Milton Friedman on Socialism and Capitalism

[colmcd]

Gotta have the beet.

Call a system whatever one wants, but nobody, even a CEO should receive more than twenty times the renumeration of that which their lowest paid worker is allowed. People at that level used to be taxed at higher rates, in some cases much higher, but the world has gone mad in my lifetime with some getting FIVE HUNDRED times more than their colleagues and governments creating tax havens.

Wealth can only be gained by taking off our fellow man at some level, so obscene wealth is evil. Philanthropy is one way of balancing things and I applaud those that participate in it, the other is the governments doing their part.

Now that is smart.

I know in some islamic states that they follow the 40 to 1 rule from the Quran. It basically states that the highest paid worker cannot be paid more then 40 times the lowest paid worker. I.e. so if your lowest paid worker is earning 10,000, your highest worker is earning at most 400,000\. If your lowest paid is earning 40,000 then your highest is earning $1,600,000….

Forget the Religious side of this, it is a damn good idea. I remember hearing Joyce was getting an 11 Million dollar bonus, and for what? Basically cutting wages across the board at Qantas. This concentrates money and resources in the hands of the few, not the many. It means your working class get further into debt, your millionaires own more homes, your plebs stay plebs.

If the great management idea is "lets cut our workers wages by $5,000 each, I pocket $4000 from each worker as my bonus and return $1,000 per worker to the shareholder." Why should we indulge this.

Greed is good, was meant to be ironic. Sadly people took it literally. :brick:

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

:master: brilliant Thomas Sowell :master:

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

:master: brilliant Thomas Sowell :master:

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”

Depends on what you mean by earned? By effort? By investment? By speculation? By good fortune? By immorality?

 

[colmcd]

:master: brilliant Thomas Sowell :master:

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”

Let me clarify this for you.

If you are a plumber and you spend 8 hours fixing a persons pipes. You have performed Labour in exchange for work. There is your travel costs, your materials, your labour, etc. No problem you have earned this money.

If however you are Senator Arthur Sinodinos, you make $200,000 from sitting on a company where you only have to do "two weeks worth of work", that's CRAP! When Michael Costa leaves because this organisation is too dodgy… that's crap. When you make a stack of money managing HP and telling all workers that they have to take a 5% paycut, to get your 20 Million dollar bonus... That's crap.

That's crap, because often when that is done, the company goes from stable -> instable and collapses. But the magic market is meant to resolve this somehow via the "invisible hand".

Some people do hard work, and they get a little more. That's fine. If you do a good job, you get rewarded.
However in many professions, you can cheat! Cheating is what we don't want, it's not Earning money. It's getting lots and lots of money quickly that you probably did very little to earn.

Cheating is "Greed". Cheating is buying a medical patent and charging $600 per pill instead of $12 to make yourself stacks of money. Cheating should not be encouraged or rewarded, but extreme capitalism does both.

That's why I think Milton Friedman is an idiot. He encourages a market without rules, without laws, without a guy saying "Why does that hard working bricklayer have to pay you $40 per job as a finders fee." It's quick greedy money that is not earned. It makes our economy weak, our lazy spoilt North shore brats extremely rich and our entire system unstable.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I could use a hamburger about now..

Is the hamburger capitalist or socialist?

Either/or…as long as it has beetroot on it...

Socialist. Beetrot has no place on a burger.

 

[stryker]

I could use a hamburger about now..

Is the hamburger capitalist or socialist?

Either/or…as long as it has beetroot on it...

Socialist. Beetrot has no place on a burger.

Disagree. Beetroot is a must. Pineapple is crook though.

 

[TCL]

Is the hamburger capitalist or socialist?

Either/or…as long as it has beetroot on it...

Socialist. Beetrot has no place on a burger.

Disagree. Beetroot is a must. Pineapple is crook though.

A burger isn't a burger unless it has Beetroot.

 

[FreddyK]

Economics then politics then religion …. Godwin's law postulates that as internet arguments get longer someone will compare another to Hitler. Are we there yet? Has anyone called another Nazi?

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

Economics then politics then religion …. Godwin's law postulates that as internet arguments get longer someone will compare another to Hitler. Are we there yet? Has anyone called another Nazi?

I have always being suspicious of stryker - I think he would put the bludging and tree-hugging hippies in a concentration camp, sort of work will set them free!

 

[Tim Sheens]

Economics then politics then religion …. Godwin's law postulates that as internet arguments get longer someone will compare another to Hitler. Are we there yet? Has anyone called another Nazi?

Politics, economics, religion and war are all intertwined, so not a surprise that it occurs.

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

Is the hamburger capitalist or socialist?

Either/or…as long as it has beetroot on it...

Socialist. Beetrot has no place on a burger.

Disagree. Beetroot is a must. Pineapple is crook though.

You can't be from the Deep North and be against pineapple. Their biggest mistake was when the Cairns brewery was taken over by CUB - Cairns old drop was the best in OZ I reckon.

 

[colmcd]

Either/or…as long as it has beetroot on it...

Socialist. Beetrot has no place on a burger.

Disagree. Beetroot is a must. Pineapple is crook though.

You can't be from the Deep North and be against pineapple. Their biggest mistake was when the Cairns brewery was taken over by CUB - Cairns old drop was the best in OZ I reckon.

The Beetroot must be a little controlled. Some people put 2 or 3 slices on a Burger, that's horrible… It turns the Burger Purple... You get one slice, wiggle it to get rid of extra juice and then put it in the center.

Now Pineapple is awesome. Doubt me, goto Oporto's and ask for an O'tropo. Pineapple, Bacon, cheese, Chicken, it all works wonders in my mouth. I would not put Pineapple with Beef though.

 

[stryker]

Economics then politics then religion …. Godwin's law postulates that as internet arguments get longer someone will compare another to Hitler. Are we there yet? Has anyone called another Nazi?

I have always being suspicious of stryker - I think he would put the bludging and tree-hugging hippies in a concentration camp, sort of work will set them free!

Not just hippies, generational welfare recipients as well.

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

Economics then politics then religion …. Godwin's law postulates that as internet arguments get longer someone will compare another to Hitler. Are we there yet? Has anyone called another Nazi?

I have always being suspicious of stryker - I think he would put the bludging and tree-hugging hippies in a concentration camp, sort of work will set them free!

Not just hippies, generational welfare recipients as well.

I did not know they existed until came across a few years ago. Leave unpaid bills everywhere, drops another kid to stay on pension, gets help with accommo when gets turfed out, too lazy to take rubbish out.

 

[Abraham]

Let me clarify this for you.

If you are a plumber and you spend 8 hours fixing a persons pipes. You have performed Labour in exchange for work. There is your travel costs, your materials, your labour, etc. No problem you have earned this money.

If however you are Senator Arthur Sinodinos, you make $200,000 from sitting on a company where you only have to do "two weeks worth of work", that's CRAP! When Michael Costa leaves because this organisation is too dodgy… that's crap. When you make a stack of money managing HP and telling all workers that they have to take a 5% paycut, to get your 20 Million dollar bonus... That's crap.

Your discussing Crony Capitalism here, which is not capitalism, but a behind-the-scenes partnership between Government and the Private Sector to further their own agendas.

Its exactly the opposite of the principals of Capitalism.

The top end of town lining its own pockets by partnering with Government is to a large extent why we had the GFC, and its what gives actual capitalism a bad wrap.
\

That's crap, because often when that is done, the company goes from stable -instable and collapses. But the magic market is meant to resolve this somehow via the "invisible hand".

Your dead wrong.

The "invisible hand" does not resolve anything magically for the company in your example.

When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management, thats the market at play. The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind.

In socialism though, the dodgy business is usually government run, and the consumer has no other option but to keep it afloat because there is no competition.

See how that works?

 

[JD Tiger]

When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management, thats the market at play. The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind.

Sounds good in theory, but how about in real life when most if not all of the big companies are dishonest, greedy, take short cuts, and only in it to increase their own profits at the expense of everything else around them including people and the environment? Those companies don't fall, they don't collapse. They only grow stronger.

Market at play? Markets tend towards monopolies, why else do they try to enforce that monopolies don't occur. Please, actual capitalism is insidious, giving people the illusion of equality. Equality of opportunity? Equality of opportunity for everyone to be a slave, where you have no choice but to succumb to consumerism, where everything is assigned monetary values with not even the roof over your head being safe.

Obviously actual socialism has the same problems, people in power get greedy and the whole thing doesn't work. Solution? If I knew I would be doing it.

 

[Abraham]

When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management, thats the market at play. The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind.

Sounds good in theory, but how about in real life when most if not all of the big companies are dishonest, greedy, take short cuts, and only in it to increase their own profits at the expense of everything else around them including people and the environment? Those companies don't fall, they don't collapse. They only grow stronger.

Market at play? Markets tend towards monopolies, why else do they try to enforce that monopolies don't occur. Please, actual capitalism is insidious, giving people the illusion of equality. Equality of opportunity? Equality of opportunity for everyone to be a slave, where you have no choice but to succumb to consumerism, where everything is assigned monetary values with not even the roof over your head being safe.

Obviously actual socialism has the same problems, people in power get greedy and the whole thing doesn't work. Solution? If I knew I would be doing it.

For everybody talking about dishonestly and law breaking, understand that Capitalism is not Laizzes Fair economics or anarcho-capitalism.

Government has the specific role in a Capitalist market of ensuring that laws are not broken. When the Government teams up with the Private Sector and turns a blind eye to the laws they are supposed to be enforcing, this is 'crony capitalism'. Don't mistake it for Capitalism.

I've mentioned this a few times now.

Finally, you obviously don't understand what Equality of Opportunity means if you disagree with it, or equate it to slavery.

Equality of opportunity is what allows migrants or lower income individuals to work hard and eventually become multi-millionaires, in turn employing other migrants or low income individuals who hope to do the same. There is nothing wrong with a man backing himself, working hard, and being successful. It is what our country is based on, and should be celebrated. This is literally impossible under socialist economics.

 

[JD Tiger]

Finally, you obviously don't understand what Equality of Opportunity means if you disagree with it, or equate it to slavery.

Equality of opportunity is what allows migrants or lower income individuals to work hard and eventually become multi-millionaires, in turn employing other migrants or low income individuals who hope to do the same. There is nothing wrong with a man backing himself, working hard, and being successful. It is what our country is based on, and should be celebrated. This is literally impossible under socialist economics.

Equality of opportunity to do what? To strive to be person who has the mostest? I equate it to slavery because there's no choice, a person is stuck in a system where everything has monetary values placed upon it. They can either afford certain things or they cannot, but they have to live in a society where those hierarchal values exist. Options are few and far between.

Please don't make statements saying a person obviously doesn't understand something, for how can you know what another person understands? It may be evident to you that something you said seemingly was not understood by another the way you intended it, but that doesn't mean that they don't understand it. They could have understood it to mean something different. That's the essence of capitalism right there, that difference equates to one being better than the other. Two things being different doesn't equate to one being better.

But hey, everything that I know is absolutely true, true for me that is. Could be absolute rubbish for everyone else on the planet.

 

[Abraham]

Equality of opportunity to do what? To strive to be person who has the mostest? I equate it to slavery because there's no choice, a person is stuck in a system where everything has monetary values placed upon it. They can either afford certain things or they cannot, but they have to live in a society where those hierarchal values exist. Options are few and far between.

Please don't make statements saying a person obviously doesn't understand something, for how can you know what another person understands? It may be evident to you that something you said seemingly was not understood by another the way you intended it, but that doesn't mean that they don't understand it. They could have understood it to mean something different. That's the essence of capitalism right there, that difference equates to one being better than the other. Two things being different doesn't equate to one being better.

Equality of opportunity to do what???

The opportunity to work hard, the opportunity to be a bum, the opportunity to go as far as your hard work and capabilities will take you, in any field that you choose. In other words, it equates to freedom.
It is therefore, the fairest system possible.

Socialism on the other hand steals from the man who works hard, and gives his income to someone who decided to not work as hard. That is theft. Its no wonder socialism is only championed by career students and over the hill hippies … why work hard when someone else can do it for you?

Now we can debate what system is best based on our own interpretations of what 'best' is. For me the best system is one that champions personal responsibility and a man's (or woman's) ability to be rewarded based on their own decision making and hard work.

Remember, income mobility is a historical outcome of Capitalism, not Socialism.

I don't know what's important for you. But i would suggest that for most people, the system that rewards hard work and punishes the opposite, is the best system.

But hey, everything that I know is absolutely true, true for me that is. Could be absolute rubbish for everyone else on the planet.

Truth is truth, its not subjective.

As the saying goes … everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts.

 

[colmcd]

Let me clarify this for you.

If you are a plumber and you spend 8 hours fixing a persons pipes. You have performed Labour in exchange for work. There is your travel costs, your materials, your labour, etc. No problem you have earned this money.

If however you are Senator Arthur Sinodinos, you make $200,000 from sitting on a company where you only have to do "two weeks worth of work", that's CRAP! When Michael Costa leaves because this organisation is too dodgy… that's crap. When you make a stack of money managing HP and telling all workers that they have to take a 5% paycut, to get your 20 Million dollar bonus... That's crap.

Your discussing Crony Capitalism here, which is not capitalism, but a behind-the-scenes partnership between Government and the Private Sector to further their own agendas.

Its exactly the opposite of the principals of Capitalism.

Bingo. Opposite of the principles/design and EXACTLY what happens in real life. That's why economists believe real life is Wrong and their theories are Correct.

You see people have a quick way to make money and a slow way. What you are saying is that given infinite time these companies eventually collapse and people learn the very hard way to only deal with good traders….

You are not a highlander, you will have real risks and real losses. You will get ripped off, cheated, buy a product without knowing everything about it.

Those who want to make a quick buck... Will.