Milton Friedman on Socialism and Capitalism

[Abraham]

Bingo. Opposite of the principles/design and EXACTLY what happens in real life. That's why economists believe real life is Wrong and their theories are Correct.

You see people have a quick way to make money and a slow way. What you are saying is that given infinite time these companies eventually collapse and people learn the very hard way to only deal with good traders….

You are not a highlander, you will have real risks and real losses. You will get ripped off, cheated, buy a product without knowing everything about it.

Those who want to make a quick buck... Will.

To remove the human facet of any system, is to be left with simple bare bones economic theory.

The same human impact applies to literally every economic system under the sun.

That doesn't get the conversation anywhere.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Thread beds more covfefe

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

quote: Thomas Sowell :master:
"You can't stop people from saying bad things about you. All you can do is make them liars."

 

[colmcd]

That's crap, because often when that is done, the company goes from stable -instable and collapses. But the magic market is meant to resolve this somehow via the "invisible hand".

Your dead wrong.

The "invisible hand" does not resolve anything magically for the company in your example.

When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management, thats the market at play. The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind.

In socialism though, the dodgy business is usually government run, and the consumer has no other option but to keep it afloat because there is no competition.

See how that works?

Again, Capitalism and Socialism suck, Extreme Capitalism and Extreme socialism suck more then the Newcastle Knights.

Now lets look at your quote closely…

"When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management," --ok Poor management has left the building with a 22 year old blonde receptionist and a wad of money....

"The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier, who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind".
-- if they have any money left.
Conmen can thrive in this environment. You have a large pool of customers and they can just underquote and hop around.
Often things like a house, superannuation, etc you only have 1 bite of the cherry.
Automobiles are another great example. We have seen some absolutely unreliable car companies come on the scene and it has taken at least 40 years to realise which manufacturers are crap. People have now just started to switch to Toyota's because of their reliability, Honda's are still very in vogue even though their quality is going downhill rapidly. With cars, you will never know if you have a good reliable car till you drive it around for awhile.

Consumers take TIME. They take time to figure out who is good and who is bad. Sometimes they can find out quickly, like with a bad Barista they know immediately. Other examples they can take ages to figure out something is dodgy/shonky/causes brain damage in the next generation.

As Keynes says "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again." You may very well get to know every vagabond dealer in our society when you hit 100, however they will have taken all your money by the time you gain that knowledge.

 

[Abraham]

Again, Capitalism and Socialism suck, Extreme Capitalism and Extreme socialism suck more then the Newcastle Knights.

Now lets look at your quote closely…

"When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management," --ok Poor management has left the building with a 22 year old blonde receptionist and a wad of money....

"The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier, who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind".
-- if they have any money left.
Conmen can thrive in this environment. You have a large pool of customers and they can just underquote and hop around.
Often things like a house, superannuation, etc you only have 1 bite of the cherry.
Automobiles are another great example. We have seen some absolutely unreliable car companies come on the scene and it has taken at least 40 years to realise which manufacturers are crap. People have now just started to switch to Toyota's because of their reliability, Honda's are still very in vogue even though their quality is going downhill rapidly. With cars, you will never know if you have a good reliable car till you drive it around for awhile.

Consumers take TIME. They take time to figure out who is good and who is bad. Sometimes they can find out quickly, like with a bad Barista they know immediately. Other examples they can take ages to figure out something is dodgy/shonky/causes brain damage in the next generation.

As Keynes says "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again." You may very well get to know every vagabond dealer in our society when you hit 100, however they will have taken all your money by the time you gain that knowledge.

:laughing:

Seems like your gripe is with unscrupulous people.

Not once above have you mentioned an actual argument against Capitalism, just that bad people do bad things.

That's not Capitalism, that's life.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Again, Capitalism and Socialism suck, Extreme Capitalism and Extreme socialism suck more then the Newcastle Knights.

Now lets look at your quote closely…

"When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management," --ok Poor management has left the building with a 22 year old blonde receptionist and a wad of money....

"The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier, who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind".
-- if they have any money left.
Conmen can thrive in this environment. You have a large pool of customers and they can just underquote and hop around.
Often things like a house, superannuation, etc you only have 1 bite of the cherry.
Automobiles are another great example. We have seen some absolutely unreliable car companies come on the scene and it has taken at least 40 years to realise which manufacturers are crap. People have now just started to switch to Toyota's because of their reliability, Honda's are still very in vogue even though their quality is going downhill rapidly. With cars, you will never know if you have a good reliable car till you drive it around for awhile.

Consumers take TIME. They take time to figure out who is good and who is bad. Sometimes they can find out quickly, like with a bad Barista they know immediately. Other examples they can take ages to figure out something is dodgy/shonky/causes brain damage in the next generation.

As Keynes says "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again." You may very well get to know every vagabond dealer in our society when you hit 100, however they will have taken all your money by the time you gain that knowledge.

:laughing:

Seems like your gripe is with unscrupulous people.

Not once above have you mentioned an actual argument against Capitalism, just that bad people do bad things.

That's not Capitalism, that's life.

No system is 100% compatible with the human condition. Any system will see people seek out to exploit and profit from with as little effort as possible.

 

[colmcd]

Again, Capitalism and Socialism suck, Extreme Capitalism and Extreme socialism suck more then the Newcastle Knights.

Now lets look at your quote closely…

"When this Company comes crashing down due to its incompetence/dishonesty/poor management," --ok Poor management has left the building with a 22 year old blonde receptionist and a wad of money....

"The consumer then moves its business elsewhere to another supplier, who is not dishonest or poorly managed, leaving the dodgy company behind".
-- if they have any money left.
Conmen can thrive in this environment. You have a large pool of customers and they can just underquote and hop around.
Often things like a house, superannuation, etc you only have 1 bite of the cherry.
Automobiles are another great example. We have seen some absolutely unreliable car companies come on the scene and it has taken at least 40 years to realise which manufacturers are crap. People have now just started to switch to Toyota's because of their reliability, Honda's are still very in vogue even though their quality is going downhill rapidly. With cars, you will never know if you have a good reliable car till you drive it around for awhile.

Consumers take TIME. They take time to figure out who is good and who is bad. Sometimes they can find out quickly, like with a bad Barista they know immediately. Other examples they can take ages to figure out something is dodgy/shonky/causes brain damage in the next generation.

As Keynes says "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again." You may very well get to know every vagabond dealer in our society when you hit 100, however they will have taken all your money by the time you gain that knowledge.

:laughing:

Seems like your gripe is with unscrupulous people.

Not once above have you mentioned an actual argument against Capitalism, just that bad people do bad things.

That's not Capitalism, that's life.

 

[colmcd]

I think people are going to be sick of us talking politics.

So lets talk a Rugby league Example.

Milton Friedman/free market capitalism fans. Why do you think the Salary cap should be abolished?

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

Capitalism and Jesusism are the worse mix. Jesus, whom I don't believe existed, is portrayed as saying: “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

So go and stuff the environment with over population, over production and Abe's big gun is quite okay with the fairy up in the clouds - no wonder the world is in a big mess.

You don't believe Jesus existed? So you have decided to ignore the educated and unquestioned findings of every historian and textual scholar the world over, including those that are overwhelmingly atheists and non-Christians?

Or more likely, you have not bothered to look at the expert opinions and findings of those who have devoted their careers to this question. You just woke up one day in a hash-inspired haze and decided to make an uneducated guess? Congratulations.

<big>Secondly, the quote you mentioned was not uttered by Jesus. :roll</big>

Based on your record of willful ignorance, you don't seem like someone who would understand any deep rooted analysis of religion and its impact on civilization, but western civilization is rooted in Christian teaching and philosophy. Freedom, democracy, human rights, morality, even secular government, (some have even made strong arguments for the Christian basis of Capitalism), basically everything that separates western civilization from the non-western, is rooted in the <big>Judaeo-Christian</bigphilosophy. So I understand why you, as a card carrying marxist/leftist, would hate Christianity and Western Civilization at the same time, because they are inseparable.

As one loses steam, so does the other, which we are unfortunately witnessing emerge in slow motion.

Yes I attributed the quote "go forth and multiply" to the wrong source but that is only a moot point as it is very common, just as you have done above in my large letters highlighted, to link Judeo/Christian philosophy as the cornerstone of our civilisation. Yes it contributed in many negative manners as well as positive. We had the Inquisitions, the Wars of Religions, The Wars Against Science etc etc.. all art was contaminated for a thousand years etc etc.. Children were terrorised into believing they would go infinitely into hell for eating a hamburger on Friday - what utter nonsense and child abuse, the abuses go on and on.

 

[Abraham]

Yes I attributed the quote "go forth and multiply" to the wrong source but that is only a moot point as it is very common, just as you have done above in my large letters highlighted, to link Judeo/Christian philosophy as the cornerstone of our civilisation. Yes it contributed in many negative manners as well as positive. We had the Inquisitions, the Wars of Religions, The Wars Against Science etc etc.. all art was contaminated for a thousand years etc etc.. Children were terrorised into believing they would go infinitely into hell for eating a hamburger on Friday - what utter nonsense and child abuse, the abuses go on and on.

You've already established that you don't understand Christianity, don't understand Josephus … so not sure why your digging a hole for yourself here?

Are the freedoms of Western Civilization, based almost entirely on the Judeo-Christian Worldview, just moot points? Morals, Law, Government, and the building of the fairest and most compassionate of civilisations the world had ever witnessed ... just moot points eh?

You mention wars ... the atheist regimes of the 20th Century killed more people than all the wars of the prior 19 centuries combined. Like i said, stop digging, because the hole will swallow you.

Your like those guys blaming people doing bad things on Capitalism ... instead your blaming people doing bad things on the religion, instead of blaming the people themselves for their own evil.

CB mentioned above the 'human condition'. It is ironic that despite your rantings above, Christianity is the only worldview that not only understands, but gives compassion to the true nature of the human condition. If only you knew the half of it ...

 

[old_man_tiger]

For those who can't be bothered reading -

"Pure" capitalism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

"Pure" socialism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

Of course a theory is good in theory, that's the point! The main argument here seems to be that some are arguing against the current capitalist structures that surround us, and others are trying hard not to defend this current reality, insisting instead that we haven't seen this magical thing called capitalism that can save us all if we just pull our fingers out and work harder. There is a lot of evidence that this is not actually true, but despite being real, that isn't relevant because it doesn't conform with the "theory".

In short, go to the burger thread, much more useful.

 

[Abraham]

I think people are going to be sick of us talking politics.

So lets talk a Rugby league Example.

Milton Friedman/free market capitalism fans. Why do you think the Salary cap should be abolished?

If i was a Broncos supporter yes, as a Wests Tigers supporter … hell no :laughing:

 

[Abraham]

"Pure" socialism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

If you believe that theft of your labour is good in theory, then sure.

 

[MG1962]

"Pure" socialism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

If you believe that theft of your labour is good in theory, then sure.

On the other hand in a pure system, no such theft would occur because all labor would be valued the same. Which sadly also means we would never see a 'pure system' Human nature is simply not made that way.

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

"Pure" socialism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

If you believe that theft of your labour is good in theory, then sure.

On the other hand in a pure system, no such theft would occur because all labor would be valued the same. Which sadly also means we would never see a 'pure system' Human nature is simply not made that way.

If human nature is not made how we can have a pure system but we still were created by Abraham's Judeo-Christian god what implications does that have on god's nature?

 

[MG1962]

If human nature is not made how we can have a pure system but we still were created by Abraham's Judeo-Christian god what implications does that have on god's nature?

I don't believe that there is any Judeo- Christian religious writings that claim humans are pure.

 

[westTAHger]

In " theory" the Leyland P76 was a good vehicle
We all know how that ended….

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

If human nature is not made how we can have a pure system but we still were created by Abraham's Judeo-Christian god what implications does that have on god's nature?

I don't believe that there is any Judeo- Christian religious writings that claim humans are pure.

I think we were temporarily pure before The Fall - just when they invented apple strudel. Regardless of the Judeo-Christian writings and how they are interpreted, they cannot claim that their version of god is all powerful, all knowing and all good. That being the case and with all the suffering and evil that is part of our life that god becomes irrelevant. There other philosophies that are more complete, original and sensible that the Judeo-Christian version. It is a just a shame that the Judeo-Christian god got the numbers up - by hook and crook by the way.

 

[Abraham]

I think we were temporarily pure before The Fall - just when they invented apple strudel. Regardless of the Judeo-Christian writings and how they are interpreted, they cannot claim that their version of god is all powerful, all knowing and all good. That being the case and with all the suffering and evil that is part of our life that god becomes irrelevant. There other philosophies that are more complete, original and sensible that the Judeo-Christian version. It is a just a shame that the Judeo-Christian god got the numbers up - by hook and crook by the way.

But we do make these claims…

If you think that evil and suffering makes God irrelevant, it makes you as clueless as the other 90% of atheists who have not tackled these questions with on any meaningful level. But everyone thinks they are a philosopher these days.

Private Message me or start a new thread if you want to discuss this further, because this is way off topic for this particular thread.

 

[colmcd]

For those who can't be bothered reading -

"Pure" capitalism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

"Pure" socialism is good in theory according to some but we have never seen it.

Of course a theory is good in theory, that's the point! The main argument here seems to be that some are arguing against the current capitalist structures that surround us, and others are trying hard not to defend this current reality, insisting instead that we haven't seen this magical thing called capitalism that can save us all if we just pull our fingers out and work harder. There is a lot of evidence that this is not actually true, but despite being real, that isn't relevant because it doesn't conform with the "theory".

In short, go to the burger thread, much more useful.

So well said.
Theories have their places, but Milton's capitalist theories were and are treated like Dogma. Their "brain farts", just like marxism, just like all the rest. Don't get me wrong, theories rock. But theories rock when people viciously discuss and weigh up the pro's and cons taking into account the experiences and evidence around them. Our status quo is better then both extreme Socialism and Capitalism. In the words of George Orwell "what's wrong with common sense?"

Hence I am off to have a Burger. Having advocated for the O'troppo I am tempted by an old favourite the Bacon Deluxe at hungry Jacks, cheese, lettuce, tomato and loads of beef… So much better then a whopper.