Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Tim Sheens]

The terrible situation of indigenous communities' next major step forward starts with the rest of us providing recognition in our constitution, which was recently once again basically scuttled due to the political power of a few. That the biggest step forward in decades was to simply apologise is damming of our response.

In the meantime, I am writing whilst listening to a rally of the US president in Minneapolis late last year and see correlation of both the situations and views.

 

[Tiger5150]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

A lot of people are boycotting BLM because of where the donations go to and what it has morphed into, this whole defund the police demand for one. If you're on instagram have a look at the Official Hodge Twins.....they have a fantastic view on how things are transpiring in the US.

I don't have insta but will google them...cheers Oz...

no worries mate. They have a great perspective on how twisted things are getting over there.....I highly recommend seeing their piece on the St Louis couple who had people break onto their property and they faced off with some fairly intense firearms.

They didn't break onto their property, they were just using the sidewalk.


The sidewalk was *inside* a security, gated community that they had broken into.

Was a private street most definitely (belonging to the community as a whole), but the protestors didn't enter their property or step off the sidewalk. Certainly wasn't cause for those two morons to point an automatic weapon at them.

I disagree with you on this one Avo. I am NOT pro guns but I think we all make the mistake of viewing this situation through Aussie eyes. It is very different situation over there.

Bear in mind that there have been weeks now of violent riots all over the US with a lot of violence and property damage, all the while the police have been asked to stand down. If you have watched violent mobs tear through your city targeting rich white people, mobs which had already [shot 4 police officers](https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-iran-china-media-weigh-us-protests-70991688) in their city and then a large mob brandishing placards etc *illegally break into* your secure gated property, what other options do you have?

[They were warned](https://nypost.com/2020/07/05/st-louis-couple-stay-on-balcony-as-protesters-return-to-mansion/) that the BLM protesters were coming back and the police said good luck you are on your own, they had to employ private security to protect the property.

 

[Tim Sheens]

The following video puts things even further into perspective for mine and I have witnessed it in many cultures.

https://www.facebook.com/viola.davis/videos/2460522970905791/

 

[TrueTiger]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

Problem is Zig when a movement gets too large it's scope increases with it. The BLM movement is the sum of it's parts. Some within the movement call for the defunding of police, others just want cops who kill without restraint prosecuted. Any large decentralised movement without structured leadership will wind up having conflicting goals. The other issue with popular movements is they have slogans and an overarching goal, but little idea of how to achieve it.

For example, I am generally opposed to any environmental policy that is considered "anti-climate change." We saw a range of people march, kids strike from school etc in order to make a statement about action on climate change. Ask a large range of those people how they would go about achieving it, and they wouldn't be able to answer. Making minimum solar requirements a part of BASIX laws (and whatever comparative relevant interstate legislation,) an end to coal subsidy, institution of plantations to make up lost bushland in the Sydney basin, imposition of synthetic refrigerant tariffs based on GWP are just some ideas on how I think it should be tackled. I think there's huge potential for Australia to become an solar energy farm for South East Asia. Free power for Australia, and exportation to China and India for a price. That would reduce running costs for manufacturing in Australia which could also see a return of a local industry. A large solar industry would require more skilled tradespeople as well increasing jobs.

Also, regarding education of black children, read into the community programmes the Black Panther party instituted in the US and the lengths that the Hoover led CIA went to squash it. Community education programmes, feeding kids breakfast etc, all these were deemed as internal security threats. There has been a lot of horrific treatment of black Americans, especially when they just tried to better themselves and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I completely see your points CB,however I would just like to mention in regard to our indigenous people and step aside from US black community for a moment,when I was in Wagga playing football and working I had numerous indigenous friends,there was also a lot of indigenous people in special housing sections in Wagga just for the indigenous community who couldn't afford housing..
Some of these houses were trashed,broken into and some set fire to,now why would you do that if you were a person that respected that you were given something that you didn't have to earn,by the whole of the community not just indigenous.?
The other example I will give ...a man mowed his lawn in one of the suburbs,he washed his mower and left it out in his front yard to dry and went in for a cold drink,as he came out he found 4 indigenous people taking his mower and driving off with it ,he got the rego and rang the police,he was told to go to the indigenous admin centre and make a complaint …
the answer he was given is this""how much is your mower worth""he said about $400,then and there they wrote him out a cheque for that amount and said "here you are go buy a new one...
there was no offer to penalise the offenders and the police had to refer him to the indigenous admin for them to handle it...there in lies some of the problem,the police couldn't even prosecute because they were indigenous..so this is where a lot of the problems arise...

It goes to show generations of government simply sweeping the problem under the rug by simply throwing money at it, instead of investing in legitimate generational change through positive action.

Exactly. I'm all for doing whatever we can, but, clearly throwing money at it over and over hasn't worked. In the end, if you don't want to help yourself, nobody else can help you. The problem is how do you get people to help themselves? ( any colour)

That's the big question really isn't it and there clearly isn't one answer fits all. No matter what is tried, the people at the pointy end of, for want of a better term, the social experiment will be the guinea pigs that will be disadvantaged the most and as such in the short term it will be seen as victimization because of reasons A, B and C......but nothing will be perfect the first time around and needs time to be corrected.

Don't get me wrong here Oz,but the problem I think all evolves around weak govts in past eras have given in to the tough questions asked and solved it by monetary answers..
There wasn't the work for what you get and if you need help we are here for you,which in turn created the welfare system,not just for people who really needed it but for others who took advantage of it and nothing was really objected to by the outer community because those that took advantage were indigenous people and their generations became comfortable on the system..
So my argument isn't about race or colour its about the fairness...We did have an Aboriginal Affairs office set up just for the indigenous to get what they needed when they needed it and there is the start of reliance on the system..so we were fair to our indigenous people and found a solution for them to get by and survive..

I think that's part of the issue TT. These problems are never going to be solved by standing back and throwing money at them. And,yes, the problems have to be owned and addressed by aboriginal people. But governments do need to facilitate that.

I'd like to see some changes in attitude, particularly from the right of the political spectrum.

The statement from the heart recommended that an indigenous advisory group be elected to provide advice to parliament on indigenous affairs. The idea was a bit vague in that it didn't detail how these representatives would be chosen or elected, but it wasn't a bad idea and it's been totally misrepresented by the right as being a "separate chamber of government for aboriginal people". A lot of people in Australia now believe that to be true, but it's just a load of rubbish!

What has been proposed is an advisory group that reports to the parliament. Parliament would be free to accept or reject the advice from that group. The key difference is that previous Indigenous Affairs offices have been appointed by one government and subsequently dismissed or de-funded by subsequent governments. Sometimes for good reasons (ATSIC) and sometimes just for ideological reasons. By having a body that is directly responsible to parliament, it cannot simply be dismissed by an incoming government with a different political ideology.

So there are important changes that can be made at minimal cost to help our indigenous community take ownership and control of the issues that plague it. But it needs a shift in attitude from some of our elected representatives to move them along.

And it wouldn't hurt for some of our politicians and media representatives to start by being a little more truthful in their commentaries on matters such as this. That wouldn't cost anything.

I think you make very accurate and honest points tigger,also in this day and age it doesn't matter your heritage,bakground or culture we are in a multicultural society and the majority of our communities live along side of each other,respect each other and look after each other..in my opinion the BLM movement is trying to make a divide and if we are strong enough we wont let that happen,sure understand their issues respect what they are saying but don't let them stand over us because of historical short comings that are in our past...its important to all of us...
My parents were immigrants from war torn Europe but I was born here and you couldn't get a bloke more Australian than myself being raised in the Aussie culture by my parents who were refered to as foriegners,wogs and daigos,but that didn't deter them from calling Australia home and not only adapting to Aust culture and society but help build what we have now eg Snowy River Scheme,Raiways and other industries and infrastructure..
the main point Im making is we are all in this country together and it is us sticking up for each other and being one is when we have strength,I don't want to see BLM come between any of us particularly splitting Indigenous people and white people..

 

[Tiger5150]

The following video puts things even further into perspective for mine and I have witnessed it in many cultures.

https://www.facebook.com/viola.davis/videos/2460522970905791/

What is the point the video, and you by extension are trying to make? That Indians are racist?

 

[Tim Sheens]

The following video puts things even further into perspective for mine and I have witnessed it in many cultures.

https://www.facebook.com/viola.davis/videos/2460522970905791/


What is the point the video, and you by extension are trying to make? That Indians are racist?

Decipher it as being however you wish.

 

[Tiger5150]

The following video puts things even further into perspective for mine and I have witnessed it in many cultures.

https://www.facebook.com/viola.davis/videos/2460522970905791/


What is the point the video, and you by extension are trying to make? That Indians are racist?

Decipher it as being however you wish.

Im not being smart about it FG, I was interested in your take on it.

The video is well made and is powerfully emotive, but all of the examples he gave to justify his discussion were specific to indians/pakistanis. At the end of the video he lists "solutions", which I give him credit for because most of these types of videos just b***h about the problem, not provide the solution. Trouble is most of his solutions either have happened already or will happen regardless. "Prosecute the police".....already done..."Vote"....will happen regardless.

"Demilitarise the police"? You cant demilitarise/reduce/defund/abolish police and also laugh at Lawyers holding guns on their front lawns. Pick one.

 

[tigger]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

Problem is Zig when a movement gets too large it's scope increases with it. The BLM movement is the sum of it's parts. Some within the movement call for the defunding of police, others just want cops who kill without restraint prosecuted. Any large decentralised movement without structured leadership will wind up having conflicting goals. The other issue with popular movements is they have slogans and an overarching goal, but little idea of how to achieve it.

For example, I am generally opposed to any environmental policy that is considered "anti-climate change." We saw a range of people march, kids strike from school etc in order to make a statement about action on climate change. Ask a large range of those people how they would go about achieving it, and they wouldn't be able to answer. Making minimum solar requirements a part of BASIX laws (and whatever comparative relevant interstate legislation,) an end to coal subsidy, institution of plantations to make up lost bushland in the Sydney basin, imposition of synthetic refrigerant tariffs based on GWP are just some ideas on how I think it should be tackled. I think there's huge potential for Australia to become an solar energy farm for South East Asia. Free power for Australia, and exportation to China and India for a price. That would reduce running costs for manufacturing in Australia which could also see a return of a local industry. A large solar industry would require more skilled tradespeople as well increasing jobs.

Also, regarding education of black children, read into the community programmes the Black Panther party instituted in the US and the lengths that the Hoover led CIA went to squash it. Community education programmes, feeding kids breakfast etc, all these were deemed as internal security threats. There has been a lot of horrific treatment of black Americans, especially when they just tried to better themselves and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I completely see your points CB,however I would just like to mention in regard to our indigenous people and step aside from US black community for a moment,when I was in Wagga playing football and working I had numerous indigenous friends,there was also a lot of indigenous people in special housing sections in Wagga just for the indigenous community who couldn't afford housing..
Some of these houses were trashed,broken into and some set fire to,now why would you do that if you were a person that respected that you were given something that you didn't have to earn,by the whole of the community not just indigenous.?
The other example I will give ...a man mowed his lawn in one of the suburbs,he washed his mower and left it out in his front yard to dry and went in for a cold drink,as he came out he found 4 indigenous people taking his mower and driving off with it ,he got the rego and rang the police,he was told to go to the indigenous admin centre and make a complaint …
the answer he was given is this""how much is your mower worth""he said about $400,then and there they wrote him out a cheque for that amount and said "here you are go buy a new one...
there was no offer to penalise the offenders and the police had to refer him to the indigenous admin for them to handle it...there in lies some of the problem,the police couldn't even prosecute because they were indigenous..so this is where a lot of the problems arise...

It goes to show generations of government simply sweeping the problem under the rug by simply throwing money at it, instead of investing in legitimate generational change through positive action.

Exactly. I'm all for doing whatever we can, but, clearly throwing money at it over and over hasn't worked. In the end, if you don't want to help yourself, nobody else can help you. The problem is how do you get people to help themselves? ( any colour)

That's the big question really isn't it and there clearly isn't one answer fits all. No matter what is tried, the people at the pointy end of, for want of a better term, the social experiment will be the guinea pigs that will be disadvantaged the most and as such in the short term it will be seen as victimization because of reasons A, B and C......but nothing will be perfect the first time around and needs time to be corrected.

Don't get me wrong here Oz,but the problem I think all evolves around weak govts in past eras have given in to the tough questions asked and solved it by monetary answers..
There wasn't the work for what you get and if you need help we are here for you,which in turn created the welfare system,not just for people who really needed it but for others who took advantage of it and nothing was really objected to by the outer community because those that took advantage were indigenous people and their generations became comfortable on the system..
So my argument isn't about race or colour its about the fairness...We did have an Aboriginal Affairs office set up just for the indigenous to get what they needed when they needed it and there is the start of reliance on the system..so we were fair to our indigenous people and found a solution for them to get by and survive..

I think that's part of the issue TT. These problems are never going to be solved by standing back and throwing money at them. And,yes, the problems have to be owned and addressed by aboriginal people. But governments do need to facilitate that.

I'd like to see some changes in attitude, particularly from the right of the political spectrum.

The statement from the heart recommended that an indigenous advisory group be elected to provide advice to parliament on indigenous affairs. The idea was a bit vague in that it didn't detail how these representatives would be chosen or elected, but it wasn't a bad idea and it's been totally misrepresented by the right as being a "separate chamber of government for aboriginal people". A lot of people in Australia now believe that to be true, but it's just a load of rubbish!

What has been proposed is an advisory group that reports to the parliament. Parliament would be free to accept or reject the advice from that group. The key difference is that previous Indigenous Affairs offices have been appointed by one government and subsequently dismissed or de-funded by subsequent governments. Sometimes for good reasons (ATSIC) and sometimes just for ideological reasons. By having a body that is directly responsible to parliament, it cannot simply be dismissed by an incoming government with a different political ideology.

So there are important changes that can be made at minimal cost to help our indigenous community take ownership and control of the issues that plague it. But it needs a shift in attitude from some of our elected representatives to move them along.

And it wouldn't hurt for some of our politicians and media representatives to start by being a little more truthful in their commentaries on matters such as this. That wouldn't cost anything.

I think you make very accurate and honest points tigger,also in this day and age it doesn't matter your heritage,bakground or culture we are in a multicultural society and the majority of our communities live along side of each other,respect each other and look after each other..in my opinion the BLM movement is trying to make a divide and if we are strong enough we wont let that happen,sure understand their issues respect what they are saying but don't let them stand over us because of historical short comings that are in our past...its important to all of us...
My parents were immigrants from war torn Europe but I was born here and you couldn't get a bloke more Australian than myself being raised in the Aussie culture by my parents who were refered to as foriegners,wogs and daigos,but that didn't deter them from calling Australia home and not only adapting to Aust culture and society but help build what we have now eg Snowy River Scheme,Raiways and other industries and infrastructure..
the main point Im making is we are all in this country together and it is us sticking up for each other and being one is when we have strength,I don't want to see BLM come between any of us particularly splitting Indigenous people and white people..

That's an interesting perspective TT. I didn't see the BLM movement in Australia as being particularly divisive (not counting their irresponsible march in the middle of a pandemic) although undoubtedly there are some individuals who are more aggressive in their approach than I would like to see. I guess that's the norm with protest groups. Not everyone associated with them has the same agenda.

If you feel that their agenda is divisive then that's what it is for you.

The struggle that our indigenous communities face is not owned by the BLM movement. I think their struggle is an important one. They're coming from a long way behind on a whole range of issues including health, education, domestic violence etc and they need a hand up.

I myself am a second generation Australian of Irish descent. I guess I was brought up on stories of racial discrimination and the effects the hunger years (note: not a famine) which decimated the population of my grandparents' homeland.

 

[TrueTiger]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

Problem is Zig when a movement gets too large it's scope increases with it. The BLM movement is the sum of it's parts. Some within the movement call for the defunding of police, others just want cops who kill without restraint prosecuted. Any large decentralised movement without structured leadership will wind up having conflicting goals. The other issue with popular movements is they have slogans and an overarching goal, but little idea of how to achieve it.

For example, I am generally opposed to any environmental policy that is considered "anti-climate change." We saw a range of people march, kids strike from school etc in order to make a statement about action on climate change. Ask a large range of those people how they would go about achieving it, and they wouldn't be able to answer. Making minimum solar requirements a part of BASIX laws (and whatever comparative relevant interstate legislation,) an end to coal subsidy, institution of plantations to make up lost bushland in the Sydney basin, imposition of synthetic refrigerant tariffs based on GWP are just some ideas on how I think it should be tackled. I think there's huge potential for Australia to become an solar energy farm for South East Asia. Free power for Australia, and exportation to China and India for a price. That would reduce running costs for manufacturing in Australia which could also see a return of a local industry. A large solar industry would require more skilled tradespeople as well increasing jobs.

Also, regarding education of black children, read into the community programmes the Black Panther party instituted in the US and the lengths that the Hoover led CIA went to squash it. Community education programmes, feeding kids breakfast etc, all these were deemed as internal security threats. There has been a lot of horrific treatment of black Americans, especially when they just tried to better themselves and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I completely see your points CB,however I would just like to mention in regard to our indigenous people and step aside from US black community for a moment,when I was in Wagga playing football and working I had numerous indigenous friends,there was also a lot of indigenous people in special housing sections in Wagga just for the indigenous community who couldn't afford housing..
Some of these houses were trashed,broken into and some set fire to,now why would you do that if you were a person that respected that you were given something that you didn't have to earn,by the whole of the community not just indigenous.?
The other example I will give ...a man mowed his lawn in one of the suburbs,he washed his mower and left it out in his front yard to dry and went in for a cold drink,as he came out he found 4 indigenous people taking his mower and driving off with it ,he got the rego and rang the police,he was told to go to the indigenous admin centre and make a complaint …
the answer he was given is this""how much is your mower worth""he said about $400,then and there they wrote him out a cheque for that amount and said "here you are go buy a new one...
there was no offer to penalise the offenders and the police had to refer him to the indigenous admin for them to handle it...there in lies some of the problem,the police couldn't even prosecute because they were indigenous..so this is where a lot of the problems arise...

It goes to show generations of government simply sweeping the problem under the rug by simply throwing money at it, instead of investing in legitimate generational change through positive action.

Exactly. I'm all for doing whatever we can, but, clearly throwing money at it over and over hasn't worked. In the end, if you don't want to help yourself, nobody else can help you. The problem is how do you get people to help themselves? ( any colour)

That's the big question really isn't it and there clearly isn't one answer fits all. No matter what is tried, the people at the pointy end of, for want of a better term, the social experiment will be the guinea pigs that will be disadvantaged the most and as such in the short term it will be seen as victimization because of reasons A, B and C......but nothing will be perfect the first time around and needs time to be corrected.

Don't get me wrong here Oz,but the problem I think all evolves around weak govts in past eras have given in to the tough questions asked and solved it by monetary answers..
There wasn't the work for what you get and if you need help we are here for you,which in turn created the welfare system,not just for people who really needed it but for others who took advantage of it and nothing was really objected to by the outer community because those that took advantage were indigenous people and their generations became comfortable on the system..
So my argument isn't about race or colour its about the fairness...We did have an Aboriginal Affairs office set up just for the indigenous to get what they needed when they needed it and there is the start of reliance on the system..so we were fair to our indigenous people and found a solution for them to get by and survive..

I think that's part of the issue TT. These problems are never going to be solved by standing back and throwing money at them. And,yes, the problems have to be owned and addressed by aboriginal people. But governments do need to facilitate that.

I'd like to see some changes in attitude, particularly from the right of the political spectrum.

The statement from the heart recommended that an indigenous advisory group be elected to provide advice to parliament on indigenous affairs. The idea was a bit vague in that it didn't detail how these representatives would be chosen or elected, but it wasn't a bad idea and it's been totally misrepresented by the right as being a "separate chamber of government for aboriginal people". A lot of people in Australia now believe that to be true, but it's just a load of rubbish!

What has been proposed is an advisory group that reports to the parliament. Parliament would be free to accept or reject the advice from that group. The key difference is that previous Indigenous Affairs offices have been appointed by one government and subsequently dismissed or de-funded by subsequent governments. Sometimes for good reasons (ATSIC) and sometimes just for ideological reasons. By having a body that is directly responsible to parliament, it cannot simply be dismissed by an incoming government with a different political ideology.

So there are important changes that can be made at minimal cost to help our indigenous community take ownership and control of the issues that plague it. But it needs a shift in attitude from some of our elected representatives to move them along.

And it wouldn't hurt for some of our politicians and media representatives to start by being a little more truthful in their commentaries on matters such as this. That wouldn't cost anything.

I think you make very accurate and honest points tigger,also in this day and age it doesn't matter your heritage,bakground or culture we are in a multicultural society and the majority of our communities live along side of each other,respect each other and look after each other..in my opinion the BLM movement is trying to make a divide and if we are strong enough we wont let that happen,sure understand their issues respect what they are saying but don't let them stand over us because of historical short comings that are in our past...its important to all of us...
My parents were immigrants from war torn Europe but I was born here and you couldn't get a bloke more Australian than myself being raised in the Aussie culture by my parents who were refered to as foriegners,wogs and daigos,but that didn't deter them from calling Australia home and not only adapting to Aust culture and society but help build what we have now eg Snowy River Scheme,Raiways and other industries and infrastructure..
the main point Im making is we are all in this country together and it is us sticking up for each other and being one is when we have strength,I don't want to see BLM come between any of us particularly splitting Indigenous people and white people..

That's an interesting perspective TT. I didn't see the BLM movement in Australia as being particularly divisive (not counting their irresponsible march in the middle of a pandemic) although undoubtedly there are some individuals who are more aggressive in their approach than I would like to see. I guess that's the norm with protest groups. Not everyone associated with them has the same agenda.

If you feel that their agenda is divisive then that's what it is for you.

The struggle that our indigenous communities face is not owned by the BLM movement. I think their struggle is an important one. They're coming from a long way behind on a whole range of issues including health, education, domestic violence etc and they need a hand up.

I myself am a second generation Australian of Irish descent. I guess I was brought up on stories of racial discrimination and the effects the hunger years (note: not a famine) which decimated the population of my grandparents' homeland.

Totally agree with everything you have said tigger,I also firmly believe that our indigenous people should be given a hell of a lot more help in regard to health,education,domestic violence etc..we cant do it for them they must be prepared to do the hard yards as well after all we are all equal as far as Im concerned..the trouble is some extremists so to speak will say that we are favouring them,when all we are doing is giving them an equal chance to get ahead...

 

[Tiger5150]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

Problem is Zig when a movement gets too large it's scope increases with it. The BLM movement is the sum of it's parts. Some within the movement call for the defunding of police, others just want cops who kill without restraint prosecuted. Any large decentralised movement without structured leadership will wind up having conflicting goals. The other issue with popular movements is they have slogans and an overarching goal, but little idea of how to achieve it.

For example, I am generally opposed to any environmental policy that is considered "anti-climate change." We saw a range of people march, kids strike from school etc in order to make a statement about action on climate change. Ask a large range of those people how they would go about achieving it, and they wouldn't be able to answer. Making minimum solar requirements a part of BASIX laws (and whatever comparative relevant interstate legislation,) an end to coal subsidy, institution of plantations to make up lost bushland in the Sydney basin, imposition of synthetic refrigerant tariffs based on GWP are just some ideas on how I think it should be tackled. I think there's huge potential for Australia to become an solar energy farm for South East Asia. Free power for Australia, and exportation to China and India for a price. That would reduce running costs for manufacturing in Australia which could also see a return of a local industry. A large solar industry would require more skilled tradespeople as well increasing jobs.

Also, regarding education of black children, read into the community programmes the Black Panther party instituted in the US and the lengths that the Hoover led CIA went to squash it. Community education programmes, feeding kids breakfast etc, all these were deemed as internal security threats. There has been a lot of horrific treatment of black Americans, especially when they just tried to better themselves and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I completely see your points CB,however I would just like to mention in regard to our indigenous people and step aside from US black community for a moment,when I was in Wagga playing football and working I had numerous indigenous friends,there was also a lot of indigenous people in special housing sections in Wagga just for the indigenous community who couldn't afford housing..
Some of these houses were trashed,broken into and some set fire to,now why would you do that if you were a person that respected that you were given something that you didn't have to earn,by the whole of the community not just indigenous.?
The other example I will give ...a man mowed his lawn in one of the suburbs,he washed his mower and left it out in his front yard to dry and went in for a cold drink,as he came out he found 4 indigenous people taking his mower and driving off with it ,he got the rego and rang the police,he was told to go to the indigenous admin centre and make a complaint …
the answer he was given is this""how much is your mower worth""he said about $400,then and there they wrote him out a cheque for that amount and said "here you are go buy a new one...
there was no offer to penalise the offenders and the police had to refer him to the indigenous admin for them to handle it...there in lies some of the problem,the police couldn't even prosecute because they were indigenous..so this is where a lot of the problems arise...

It goes to show generations of government simply sweeping the problem under the rug by simply throwing money at it, instead of investing in legitimate generational change through positive action.

Exactly. I'm all for doing whatever we can, but, clearly throwing money at it over and over hasn't worked. In the end, if you don't want to help yourself, nobody else can help you. The problem is how do you get people to help themselves? ( any colour)

That's the big question really isn't it and there clearly isn't one answer fits all. No matter what is tried, the people at the pointy end of, for want of a better term, the social experiment will be the guinea pigs that will be disadvantaged the most and as such in the short term it will be seen as victimization because of reasons A, B and C......but nothing will be perfect the first time around and needs time to be corrected.

Don't get me wrong here Oz,but the problem I think all evolves around weak govts in past eras have given in to the tough questions asked and solved it by monetary answers..
There wasn't the work for what you get and if you need help we are here for you,which in turn created the welfare system,not just for people who really needed it but for others who took advantage of it and nothing was really objected to by the outer community because those that took advantage were indigenous people and their generations became comfortable on the system..
So my argument isn't about race or colour its about the fairness...We did have an Aboriginal Affairs office set up just for the indigenous to get what they needed when they needed it and there is the start of reliance on the system..so we were fair to our indigenous people and found a solution for them to get by and survive..

I think that's part of the issue TT. These problems are never going to be solved by standing back and throwing money at them. And,yes, the problems have to be owned and addressed by aboriginal people. But governments do need to facilitate that.

I'd like to see some changes in attitude, particularly from the right of the political spectrum.

The statement from the heart recommended that an indigenous advisory group be elected to provide advice to parliament on indigenous affairs. The idea was a bit vague in that it didn't detail how these representatives would be chosen or elected, but it wasn't a bad idea and it's been totally misrepresented by the right as being a "separate chamber of government for aboriginal people". A lot of people in Australia now believe that to be true, but it's just a load of rubbish!

What has been proposed is an advisory group that reports to the parliament. Parliament would be free to accept or reject the advice from that group. The key difference is that previous Indigenous Affairs offices have been appointed by one government and subsequently dismissed or de-funded by subsequent governments. Sometimes for good reasons (ATSIC) and sometimes just for ideological reasons. By having a body that is directly responsible to parliament, it cannot simply be dismissed by an incoming government with a different political ideology.

So there are important changes that can be made at minimal cost to help our indigenous community take ownership and control of the issues that plague it. But it needs a shift in attitude from some of our elected representatives to move them along.

And it wouldn't hurt for some of our politicians and media representatives to start by being a little more truthful in their commentaries on matters such as this. That wouldn't cost anything.

I think you make very accurate and honest points tigger,also in this day and age it doesn't matter your heritage,bakground or culture we are in a multicultural society and the majority of our communities live along side of each other,respect each other and look after each other..in my opinion the BLM movement is trying to make a divide and if we are strong enough we wont let that happen,sure understand their issues respect what they are saying but don't let them stand over us because of historical short comings that are in our past...its important to all of us...
My parents were immigrants from war torn Europe but I was born here and you couldn't get a bloke more Australian than myself being raised in the Aussie culture by my parents who were refered to as foriegners,wogs and daigos,but that didn't deter them from calling Australia home and not only adapting to Aust culture and society but help build what we have now eg Snowy River Scheme,Raiways and other industries and infrastructure..
the main point Im making is we are all in this country together and it is us sticking up for each other and being one is when we have strength,I don't want to see BLM come between any of us particularly splitting Indigenous people and white people..

That's an interesting perspective TT. I didn't see the BLM movement in Australia as being particularly divisive (not counting their irresponsible march in the middle of a pandemic) although undoubtedly there are some individuals who are more aggressive in their approach than I would like to see. I guess that's the norm with protest groups. Not everyone associated with them has the same agenda.

If you feel that their agenda is divisive then that's what it is for you.

The struggle that our indigenous communities face is not owned by the BLM movement. I think their struggle is an important one. They're coming from a long way behind on a whole range of issues including health, education, domestic violence etc and they need a hand up.

I myself am a second generation Australian of Irish descent. I guess I was brought up on stories of racial discrimination and the effects the hunger years (note: not a famine) which decimated the population of my grandparents' homeland.

Totally agree with everything you have said tigger,I also firmly believe that our indigenous people should be given a hell of a lot more help in regard to health,education,domestic violence etc..we cant do it for them they must be prepared to do the hard yards as well after all we are all equal as far as Im concerned..the trouble is some extremists so to speak will say that we are favouring them,when all we are doing is giving them an equal chance to get ahead...

Also the issue of what our "indigenous people" are. Massive difference between remote communities and inner city.

 

[TrueTiger]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

Problem is Zig when a movement gets too large it's scope increases with it. The BLM movement is the sum of it's parts. Some within the movement call for the defunding of police, others just want cops who kill without restraint prosecuted. Any large decentralised movement without structured leadership will wind up having conflicting goals. The other issue with popular movements is they have slogans and an overarching goal, but little idea of how to achieve it.

For example, I am generally opposed to any environmental policy that is considered "anti-climate change." We saw a range of people march, kids strike from school etc in order to make a statement about action on climate change. Ask a large range of those people how they would go about achieving it, and they wouldn't be able to answer. Making minimum solar requirements a part of BASIX laws (and whatever comparative relevant interstate legislation,) an end to coal subsidy, institution of plantations to make up lost bushland in the Sydney basin, imposition of synthetic refrigerant tariffs based on GWP are just some ideas on how I think it should be tackled. I think there's huge potential for Australia to become an solar energy farm for South East Asia. Free power for Australia, and exportation to China and India for a price. That would reduce running costs for manufacturing in Australia which could also see a return of a local industry. A large solar industry would require more skilled tradespeople as well increasing jobs.

Also, regarding education of black children, read into the community programmes the Black Panther party instituted in the US and the lengths that the Hoover led CIA went to squash it. Community education programmes, feeding kids breakfast etc, all these were deemed as internal security threats. There has been a lot of horrific treatment of black Americans, especially when they just tried to better themselves and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I completely see your points CB,however I would just like to mention in regard to our indigenous people and step aside from US black community for a moment,when I was in Wagga playing football and working I had numerous indigenous friends,there was also a lot of indigenous people in special housing sections in Wagga just for the indigenous community who couldn't afford housing..
Some of these houses were trashed,broken into and some set fire to,now why would you do that if you were a person that respected that you were given something that you didn't have to earn,by the whole of the community not just indigenous.?
The other example I will give ...a man mowed his lawn in one of the suburbs,he washed his mower and left it out in his front yard to dry and went in for a cold drink,as he came out he found 4 indigenous people taking his mower and driving off with it ,he got the rego and rang the police,he was told to go to the indigenous admin centre and make a complaint …
the answer he was given is this""how much is your mower worth""he said about $400,then and there they wrote him out a cheque for that amount and said "here you are go buy a new one...
there was no offer to penalise the offenders and the police had to refer him to the indigenous admin for them to handle it...there in lies some of the problem,the police couldn't even prosecute because they were indigenous..so this is where a lot of the problems arise...

It goes to show generations of government simply sweeping the problem under the rug by simply throwing money at it, instead of investing in legitimate generational change through positive action.

Exactly. I'm all for doing whatever we can, but, clearly throwing money at it over and over hasn't worked. In the end, if you don't want to help yourself, nobody else can help you. The problem is how do you get people to help themselves? ( any colour)

That's the big question really isn't it and there clearly isn't one answer fits all. No matter what is tried, the people at the pointy end of, for want of a better term, the social experiment will be the guinea pigs that will be disadvantaged the most and as such in the short term it will be seen as victimization because of reasons A, B and C......but nothing will be perfect the first time around and needs time to be corrected.

Don't get me wrong here Oz,but the problem I think all evolves around weak govts in past eras have given in to the tough questions asked and solved it by monetary answers..
There wasn't the work for what you get and if you need help we are here for you,which in turn created the welfare system,not just for people who really needed it but for others who took advantage of it and nothing was really objected to by the outer community because those that took advantage were indigenous people and their generations became comfortable on the system..
So my argument isn't about race or colour its about the fairness...We did have an Aboriginal Affairs office set up just for the indigenous to get what they needed when they needed it and there is the start of reliance on the system..so we were fair to our indigenous people and found a solution for them to get by and survive..

I think that's part of the issue TT. These problems are never going to be solved by standing back and throwing money at them. And,yes, the problems have to be owned and addressed by aboriginal people. But governments do need to facilitate that.

I'd like to see some changes in attitude, particularly from the right of the political spectrum.

The statement from the heart recommended that an indigenous advisory group be elected to provide advice to parliament on indigenous affairs. The idea was a bit vague in that it didn't detail how these representatives would be chosen or elected, but it wasn't a bad idea and it's been totally misrepresented by the right as being a "separate chamber of government for aboriginal people". A lot of people in Australia now believe that to be true, but it's just a load of rubbish!

What has been proposed is an advisory group that reports to the parliament. Parliament would be free to accept or reject the advice from that group. The key difference is that previous Indigenous Affairs offices have been appointed by one government and subsequently dismissed or de-funded by subsequent governments. Sometimes for good reasons (ATSIC) and sometimes just for ideological reasons. By having a body that is directly responsible to parliament, it cannot simply be dismissed by an incoming government with a different political ideology.

So there are important changes that can be made at minimal cost to help our indigenous community take ownership and control of the issues that plague it. But it needs a shift in attitude from some of our elected representatives to move them along.

And it wouldn't hurt for some of our politicians and media representatives to start by being a little more truthful in their commentaries on matters such as this. That wouldn't cost anything.

I think you make very accurate and honest points tigger,also in this day and age it doesn't matter your heritage,bakground or culture we are in a multicultural society and the majority of our communities live along side of each other,respect each other and look after each other..in my opinion the BLM movement is trying to make a divide and if we are strong enough we wont let that happen,sure understand their issues respect what they are saying but don't let them stand over us because of historical short comings that are in our past...its important to all of us...
My parents were immigrants from war torn Europe but I was born here and you couldn't get a bloke more Australian than myself being raised in the Aussie culture by my parents who were refered to as foriegners,wogs and daigos,but that didn't deter them from calling Australia home and not only adapting to Aust culture and society but help build what we have now eg Snowy River Scheme,Raiways and other industries and infrastructure..
the main point Im making is we are all in this country together and it is us sticking up for each other and being one is when we have strength,I don't want to see BLM come between any of us particularly splitting Indigenous people and white people..

That's an interesting perspective TT. I didn't see the BLM movement in Australia as being particularly divisive (not counting their irresponsible march in the middle of a pandemic) although undoubtedly there are some individuals who are more aggressive in their approach than I would like to see. I guess that's the norm with protest groups. Not everyone associated with them has the same agenda.

If you feel that their agenda is divisive then that's what it is for you.

The struggle that our indigenous communities face is not owned by the BLM movement. I think their struggle is an important one. They're coming from a long way behind on a whole range of issues including health, education, domestic violence etc and they need a hand up.

I myself am a second generation Australian of Irish descent. I guess I was brought up on stories of racial discrimination and the effects the hunger years (note: not a famine) which decimated the population of my grandparents' homeland.

Totally agree with everything you have said tigger,I also firmly believe that our indigenous people should be given a hell of a lot more help in regard to health,education,domestic violence etc..we cant do it for them they must be prepared to do the hard yards as well after all we are all equal as far as Im concerned..the trouble is some extremists so to speak will say that we are favouring them,when all we are doing is giving them an equal chance to get ahead...


Also the issue of what our "indigenous people" are. Massive difference between remote communities and inner city.

Yes I do agree Tigers5150,I was told many years ago that the elders of the indigenous community have grown to understand what our country is and are happy to share not only the country but culture as well...its the educated ones that think they are hard done by are the ones who are trying to reflect their behaviour being caused by the white people,such as alcoholism ,domestic violence and drug addiction...all valid arguments as such,but any person of what ever skin colour or culture knows RIGHT from WRONG...

 

[Tim Sheens]

The following video puts things even further into perspective for mine and I have witnessed it in many cultures.

https://www.facebook.com/viola.davis/videos/2460522970905791/


What is the point the video, and you by extension are trying to make? That Indians are racist?

Decipher it as being however you wish.


Im not being smart about it FG, I was interested in your take on it.

The video is well made and is powerfully emotive, but all of the examples he gave to justify his discussion were specific to indians/pakistanis. At the end of the video he lists "solutions", which I give him credit for because most of these types of videos just b***h about the problem, not provide the solution. Trouble is most of his solutions either have happened already or will happen regardless. "Prosecute the police".....already done..."Vote"....will happen regardless.

"Demilitarise the police"? You cant demilitarise/reduce/defund/abolish police and also laugh at Lawyers holding guns on their front lawns. Pick one.

Well, further than his specific cultural references, I also heard him talking to you and I, as well as all the other cultures and officials. To drivers of change, the ingrained systematic racism and the lack of further change over the decades and a call to all to make an effort to support structural change, both societal and of policing practices.

As for the pair with fingers on the triggers of firing ready guns, they should feel the full force of the law for threatening people walking past whilst brandishing them outside of their house.

I not only think they can defund the police, I feel it is long overdue. Policing and detention have become industries there, particularly booming when there was the concurrent Iran-Contra situation and the war on drugs that was started upon the huge influx of cocaine that created the crack problem. I looked upon that in disbelief as a teenager and was aghast as a young adult when more information came out.

Similar to enforcing prohibition policies, a stomping on style and excessive force approach to many mental health situations or other circumstances at which policing is often not suited or even required, such as a small amount of "weed", simply does not work for society in general.

Back to the video, I have no doubt that it is relevant to our country as well.

 

[TillLindemann]

I have been steering clear of giving my opinion in regard to the BLM movement in case some take offence to what I say but here goes...
I read today that Patty Mills the NBA star who plays for Orlando in USA,has donated the rest of this seasons salary to the BLM in Australia he is an indigenous player...
Its his money and he can give it to whoever he wants,but here is my input and what I would do if I was in his position of earning what he does and can donate what he does,I have said many times that the children in Westmead who are undergoing treatment for numerous types of cancer are given a chance to overcome the illness and get a chance at life itself..the research is ongoing and needs much money to keep finding new treatments and cures,thats what I would donate to...
In having said that,the BLM is about black deaths in custody,this is where some will take offence,it is of my opinion if you are in custody or incarcerated then you must have done something wrong to be in that position irrespective of drugs.murder,rape or home invasion..all of these are wrong..
If a person is killed in custody or murdered by a police officer than it must be investigated and treated justifiably ...for the officer to have done that then he must have had a reason which we could argue all day about...however my whole point is that the children in Westmead are trying to survive a life threatening disease,their lives are still infront of them..
Blacks,Whites,Yellow,Green or what ever colour that are in custody are old enough to know whats right and whats wrong especially if they are 18 and older,Im not talking about minors in this example..
My whole point is if BLM get all this donated money why don't they spend it on educating and helping the Black community to stay OUT OF CUSTODY and on the right side of the law???
I still would put my resources into helping the children not someone of any colour to get out of trouble when they have got there themselves...

Problem is Zig when a movement gets too large it's scope increases with it. The BLM movement is the sum of it's parts. Some within the movement call for the defunding of police, others just want cops who kill without restraint prosecuted. Any large decentralised movement without structured leadership will wind up having conflicting goals. The other issue with popular movements is they have slogans and an overarching goal, but little idea of how to achieve it.

For example, I am generally opposed to any environmental policy that is considered "anti-climate change." We saw a range of people march, kids strike from school etc in order to make a statement about action on climate change. Ask a large range of those people how they would go about achieving it, and they wouldn't be able to answer. Making minimum solar requirements a part of BASIX laws (and whatever comparative relevant interstate legislation,) an end to coal subsidy, institution of plantations to make up lost bushland in the Sydney basin, imposition of synthetic refrigerant tariffs based on GWP are just some ideas on how I think it should be tackled. I think there's huge potential for Australia to become an solar energy farm for South East Asia. Free power for Australia, and exportation to China and India for a price. That would reduce running costs for manufacturing in Australia which could also see a return of a local industry. A large solar industry would require more skilled tradespeople as well increasing jobs.

Also, regarding education of black children, read into the community programmes the Black Panther party instituted in the US and the lengths that the Hoover led CIA went to squash it. Community education programmes, feeding kids breakfast etc, all these were deemed as internal security threats. There has been a lot of horrific treatment of black Americans, especially when they just tried to better themselves and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I completely see your points CB,however I would just like to mention in regard to our indigenous people and step aside from US black community for a moment,when I was in Wagga playing football and working I had numerous indigenous friends,there was also a lot of indigenous people in special housing sections in Wagga just for the indigenous community who couldn't afford housing..
Some of these houses were trashed,broken into and some set fire to,now why would you do that if you were a person that respected that you were given something that you didn't have to earn,by the whole of the community not just indigenous.?
The other example I will give ...a man mowed his lawn in one of the suburbs,he washed his mower and left it out in his front yard to dry and went in for a cold drink,as he came out he found 4 indigenous people taking his mower and driving off with it ,he got the rego and rang the police,he was told to go to the indigenous admin centre and make a complaint …
the answer he was given is this""how much is your mower worth""he said about $400,then and there they wrote him out a cheque for that amount and said "here you are go buy a new one...
there was no offer to penalise the offenders and the police had to refer him to the indigenous admin for them to handle it...there in lies some of the problem,the police couldn't even prosecute because they were indigenous..so this is where a lot of the problems arise...

It goes to show generations of government simply sweeping the problem under the rug by simply throwing money at it, instead of investing in legitimate generational change through positive action.

Exactly. I'm all for doing whatever we can, but, clearly throwing money at it over and over hasn't worked. In the end, if you don't want to help yourself, nobody else can help you. The problem is how do you get people to help themselves? ( any colour)

That's the big question really isn't it and there clearly isn't one answer fits all. No matter what is tried, the people at the pointy end of, for want of a better term, the social experiment will be the guinea pigs that will be disadvantaged the most and as such in the short term it will be seen as victimization because of reasons A, B and C......but nothing will be perfect the first time around and needs time to be corrected.

Don't get me wrong here Oz,but the problem I think all evolves around weak govts in past eras have given in to the tough questions asked and solved it by monetary answers..
There wasn't the work for what you get and if you need help we are here for you,which in turn created the welfare system,not just for people who really needed it but for others who took advantage of it and nothing was really objected to by the outer community because those that took advantage were indigenous people and their generations became comfortable on the system..
So my argument isn't about race or colour its about the fairness...We did have an Aboriginal Affairs office set up just for the indigenous to get what they needed when they needed it and there is the start of reliance on the system..so we were fair to our indigenous people and found a solution for them to get by and survive..

I think that's part of the issue TT. These problems are never going to be solved by standing back and throwing money at them. And,yes, the problems have to be owned and addressed by aboriginal people. But governments do need to facilitate that.

I'd like to see some changes in attitude, particularly from the right of the political spectrum.

The statement from the heart recommended that an indigenous advisory group be elected to provide advice to parliament on indigenous affairs. The idea was a bit vague in that it didn't detail how these representatives would be chosen or elected, but it wasn't a bad idea and it's been totally misrepresented by the right as being a "separate chamber of government for aboriginal people". A lot of people in Australia now believe that to be true, but it's just a load of rubbish!

What has been proposed is an advisory group that reports to the parliament. Parliament would be free to accept or reject the advice from that group. The key difference is that previous Indigenous Affairs offices have been appointed by one government and subsequently dismissed or de-funded by subsequent governments. Sometimes for good reasons (ATSIC) and sometimes just for ideological reasons. By having a body that is directly responsible to parliament, it cannot simply be dismissed by an incoming government with a different political ideology.

So there are important changes that can be made at minimal cost to help our indigenous community take ownership and control of the issues that plague it. But it needs a shift in attitude from some of our elected representatives to move them along.

And it wouldn't hurt for some of our politicians and media representatives to start by being a little more truthful in their commentaries on matters such as this. That wouldn't cost anything.

I think you make very accurate and honest points tigger,also in this day and age it doesn't matter your heritage,bakground or culture we are in a multicultural society and the majority of our communities live along side of each other,respect each other and look after each other..in my opinion the BLM movement is trying to make a divide and if we are strong enough we wont let that happen,sure understand their issues respect what they are saying but don't let them stand over us because of historical short comings that are in our past...its important to all of us...
My parents were immigrants from war torn Europe but I was born here and you couldn't get a bloke more Australian than myself being raised in the Aussie culture by my parents who were refered to as foriegners,wogs and daigos,but that didn't deter them from calling Australia home and not only adapting to Aust culture and society but help build what we have now eg Snowy River Scheme,Raiways and other industries and infrastructure..
the main point Im making is we are all in this country together and it is us sticking up for each other and being one is when we have strength,I don't want to see BLM come between any of us particularly splitting Indigenous people and white people..

That's an interesting perspective TT. I didn't see the BLM movement in Australia as being particularly divisive (not counting their irresponsible march in the middle of a pandemic) although undoubtedly there are some individuals who are more aggressive in their approach than I would like to see. I guess that's the norm with protest groups. Not everyone associated with them has the same agenda.

If you feel that their agenda is divisive then that's what it is for you.

The struggle that our indigenous communities face is not owned by the BLM movement. I think their struggle is an important one. They're coming from a long way behind on a whole range of issues including health, education, domestic violence etc and they need a hand up.

I myself am a second generation Australian of Irish descent. I guess I was brought up on stories of racial discrimination and the effects the hunger years (note: not a famine) which decimated the population of my grandparents' homeland.

Totally agree with everything you have said tigger,I also firmly believe that our indigenous people should be given a hell of a lot more help in regard to health,education,domestic violence etc..we cant do it for them they must be prepared to do the hard yards as well after all we are all equal as far as Im concerned..the trouble is some extremists so to speak will say that we are favouring them,when all we are doing is giving them an equal chance to get ahead...


Also the issue of what our "indigenous people" are. Massive difference between remote communities and inner city.

Hear hear! This is why I hate the current media obsession with race. It assumes people have the same characteristics and lived experience just because of their skin colour. It is racism waving an anti-racist flag.

An aboriginal kid in Sydney has far more in common with any other kid in Sydney than they do with an Aboriginal kid living in a remote community. Just as you can't say a Ukrainian villager and a London banker have anything in common simply because they're white.

Judge people by their character not their race.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Character hmmm, this guy's is very poor on so many fronts, including the cross dresser on his Ukranian one.
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https://twitter.com/i/status/1281101973211672577
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https://twitter.com/i/status/1281064083756744705
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https://twitter.com/i/status/1281081507340152832

 

[TrueTiger]

The BLM movement can protest peacefully and voice their opinions openly and freely...unfortunately I think some people judge them because the disruptive criminal element use these type of protests to loot,damage and destroy peoples livelihood and get what they can and somehow feel entitled to do so …
There is absolutely no need to damage and pilfer to get a point across...I don't support BLM out of principle because to me EVERY life matters irrespective of circumstances...however the protesters with a genuine cause have a right,unfortunately the criminal element don't need an excuse or cause because to them what they do they seem to think its right...

 

[Tiger5150]

The BLM movement can protest peacefully and voice their opinions openly and freely...unfortunately I think some people judge them because the disruptive criminal element use these type of protests to loot,damage and destroy peoples livelihood and get what they can and somehow feel entitled to do so …
There is absolutely no need to damage and pilfer to get a point across...I don't support BLM out of principle because to me EVERY life matters irrespective of circumstances...however the protesters with a genuine cause have a right,unfortunately the criminal element don't need an excuse or cause because to them what they do they seem to think its right...

No, I judge them based out what they publish as their manifesto on their website and the words straight from the founders mouths. They are not hiding the ball but are riding a wave based on a Faustian word trap.

 

[TrueTiger]

The BLM movement can protest peacefully and voice their opinions openly and freely...unfortunately I think some people judge them because the disruptive criminal element use these type of protests to loot,damage and destroy peoples livelihood and get what they can and somehow feel entitled to do so …
There is absolutely no need to damage and pilfer to get a point across...I don't support BLM out of principle because to me EVERY life matters irrespective of circumstances...however the protesters with a genuine cause have a right,unfortunately the criminal element don't need an excuse or cause because to them what they do they seem to think its right...

No, I judge them based out what they publish as their manifesto on their website and the words straight from the founders mouths. They are not hiding the ball but are riding a wave based on a Faustian word trap.

I wasn't having a shot at you I was saying what someone said to me today while having a beer with friends..." the BLM 'came in the conversation and one of the guys said their only trouble makers looting and damaging good peoples businesses ...he didn't want to know that the protesters weren't the ones doing the looting...its the old adage "" tarred with the same brush""...

 

[Tiger5150]

The BLM movement can protest peacefully and voice their opinions openly and freely...unfortunately I think some people judge them because the disruptive criminal element use these type of protests to loot,damage and destroy peoples livelihood and get what they can and somehow feel entitled to do so …
There is absolutely no need to damage and pilfer to get a point across...I don't support BLM out of principle because to me EVERY life matters irrespective of circumstances...however the protesters with a genuine cause have a right,unfortunately the criminal element don't need an excuse or cause because to them what they do they seem to think its right...

No, I judge them based out what they publish as their manifesto on their website and the words straight from the founders mouths. They are not hiding the ball but are riding a wave based on a Faustian word trap.

I wasn't having a shot at you I was saying what someone said to me today while having a beer with friends..." the BLM 'came in the conversation and one of the guys said their only trouble makers looting and damaging good peoples businesses ...he didn't want to know that the protesters weren't the ones doing the looting...its the old adage "" tarred with the same brush""...

My point is more that most of the protesters don’t know what BLM stand for.

 

[TrueTiger]

The BLM movement can protest peacefully and voice their opinions openly and freely...unfortunately I think some people judge them because the disruptive criminal element use these type of protests to loot,damage and destroy peoples livelihood and get what they can and somehow feel entitled to do so …
There is absolutely no need to damage and pilfer to get a point across...I don't support BLM out of principle because to me EVERY life matters irrespective of circumstances...however the protesters with a genuine cause have a right,unfortunately the criminal element don't need an excuse or cause because to them what they do they seem to think its right...

No, I judge them based out what they publish as their manifesto on their website and the words straight from the founders mouths. They are not hiding the ball but are riding a wave based on a Faustian word trap.

I wasn't having a shot at you I was saying what someone said to me today while having a beer with friends..." the BLM 'came in the conversation and one of the guys said their only trouble makers looting and damaging good peoples businesses ...he didn't want to know that the protesters weren't the ones doing the looting...its the old adage "" tarred with the same brush""...

My point is more that most of the protesters don’t know what BLM stand for.

Why would they then go and protest something they have know idea about...is it a trend just to be out and be seen ??

 

[GNR4LIFE]

We got the meltdown of all meltdown’s this morning. Someone’s financial records might finally become public. Of course he has nothing to hide though. I mean why else would he meltdown? 🤔