.

Now Bellamy developed all that himself, so you can't wipe it aside as being an achievement. BUT, when Bellamy joined Storm had played finals 3 times already, missed it twice (years before him), were being bankrolled by News Ltd, not allowed to fail/linger due to NRL multi-city strategy. Bellamy inherited Matt Orford, Billy Slater, Cam Smith, Scott Hill, Rodney Howe, Matt Geyer, Robbie Kearns, Stephen Kearney.

A year later he had Cronk, a year later Inglis - they were both already in the Norths Devils system (Storm feeder) when Bellamy arrived. Any of these named Storm players have played at a high level at other clubs too, so it's not just the coach, they are inherently good in other systems.

And within 8 seasons, Bellyache's side were done for systematic salary cap cheating, which tells you after his first several seasons, they conspired to set up and retain an illegal level of players, to either hold onto experienced elites or experienced juniors, i.e. keep the leadership whilst not losing the new rep-quality juniors.

This isn't to defend Madge, just contrasting the rosters and where the rosters came from.

Very well researched and written @jirskyr

 

[avocadoontoast]


Did they have coffee together, or did Dummass just have coffee in an entirely separate context?

I can confirm he definitely had a coffee at some stage in the off-season, but I can’t confirm if it was with Madge or alone. I’ll report back when I find out more.

 

[Needaname]


Did they have coffee together, or did Dummass just have coffee in an entirely separate context?

I can confirm he definitely had a coffee at some stage in the off-season, but I can’t confirm if it was with Madge or alone. I’ll report back when I find out more.

How good is coffee in the off-season ?

 

[avocadoontoast]


Did they have coffee together, or did Dummass just have coffee in an entirely separate context?

I can confirm he definitely had a coffee at some stage in the off-season, but I can’t confirm if it was with Madge or alone. I’ll report back when I find out more.

How good is coffee in the off-season ?

It’s the best. Especially with a little biscotti on the side. Yum.

 

[BZN]

I have heard on numerous occassions in pre match comments by Maguire that the team has trained well and practiced what they have to do and then they come out on to the field and play like headless chooks with no pattern / system to defence and little to no planning.

So, doesnt the truth then have to be that on the field of battle they are falling apart under pressure? Could it be that the leadership group isnt leading by example, the captain is not inspiring them (or not on the field), and the halfback is not organising, or most worryingly, the team is dogging it. While it is true there are many young-uns in the 17, there are also enough experienced old-uns to be able to take the pressure and help the others. Yet, they are not.

If they are doing totally opposite to what has been practised on training the culprit players are in the wrong and should be sacked. Surely contracts have in them undertaking coaches instructions. If the players think they n=know better tit cant go on.

Im all for replacing Maguire if we can find someone better, but the players behind all this should not, cannot, escape the axe. If they do get a new coach, they would have to accept the direction the club is going in and not go through another massive rebuild.

Questions are being asked of the coach about why he is reporting to the club that training is going well but that is not transferring to gameday.

That’s an interesting one. It feels like we have a pretty disconnected group which I’d imagine would also be fairly obvious through the week. Do people from the senior admin not go to training and watch? What are they doing? Certainly not winning in their meetings with player managers.

Going and watching training and understanding what is happening, whether the goals of the session are being achieved, if players are hitting data etc are different things. I don't expect Pascoe to be able to go to training and determine of the training session was successful. I would also be disappointed if he is spending all day at training.

With the right experience it’s easy to tell the difference between a really connected team and one that’s got issues. I think everything would just be humming if you watched Melbourne train. I imagine some of our fellas would stroll in and probably not even acknowledge each other. That’s how they’re playing anyway.

Yes but that is not the senior management role to see that, it is Madges role. That is why he is being asked those questions.

This is where we disagree mate, from top down I’d want football nous. They’re on big money and what exactly are they doing to win us games?

At this point in time our senior management isn't even allowed at training.

Fair point, but if they were I’d expect them to show an interest, obviously not down there every day with flags, but get down there and experience the playing culture.

I'm sure they do, I had an invitation to head to training with Hartigan, unfortunately I didn't get the chance to get down there.

So how come you're in a position to be invited to training by Hartigan @cochise ?

 

[jirskyr]

My other concern with Madge is whether he is the coach that will improve the players in what is basically a young squad.

His record at souths
Year Record
2012 16w-8l
2013 18w-6l
2014 15w-9l
2015 13w-11l
2016 9w-15l
2017 9w 15l

I still have the view he fired up a squad the John Lang had built and slowly took it backwards. Unfortunately what he inherited here was not as good, but it is getting worse.

Madge brought in most of the players who Souths currently rely on for their success - Reynolds, Walker, Murray, Johnston, George and Tom Burgess, Damien Cook. He inherited Sam Burgess and Inglis.

Reynolds was already part of the junior system prior.
He inherited Sutton as well.

Debuted him though.

 

[BZN]

I have heard on numerous occassions in pre match comments by Maguire that the team has trained well and practiced what they have to do and then they come out on to the field and play like headless chooks with no pattern / system to defence and little to no planning.

So, doesnt the truth then have to be that on the field of battle they are falling apart under pressure? Could it be that the leadership group isnt leading by example, the captain is not inspiring them (or not on the field), and the halfback is not organising, or most worryingly, the team is dogging it. While it is true there are many young-uns in the 17, there are also enough experienced old-uns to be able to take the pressure and help the others. Yet, they are not.

If they are doing totally opposite to what has been practised on training the culprit players are in the wrong and should be sacked. Surely contracts have in them undertaking coaches instructions. If the players think they n=know better tit cant go on.

Im all for replacing Maguire if we can find someone better, but the players behind all this should not, cannot, escape the axe. If they do get a new coach, they would have to accept the direction the club is going in and not go through another massive rebuild.

Questions are being asked of the coach about why he is reporting to the club that training is going well but that is not transferring to gameday.

That’s an interesting one. It feels like we have a pretty disconnected group which I’d imagine would also be fairly obvious through the week. Do people from the senior admin not go to training and watch? What are they doing? Certainly not winning in their meetings with player managers.

Going and watching training and understanding what is happening, whether the goals of the session are being achieved, if players are hitting data etc are different things. I don't expect Pascoe to be able to go to training and determine of the training session was successful. I would also be disappointed if he is spending all day at training.

With the right experience it’s easy to tell the difference between a really connected team and one that’s got issues. I think everything would just be humming if you watched Melbourne train. I imagine some of our fellas would stroll in and probably not even acknowledge each other. That’s how they’re playing anyway.

Yes but that is not the senior management role to see that, it is Madges role. That is why he is being asked those questions.

This is where we disagree mate, from top down I’d want football nous. They’re on big money and what exactly are they doing to win us games?

At this point in time our senior management isn't even allowed at training.

Fair point, but if they were I’d expect them to show an interest, obviously not down there every day with flags, but get down there and experience the playing culture.

I'm sure they do, I had an invitation to head to training with Hartigan, unfortunately I didn't get the chance to get down there.

Bro, they should put you on the payroll.
Official club employee: Cochise.

When Pascoe showed us the COE plans, I asked which office is was mine.

And he laughed at you, not with you.

Maybe Cochise can get on the member committee like the pom was on.

Be good to have some one from the forum representative us at that level.

He is on the member committee mate, read The Ambush thread.

It's a big thread...

But that makes sense.
I'll try and keep more up to date with what the forum lads are up to.
?

[/QUOTE]

That way you can keep me up to date :joy_cat:

 

[cochise]


That is our very own @boonboon calling him out lol

 

[Needaname]


Did they have coffee together, or did Dummass just have coffee in an entirely separate context?

I can confirm he definitely had a coffee at some stage in the off-season, but I can’t confirm if it was with Madge or alone. I’ll report back when I find out more.

How good is coffee in the off-season ?

It’s the best. Especially with a little biscotti on the side. Yum.

Now your talking!

 

[BZN]

were done for systematic salary cap cheating, which tells you after his first several seasons, they conspired to set up and retain an illegal level of players

A brilliant analysis. BTW - How on Earth did Bellamy keep his job after the cap rorting? I mean do you think he just assumed that with Smith Slater Cronk Inglis etc he was blessed that they would play for peanuts?

"brilliant analysis" thank you @LeichhardtTiger. They're the words I was looking for re @jirskyr's post.

 

[Needaname]

My other concern with Madge is whether he is the coach that will improve the players in what is basically a young squad.

His record at souths
Year Record
2012 16w-8l
2013 18w-6l
2014 15w-9l
2015 13w-11l
2016 9w-15l
2017 9w 15l

I still have the view he fired up a squad the John Lang had built and slowly took it backwards. Unfortunately what he inherited here was not as good, but it is getting worse.

Madge brought in most of the players who Souths currently rely on for their success - Reynolds, Walker, Murray, Johnston, George and Tom Burgess, Damien Cook. He inherited Sam Burgess and Inglis.

Reynolds was already part of the junior system prior.
He inherited Sutton as well.

Debuted him though.

I give you that. I think he was earmarked the year prior but suffered an ACL before the season started.

 

[WeststigsRdaBest]

I love Madge and will be disappointed if we part ways...really wanted him to bring us out of the hole but maybe we are just to too weak atm for his style...I reallly think we need to go for a coach with a great reputation and who players love...my two ideal options would be Wayne or filter...both would help us with attracting the right players

 

[cochise]

I love Madge and will be disappointed if we part ways...really wanted him to bring us out of the hole but maybe we are just to too weak atm for his style...I reallly think we need to go for a coach with a great reputation and who players love...my two ideal options would be Wayne or filter...both would help us with attracting the right players

NOOOOOO to both

 

[the_third]


Did they have coffee together, or did Dummass just have coffee in an entirely separate context?

I can confirm he definitely had a coffee at some stage in the off-season, but I can’t confirm if it was with Madge or alone. I’ll report back when I find out more.

How good is coffee in the off-season ?

It’s the best. Especially with a little biscotti on the side. Yum.

that was my hobby - bought a roaster.

 

[the_third]

I love Madge and will be disappointed if we part ways...really wanted him to bring us out of the hole but maybe we are just to too weak atm for his style...I reallly think we need to go for a coach with a great reputation and who players love...my two ideal options would be Wayne or filter...both would help us with attracting the right players

NOOOOOO to both

ciraldo or Flanagan?

 

[WT2K]

I love Madge and will be disappointed if we part ways...really wanted him to bring us out of the hole but maybe we are just to too weak atm for his style...I reallly think we need to go for a coach with a great reputation and who players love...my two ideal options would be Wayne or filter...both would help us with attracting the right players

NOOOOOO to both


ciraldo or Flanagan?

Need a new poll

 

[BZN]

If any player is dissatisfied with the coach for any reason then he should raise it privately with Madge. OR put up their hand and ask for a release from their contract because the majority of on field performances this year are totally unacceptable. If anyone took offence with MM's post match comments after the diabolical farce V Rabbitohs then they should give it up now. The Club and players need to listen to constructive criticisms and act on it. Maguire's brief is to pull the WT out of their mediocrity and deliver longer term success. The Club needs to stick solid with the Coach and remove the rebellious under performers as soon as possible.

[/QUOTE]