One home ground

[Tiger5150]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.

Based on what measurable metric? WT make MORE money transferring low drawing games to LO & CSS. It suits WT, it suits Stadia NSW.


Tell me two things.

1. What is the measureable metric that you use to PROVE that it is a bad idea playing low drawing games at LO & CSS?

2. Explain to me the logic that explains how this measurable metric will be improved by one home ground at ANZ (for example).

 

[gallagher]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

South's and the dogs have played most their games there for years. Roosters at SFS, donkeys at Suncorp It works.


Does that mean it cant be done better? Do you think that if Redfern and Belmore met NRL specs they wouldnt take NQ or Titans games there if they could make money and keep fans happy?

Dogs have been taking 1 game a year to Belmore, not last year though, 1 game a year be ok.

I don't see the cowboys taking games to dairy farmers.

 

[mike]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

It clearly doesn't work for everyone.


Ok, nothing works for everyone. Ill tell you who it DOES work for. It works for the Wests Tigers and Stadiums NSW. It also works for casual fans who might only go to a few games a year and they see LO as a "match day experience" of which there are MANY (majority of the hill IMO. Do you think that crowd numbers at LO against NQ will translate to the same numbers at ANZ?

LO is dead as a future option, unless a major redevelopment takes place. It's a nostalgic ground from the last century. It's facilities are last century. A retro game per year is the maximum it should get, just for nostalgic purposes only. If the cowboys game was played at Stadium Australia you would have got 30,000 seated and still have been within covid restrictions. Instead we got 9K.

 

[Tiger5150]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.

What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

 

[gallagher]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


Based on what measurable metric? WT make MORE money transferring low drawing games to LO & CSS. It suits WT, it suits Stadia NSW.


Tell me two things.

1. What is the measureable metric that you use to PROVE that it is a bad idea playing low drawing games at LO & CSS?

2. Explain to me the logic that explains how this measurable metric will be improved by one home ground at ANZ (for example).

You tell me how many other clubs around the world do it?
You're saying we're just geniuses??? Our record would suggest otherwise.

 

[gallagher]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

 

[mike]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO, CSS, Western Sydney Stadium and Stadium Australia.

 

[mike]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

jinx... lol

 

[gallagher]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

jinx... lol

Can't believe we had to tell him.

 

[Tiger5150]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

South's and the dogs have played most their games there for years. Roosters at SFS, donkeys at Suncorp It works.


Does that mean it cant be done better? Do you think that if Redfern and Belmore met NRL specs they wouldnt take NQ or Titans games there if they could make money and keep fans happy?

Dogs have been taking 1 game a year to Belmore, not last year though, 1 game a year be ok.

Dogs havent played at Belmore since 2016 when they played 3 games there including against NQ. They cant play there anymore because it doesnt meet NRL requirements. If they could, they would, same reason as us.


I don't see the cowboys taking games to dairy farmers.

What is the correlation with Wests Tigers?

The shiny new stadium at NQ is the same as BankWest and Stadium NSW is happy to for us to play there, and they will pay us $100K as long as we dont play low drawing games there, or it will be less.

Is it that hard to work out?

 

[Tiger5150]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

Ofc ourse....I got thrown because the Easter match got moved otherwise zero at ANZ

 

[Tiger5150]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

jinx... lol

Can't believe we had to tell him.

Easter threw me

 

[gallagher]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

South's and the dogs have played most their games there for years. Roosters at SFS, donkeys at Suncorp It works.


Does that mean it cant be done better? Do you think that if Redfern and Belmore met NRL specs they wouldnt take NQ or Titans games there if they could make money and keep fans happy?

Dogs have been taking 1 game a year to Belmore, not last year though, 1 game a year be ok.

Dogs havent played at Belmore since 2016 when they played 3 games there including against NQ. They cant play there anymore because it doesnt meet NRL requirements. If they could, they would, same reason as us.


I don't see the cowboys taking games to dairy farmers.

What is the correlation with Wests Tigers?

The shiny new stadium at NQ is the same as BankWest and Stadium NSW is happy to for us to play there, and they will pay us $100K as long as we dont play low drawing games there, or it will be less.

Is it that hard to work out?

Dogs played there in 2019 and are actually playing us there this year.
Its not too hard to work out.

 

[gallagher]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

jinx... lol

Can't believe we had to tell him.


Easter threw me

Yeah, well maybe, before you start telling me that something is SLOWLY getting through to me or something isn't too hard to work out you might want to re-think your own posts.

 

[Tiger5150]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

South's and the dogs have played most their games there for years. Roosters at SFS, donkeys at Suncorp It works.


Does that mean it cant be done better? Do you think that if Redfern and Belmore met NRL specs they wouldnt take NQ or Titans games there if they could make money and keep fans happy?

Dogs have been taking 1 game a year to Belmore, not last year though, 1 game a year be ok.

Dogs havent played at Belmore since 2016 when they played 3 games there including against NQ. They cant play there anymore because it doesnt meet NRL requirements. If they could, they would, same reason as us.


I don't see the cowboys taking games to dairy farmers.

What is the correlation with Wests Tigers?

The shiny new stadium at NQ is the same as BankWest and Stadium NSW is happy to for us to play there, and they will pay us $100K as long as we dont play low drawing games there, or it will be less.

Is it that hard to work out?

Dogs played there in 2019 and are actually playing us there this year.
Its not too hard to work out.

I was unaware of that and it obviously disproves what I thought about Belmore meeting criteria.

Why do you think Bulldogs are doing that?

 

[Tiger5150]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.


What four grounds are we using in one city in 2021?

LO,CSS ,Bankwest and Homebush.

jinx... lol

Can't believe we had to tell him.


Easter threw me

Yeah, well maybe, before you start telling me that something is SLOWLY getting through to me or something isn't too hard to work out you might want to re-think your own posts.

Fair call...

 

[TigerTownSFS]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

It clearly doesn't work for everyone.


Ok, nothing works for everyone. Ill tell you who it DOES work for. It works for the Wests Tigers and Stadiums NSW. It also works for casual fans who might only go to a few games a year and they see LO as a "match day experience" of which there are MANY (majority of the hill IMO. Do you think that crowd numbers at LO against NQ will translate to the same numbers at ANZ?


LO is dead as a future option, unless a major redevelopment takes place. It's a nostalgic ground from the last century. It's facilities are last century. A retro game per year is the maximum it should get, just for nostalgic purposes only. If the cowboys game was played at ANZ you would have got 30,000 seated and still have been within covid restrictions. Instead we got 9K.

100% this. Leichhardt isn’t exactly family friendly (difficult parking, very limited number of seats, most seats unsheltered). Leichhardt is excellent for standing on the hill with mates sinking tinnies. That is good but also a niche market, probably best a couple of times a year. To build a larger membership base you need to bring in families and that requires a modern stadium. The redeveloped SFS is going to be the best stadium in Australia to watch rugby league. We would be well served making a 10yr commitment to play 1 at Cambo and LO and the rest in the best league stadium in Australia/the world.

 

[tigerbalm]

Of all the sporting clubs, in all sports, all over the world we are the one club that uses 4 grounds in the one city.
Odds are that we are the dumb arses.

Unless 4's not enough. Maybe 10 home grounds. Collect up all these casual fans longing for a game day experience.

Lennon bros circus still about? maybe Pascoe could do a deal with the owners and have Wests play under the big top in a new town every fortnight. During the week most of the team would look right at home in face paint and all piling out the back of a small car.

 

[gallagher]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

South's and the dogs have played most their games there for years. Roosters at SFS, donkeys at Suncorp It works.


Does that mean it cant be done better? Do you think that if Redfern and Belmore met NRL specs they wouldnt take NQ or Titans games there if they could make money and keep fans happy?

Dogs have been taking 1 game a year to Belmore, not last year though, 1 game a year be ok.

Dogs havent played at Belmore since 2016 when they played 3 games there including against NQ. They cant play there anymore because it doesnt meet NRL requirements. If they could, they would, same reason as us.


I don't see the cowboys taking games to dairy farmers.

What is the correlation with Wests Tigers?

The shiny new stadium at NQ is the same as BankWest and Stadium NSW is happy to for us to play there, and they will pay us $100K as long as we dont play low drawing games there, or it will be less.

Is it that hard to work out?

Dogs played there in 2019 and are actually playing us there this year.
Its not too hard to work out.


I was unaware of that and it obviously disproves what I thought about Belmore meeting criteria.

Why do you think Bulldogs are doing that?

Well the council gave them millions a few years ago for their training facilities so I reckon taking games back there was part of that deal. That put it back from three to one have though.
And having said that, it makes the dogs another team that uses three grounds in the one city. I'm not sure we are in good company.

 

[mike]

From 2014:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/home-truths-why-playing-at-big-venues-pays-off-for-sydney-clubs-20140426-zr05p.html#ixzz31MVgn900

WESTS TIGERS – Leichhardt Oval, Campbelltown Sports Stadium, ANZ Stadium



LEICHHARDT OVAL

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $65,000 (Ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $200,000 for a sell-out crowd at Leichhardt Oval. There is a budgeted difference in average ticket price between Leichhardt and Campbelltown, with about a $4-a-head higher return at Leichhardt. Undercover seats at the Leichhardt ground are scarce, therefore the higher premium charge.

Corporate: $55,000 (capacity of 550 at approximately $100 a head)

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 a head ($35,000 in round five)

Signage: Only one stand for signage opportunity not in television range.

Average crowd: 14,279 for the past three seasons (five of the past 13games against Sydney teams).





CAMPBELLTOWN SPORTS STADIUM

Capacity: 20,000

Expenditure: Operational costs: $70,000 (ground rental, hiring of the big screen, ushers, security, police, cleaning and waste removal).

Revenue

Ticket sales: $170,000 for a sell-out crowd at Campelltown.

Merchandise: Roughly worth $1.20 to $1.50 per head ($16,000 in round six for a crowd of just more than 6000)

Corporate: $47,000 (capacity of 470 at appx $100 a head)

Signage: Greatest opportunity for signage sales of all three venues because the club has 100 per cent inventory. However, appeal is lower because games are rarely on free-to-air television.

Average crowd: 13,256 for the past three years. (Six of the past 13games against Sydney teams)





ANZ STADIUM

Capacity: 82,000

Expenditure – Operational costs: $10,000-$15,000

Revenue

ANZ Stadium: In excess of $125,000 average guarantee.

Ticket sales: $0 (ANZ Stadium receive the money from ticket sales. There is a profit-share agreement in place for when all operational costs, including gate receipts, are met. This is an incentive for the club and venue to maximise crowds and receive an equal split.)

Merchandise: Budget for $1.50 a person, with average crowd attendances budgeted for 22,000 a game. On Easter Monday, as the away team, the club sold $16,000 worth of merchandise outside the stadium. The club was not entitled to merchandise rights at the ANZ Stadium and had to sell outside the ground).

Corporate: Estimated $70,000 (maximum capacity in excess of 1000)

Signage: Shared inventory for big screen and signage.

Average crowd: This is the first year of a new deal at ANZ Stadium. The Tigers averaged 18,018 at Allianz Stadium (one game at the SCG) during the past three years. Ten of the 12 games were against Sydney teams, the other two were against the Broncos. Their only home game at ANZ Stadium this year attracted 20,061.

Wests Tigers: The Tigers played some games at ANZ Stadium between 2005 and 2008, but in 2009 the club’s former administration signed a deal with Allianz Stadium to play four games a year at the venue. The club decided against extending its stay in the city despite being offered $100,000 a game to play at Allianz Stadium.

They are now in the first year of a 10-year deal with ANZ Stadium worth close to $500,000 for four games with the potential to play up to six games a year. The club put up an online poll before moving to ANZ Stadium, with 51per cent of fans voting in favour of the Olympic Park venue compared with 49 per cent at Allianz. However, the club believes it has more of a connection with the west rather than the city, plus it provides an opportunity to offer cheaper entry-level memberships worth $50 for eight games at ANZ Stadium (four home games and four away games with reciprocal membership rights). They now work in partnership with ANZ Stadium to promote the game, whereas at Leichhardt and Campbelltown they are the sole promoters.

‘‘The more games played at ANZ Stadium, the more leverage the game and the venue has with state and federal government to consistently upgrade and develop not only the facility but the precinct to provide customers an improved match-day experience,’’ Tigers chief executive Grant Mayer said. While some details of the finances of each club are private and confidential, Mayer believes sharing this information is beneficial for the game to drive greater commercial benefits for each club.

‘‘If the clubs pooled resources and negotiated as one, then our buying power is magnified exponentially and that increases the commercial return for the clubs,’’ Mayer said.


Its a false comparison and pretty much reinforces the case to play at Leichhardt and Campbelltown.

The $125,000 "average guarantee" (I believe it is closer to $100K now) is based on playing smaller crowds (that ANZ would LOSE money on) at Leichhardt and Campbelltown. What do you think would happen to that "average guarantee" if you said to ANZ (Stadiums NSW), "yeah but we also want to play another 6 games at your place, but you will lose money on each of them"? The guarentee would go down, naturally. Its business.

Seriously dont see why its an issue. The current situation works well for all parties and we wouldnt win a single extra game if we played all of our games out of ANZ.

It clearly doesn't work for everyone.


Ok, nothing works for everyone. Ill tell you who it DOES work for. It works for the Wests Tigers and Stadiums NSW. It also works for casual fans who might only go to a few games a year and they see LO as a "match day experience" of which there are MANY (majority of the hill IMO. Do you think that crowd numbers at LO against NQ will translate to the same numbers at ANZ?


LO is dead as a future option, unless a major redevelopment takes place. It's a nostalgic ground from the last century. It's facilities are last century. A retro game per year is the maximum it should get, just for nostalgic purposes only. If the cowboys game was played at ANZ you would have got 30,000 seated and still have been within covid restrictions. Instead we got 9K.

100% this. Leichhardt isn’t exactly family friendly (difficult parking, very limited number of seats, most seats unsheltered). Leichhardt is excellent for standing on the hill with mates sinking tinnies. That is good but also a niche market, probably best a couple of times a year. To build a larger membership base you need to bring in families and that requires a modern stadium. The redeveloped SFS is going to be the best stadium in Australia to watch rugby league. We would be well served making a 10yr commitment to play 1 at Cambo and LO and the rest in the best league stadium in Australia/the world.

I am definitely leaning towards the redeveloped SFS. Your comments about LO are spot on and apply similarly to CSS.