One ref

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

This is not about giving the team what they want, it is about speeding the game up and preventing a team deliberately giving away penalties to reset their defensive line.

So we should give attacking teams less for a penalty than we used to just to slightly speed the game up? That makes no sense to me. It just helps the defensive team in most scenarios. The only one it doesn’t is when you’re defending your own line and giving away penalties to reset - but even then some teams want to take the two points.

 

[cochise]

For me the talk about one referee being on the field will improve consistency is a fallacy. There was an appearance last year (and most years) in inconsistency between the referees each week. I don't mean just when two refs are on the field, but an inconsistency between each referee and even between the performance of a single referee from week to week.

Having one ref on the field at once isn't going to alter that at all.

The one ref system may be better, time will tell, but it won't make the refs more consistent, not one bit.

I actually do not mind inconsistency between refs and games, each ref has a different personality and I don't actually have a problem with them using those differences when reffing. Some people are more authoritarian and if they way they control the game is to blow more penalties than the guy who is more of people manager who is able to encourage and push guys through a game without using the whistle as much I don't see a problem with that. I have spent most of my adult life supervising and managing teachers and you se these differences in styles everyday and guess what, both work.

I remember when I played our refs weren't the same, but we would now coming up to the game that this guy was stickler for being onside so we would make sure we paid attention to that for that game.

Basically what I am saying is refs are not robots, they are humans with personalities and we should allow them to use that to manage the game because not everyone is same.

Yeah I wouldn't mind that sort of idiosyncrasy coming into it, as long as the fundamental interpretations stay the same.

I don't think having one ref as opposed to two on the field will increase consistency in the fundamental interpretations from week to week, which is where I think the NRL largely needs to improve, so I really don't see the point of this except to save a few coins.

At the end of the day, I want a comp where Wests Tigers can do well and compete with the big boys, where if we good enough then we have a shot, instead of being disadvantaged due to politics. If the comp can be more even and we get a shot at the title (if we play well enough to deserve it) then I'm happy, and whether there's one ref or two I don't really care.

It's funny, when Harrigan was reffing he reffed quite differently to most of the other refs and tried to let the game flow. Then when he became refs boss he tried to make everyone ref the same way he did and that is when we started to have the problems with our refs because not everyone is the same and people manage other people in different ways.

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds

One of the biggest differences as you increase the quality of the players is the increase in the speed of the game, your argument is flawed.

 

[BermiTiger]

What about a penalty if the offence (play the ball infringement) is in the attacking red zone but allow the attacking team to also take a quick tap in the 10 m area. That would certainly clean it up in my opinion.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds

One of the biggest differences as you increase the quality of the players is the increase in the speed of the game, your argument is flawed.

That’s true, but then why does the Australian team, full of the best players in the world, still have a slower PTB speed than NRL teams. It’s almost like there’s one major difference that influences the ruck speed....

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

This is not about giving the team what they want, it is about speeding the game up and preventing a team deliberately giving away penalties to reset their defensive line.

So we should give attacking teams less for a penalty than we used to just to slightly speed the game up? That makes no sense to me. It just helps the defensive team in most scenarios. The only one it doesn’t is when you’re defending your own line and giving away penalties to reset - but even then some teams want to take the two points.

Yes we should, the idea is to reduce the deliberate penalties that teams like the Roosters are experts at. It is also to improve the flow of the game, stopping and starting for penalties disrupts the flow of the game, will this work, I don't know but at least we are trying something to improve the ruck.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

This is not about giving the team what they want, it is about speeding the game up and preventing a team deliberately giving away penalties to reset their defensive line.

So we should give attacking teams less for a penalty than we used to just to slightly speed the game up? That makes no sense to me. It just helps the defensive team in most scenarios. The only one it doesn’t is when you’re defending your own line and giving away penalties to reset - but even then some teams want to take the two points.

Yes we should, the idea is to reduce the deliberate penalties that teams like the Roosters are experts at. It is also to improve the flow of the game, stopping and starting for penalties disrupts the flow of the game, will this work, I don't know but at least we are trying something to improve the ruck.

It will definitely speed the game up having less penalties but will also slow the game down having more wrestle... so it’ll probably even out to be honest ?

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds

One of the biggest differences as you increase the quality of the players is the increase in the speed of the game, your argument is flawed.

That’s true, but then why does the Australian team, full of the best players in the world, still have a slower PTB speed than NRL teams. It’s almost like there’s one major difference that influences the ruck speed....

Honestly, in that case I believe it is a lack of intensity in those games. Australia doesn't place a high importance of international football.

Honestly I want to see the players clearing the ruck when a tackle is made, not laying there looking at the second ref waiting to be told when to get off the tackled player. What Taylor in out games, every tackle he looks to the 2nd ref waiting to be told to get up. That is a rubbish look for our game.

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

This is not about giving the team what they want, it is about speeding the game up and preventing a team deliberately giving away penalties to reset their defensive line.

So we should give attacking teams less for a penalty than we used to just to slightly speed the game up? That makes no sense to me. It just helps the defensive team in most scenarios. The only one it doesn’t is when you’re defending your own line and giving away penalties to reset - but even then some teams want to take the two points.

Yes we should, the idea is to reduce the deliberate penalties that teams like the Roosters are experts at. It is also to improve the flow of the game, stopping and starting for penalties disrupts the flow of the game, will this work, I don't know but at least we are trying something to improve the ruck.

It will definitely speed the game up having less penalties but will also slow the game down having more wrestle... so it’ll probably even out to be honest ?

Funnily enough the worse wrestling has ever been in our sport has been when we had 2 refs, before the 2 ref system the wrestle wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds

One of the biggest differences as you increase the quality of the players is the increase in the speed of the game, your argument is flawed.

That’s true, but then why does the Australian team, full of the best players in the world, still have a slower PTB speed than NRL teams. It’s almost like there’s one major difference that influences the ruck speed....

Honestly, in that case I believe it is a lack of intensity in those games. Australia doesn't place a high importance of international football.

Honestly I want to see the players clearing the ruck when a tackle is made, not laying there looking at the second ref waiting to be told when to get off the tackled player. What Taylor in out games, every tackle he looks to the 2nd ref waiting to be told to get up. That is a rubbish look for our game.

‘Lack on intensity’ has nothing to do with it. That Tonga vs Australia game was very intense especially on the Tongan side (who also had a slower PTB speed). That’s not a very strong argument to have.

Instead of looking at the second ref he’ll look at the only ref instead and do the exact same thing except he’ll probably get to do It a bit longer

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

This is not about giving the team what they want, it is about speeding the game up and preventing a team deliberately giving away penalties to reset their defensive line.

So we should give attacking teams less for a penalty than we used to just to slightly speed the game up? That makes no sense to me. It just helps the defensive team in most scenarios. The only one it doesn’t is when you’re defending your own line and giving away penalties to reset - but even then some teams want to take the two points.

Yes we should, the idea is to reduce the deliberate penalties that teams like the Roosters are experts at. It is also to improve the flow of the game, stopping and starting for penalties disrupts the flow of the game, will this work, I don't know but at least we are trying something to improve the ruck.

It will definitely speed the game up having less penalties but will also slow the game down having more wrestle... so it’ll probably even out to be honest ?

Funnily enough the worse wrestling has ever been in our sport has been when we had 2 refs, before the 2 ref system the wrestle wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now.

Because the game changed and wrestling coaches got brought in. Don’t fool yourself there was definitely wrestling before the two ref system but over the years teams get better and better at it. Every team tries their best to exploit rules and this new one ref system will be no different. I’ll be interested to see how Melbourne take advantage of it, they’re the masters of bending the rules the bastards

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds

One of the biggest differences as you increase the quality of the players is the increase in the speed of the game, your argument is flawed.

That’s true, but then why does the Australian team, full of the best players in the world, still have a slower PTB speed than NRL teams. It’s almost like there’s one major difference that influences the ruck speed....

Honestly, in that case I believe it is a lack of intensity in those games. Australia doesn't place a high importance of international football.

Honestly I want to see the players clearing the ruck when a tackle is made, not laying there looking at the second ref waiting to be told when to get off the tackled player. What Taylor in out games, every tackle he looks to the 2nd ref waiting to be told to get up. That is a rubbish look for our game.

‘Lack on intensity’ has nothing to do with it. That Tonga vs Australia game was very intense especially on the Tongan side (who also had a slower PTB speed). That’s not a very strong argument to have.

Instead of looking at the second ref he’ll look at the only ref instead and do the exact same thing except he’ll probably get to do It a bit longer

Tonga plays with all intensity, and lack a bit of skill to be honest, the Australian side does not take those matches as seriously as they do the SOO games.

 

[Geo]

A boffin has crunched the numbers at nrl .com and says that ball in play will increase by 2 minutes per game or 22 seconds per non penalty

Sooo..5.1 penalties for ruck infringements per game x 22 seconds = 2 mins more game time x 8 games per week x 18 weeks =17 280 seconds more footy or 288 more minutes of the ball in play for the remainder of the 2020 season...

yessssssssssssss...

https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/05/14/six-again-rule-to-increase-ball-in-play-by-two-minutes-per-game/

 

[tiger_one]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We live in the age of NRL analytics - go figure!

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

The one thing I will look forward to is the a consistent call on the game. With two referees there are two sets of eyes and two interpretations of events.

 

[jirskyr]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds

One of the biggest differences as you increase the quality of the players is the increase in the speed of the game, your argument is flawed.

That’s true, but then why does the Australian team, full of the best players in the world, still have a slower PTB speed than NRL teams. It’s almost like there’s one major difference that influences the ruck speed....

Honestly, in that case I believe it is a lack of intensity in those games. Australia doesn't place a high importance of international football.

Honestly I want to see the players clearing the ruck when a tackle is made, not laying there looking at the second ref waiting to be told when to get off the tackled player. What Taylor in out games, every tackle he looks to the 2nd ref waiting to be told to get up. That is a rubbish look for our game.

‘Lack on intensity’ has nothing to do with it. That Tonga vs Australia game was very intense especially on the Tongan side (who also had a slower PTB speed). That’s not a very strong argument to have.

Instead of looking at the second ref he’ll look at the only ref instead and do the exact same thing except he’ll probably get to do It a bit longer

Are you guys still analysing one single match? 1 International of slow PTB doesn't mean they all are?

 

[WT2K]

The stoush between the NRL and the referees continues. The matter was before the Fair Work Commission today. Conciliation is adjourned to Tuesday. #NRL
https://twitter.com/proshenks/status/1261208643074060289?s=19

 

[WT2K]

Players will be automatically sin-binned if they give a ruck penalty away and the bunker will increase its monitoring of the play the ball in sweeping new changes ahead of the NRL’s return on May 28.

The Saturday Telegraph has obtained the new rules issued to all clubs on Friday detailing how the game will function with just one referee and the introduction of a six-again verbal restart instead of a penalty.

The “six again procedure” outlined a raft of changes after referee’s boss Bernie Sutton spent the past two days detailing the amendments.

Among the biggest changes include;

– A ruck infringement will result in six again except for professional fouls, repeated infringements, where play has broken down. A full penalty can be blown in those instances.

– A professional foul or repeated infringement penalty will result in automatic sin bin.

– The referee will control the 10 metres with the assistance of an open side touch judge.

– Touch judge nearest the ruck will assist with monitoring the play the ball and is able to step onto the field.

– There will be a ruck spotter in the bunker who will assist the referee during breaks in play.

– If the referee decides a player while in possession deliberately breaks down play to milk a six again call into a full penalty the referee will order a scrum and hand possession to the defending team.

The six-again rule covers off holding down in a tackle, hand on the ball, crowding and leg pulls. The likes of grapples, facials and chicken wings will continue to be penalised and punished in the traditional way.

The documents also states in “a full penalty for a professional foul or repeated infringements, the offending player will be sent to the sin bin”.

“A repeated infringement scenario may arise where multiple six again restarts have been awarded and harsher action is requited”.

Teams do not have to be warned before the sin bin is used.

Markers not square will remain a penalty so too if an attacking player incorrectly plays the ball.

Dragons coach Paul McGregor was against the changes but said they could favour his side.

“In 2008 when they changed from the one referee to two it was around the demands of the pace of the game being too hard for the one referee,” McGregor said. “Twelve years later we change it back to one referee. Is it the right timing? That’s questionable. The other rule change with the six to go, compliments the one referee where he can call it on the run and keep the game flowing.

“It will help us. Selfishly, if you look at the Dragons we give the least amount of penalties away in holding down. For us it’s good, for the game I’m not sure the timing is right.”

 

[gallagher]

I like that teams won't be warned.

 

[happy_tiger]

A boffin has crunched the numbers at nrl .com and says that ball in play will increase by 2 minutes per game or 22 seconds per non penalty

Sooo..5.1 penalties for ruck infringements per game x 22 seconds = 2 mins more game time x 8 games per week x 18 weeks =17 280 seconds more footy or 288 more minutes of the ball in play for the remainder of the 2020 season...

yessssssssssssss...

https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/05/14/six-again-rule-to-increase-ball-in-play-by-two-minutes-per-game/

So will we be defending for an extra 2 minutes or attacking for an extra 2 minutes