Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[mike]

This is rather disturbing

The Federal Government passed a bill last Wednesday.  The Federal Police can now log into your social media, email ect.  Alter it the way they want and pretend to be you if they suspect you or “terrorism” or if they think you will do illegal activities.

Of course that won’t be abused, without accountability.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6623&fbclid=IwAR0vHYgJUIe5ZDISJFIHmt8lmY2AVS7yiMF0NJv2iCMcmLjSnSqM-xOytPU

By “your” you mean someone committing a relevant offence? You still Ned a warrant - those are more difficult to find obtain than most people think.

That’s the point they don’t have to be committing an offence anymore, the Feds only have to think they will. This is worse than phone tapping, they can actually impersonate you, change your settings, respond to emails as you. This will be abused. It is a gross invasion of privacy and goes beyond just surveillance.

TI and SD have always been suspected of committing a relevant offence. But you can’t just have a hunch you need to present some evidence for your suspicion. It’s one of the most scrutinised areas in the country.

Once you give law enforcement the ability to impersonate someone that is stepping over the line. That’s a whole new paradigm that is open to abuse like nothing before it. I’ll be making my view known at the next ballot.

You mean like deep undercover operatives? Police have always been able to do that. We’ll have to disagree on this - I’m for it.

Yes we disagree. Undercover operatives don’t impersonate you, they infiltrate using other means/identity. There is a huge difference.

I am vehemently opposed to giving law enforcement such sweeping powers.

The powers are sorely needed. You might have a different view if you knew how much damage is done to the Australian community and economy through cybercrime and the threats Australia faces on a daily basis. The problem is most of the community is uneducated on such issues until it directly affects them.

Nope, never will. It’s an abuse of power. We just disagree on this issue.

 

[trentrunciman]

Spy agencies have a long track record of abusing their power for political purposes, and they already have too much power.

Australia's (bipartisan) response to Snowden's revelations was to give even more power to such agencies, including passing the ridiculous metadata laws. 'Orwellian' gets over-used, but that law really is. A dragnet record of the electronic history of every single Australian, which if anything probably makes us less safe as it is a treasure trove of data that would attract foreign powers like China.

The power to impersonate people is the cherry on top.

Pros and Cons i think mate. The technology imo is there to make us much safer. Its a fine balance with issues like metadata biometrics etc. I think the pros outweigh the negatives. I'm against the McCarthyism type thoughts though "red under your bed" of the 60s views.

Edit: if you use whattaspp; sms; phone calls google, apps, Facebook (worst one) website visits its mandatory for telcos to retain your data for at least 2 years.


HA: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/help-support/meeting-our-requirements/biometrics

Was going to apply for a biometrics role here in canberra and was researching and it will eventually make our lives a lot easier. Paperless. Retina; finger print; etc etc

 

[Yossarian]

This is rather disturbing

The Federal Government passed a bill last Wednesday.  The Federal Police can now log into your social media, email ect.  Alter it the way they want and pretend to be you if they suspect you or “terrorism” or if they think you will do illegal activities.

Of course that won’t be abused, without accountability.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6623&fbclid=IwAR0vHYgJUIe5ZDISJFIHmt8lmY2AVS7yiMF0NJv2iCMcmLjSnSqM-xOytPU

By “your” you mean someone committing a relevant offence? You still Ned a warrant - those are more difficult to find obtain than most people think.

That’s the point they don’t have to be committing an offence anymore, the Feds only have to think they will. This is worse than phone tapping, they can actually impersonate you, change your settings, respond to emails as you. This will be abused. It is a gross invasion of privacy and goes beyond just surveillance.

TI and SD have always been suspected of committing a relevant offence. But you can’t just have a hunch you need to present some evidence for your suspicion. It’s one of the most scrutinised areas in the country.

Once you give law enforcement the ability to impersonate someone that is stepping over the line. That’s a whole new paradigm that is open to abuse like nothing before it. I’ll be making my view known at the next ballot.

You mean like deep undercover operatives? Police have always been able to do that. We’ll have to disagree on this - I’m for it.

Yes we disagree. Undercover operatives don’t impersonate you, they infiltrate using other means/identity. There is a huge difference.

I am vehemently opposed to giving law enforcement such sweeping powers.

The powers are sorely needed. You might have a different view if you knew how much damage is done to the Australian community and economy through cybercrime and the threats Australia faces on a daily basis. The problem is most of the community is uneducated on such issues until it directly affects them.

So, @willow what are your credentials to "educate" us on these matters?

Not for me to speak for Willow, however, I think you can be assured he speaks from a position of knowledge. I myself in a previous life spent a decent chunk of time working in this field.

 

[Guest]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

 

[mike]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t. They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely.

 

[Guest]

This is rather disturbing

The Federal Government passed a bill last Wednesday.  The Federal Police can now log into your social media, email ect.  Alter it the way they want and pretend to be you if they suspect you or “terrorism” or if they think you will do illegal activities.

Of course that won’t be abused, without accountability.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6623&fbclid=IwAR0vHYgJUIe5ZDISJFIHmt8lmY2AVS7yiMF0NJv2iCMcmLjSnSqM-xOytPU

By “your” you mean someone committing a relevant offence? You still Ned a warrant - those are more difficult to find obtain than most people think.

That’s the point they don’t have to be committing an offence anymore, the Feds only have to think they will. This is worse than phone tapping, they can actually impersonate you, change your settings, respond to emails as you. This will be abused. It is a gross invasion of privacy and goes beyond just surveillance.

TI and SD have always been suspected of committing a relevant offence. But you can’t just have a hunch you need to present some evidence for your suspicion. It’s one of the most scrutinised areas in the country.

Once you give law enforcement the ability to impersonate someone that is stepping over the line. That’s a whole new paradigm that is open to abuse like nothing before it. I’ll be making my view known at the next ballot.

You mean like deep undercover operatives? Police have always been able to do that. We’ll have to disagree on this - I’m for it.

Yes we disagree. Undercover operatives don’t impersonate you, they infiltrate using other means/identity. There is a huge difference.

I am vehemently opposed to giving law enforcement such sweeping powers.

The powers are sorely needed. You might have a different view if you knew how much damage is done to the Australian community and economy through cybercrime and the threats Australia faces on a daily basis. The problem is most of the community is uneducated on such issues until it directly affects them.

Nope, never will. It’s an abuse of power. We just disagree on this issue.

I hope you are never the victim of a cybercrime or other more nefarious computer crime such as child abuse Mike - that's exactly why these laws are being introduced. Abuse of power? Well yes, you got a chuckle out of me.

 

[TillLindemann]

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world.

That's what they said when the metadata laws were introduced back in 2014. Stringent oversight, its for national security, will only be used to stop terrorists, will only be accessed in rare instances etc.

nek minnit

Local councils have access and are using it to track down littering and dog poo suspects.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/councils-pry-into-residents-metadata-to-chase-down-fines-20181114-p50fxr.html

 

[Guest]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely. You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t.

Whatever you say Mike - if you knew of the threats faced by Australia on a global scale you would be shocked. These powers are aimed at combatting those threats.

 

[mike]

This is rather disturbing

The Federal Government passed a bill last Wednesday.  The Federal Police can now log into your social media, email ect.  Alter it the way they want and pretend to be you if they suspect you or “terrorism” or if they think you will do illegal activities.

Of course that won’t be abused, without accountability.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6623&fbclid=IwAR0vHYgJUIe5ZDISJFIHmt8lmY2AVS7yiMF0NJv2iCMcmLjSnSqM-xOytPU

By “your” you mean someone committing a relevant offence? You still Ned a warrant - those are more difficult to find obtain than most people think.

That’s the point they don’t have to be committing an offence anymore, the Feds only have to think they will. This is worse than phone tapping, they can actually impersonate you, change your settings, respond to emails as you. This will be abused. It is a gross invasion of privacy and goes beyond just surveillance.

TI and SD have always been suspected of committing a relevant offence. But you can’t just have a hunch you need to present some evidence for your suspicion. It’s one of the most scrutinised areas in the country.

Once you give law enforcement the ability to impersonate someone that is stepping over the line. That’s a whole new paradigm that is open to abuse like nothing before it. I’ll be making my view known at the next ballot.

You mean like deep undercover operatives? Police have always been able to do that. We’ll have to disagree on this - I’m for it.

Yes we disagree. Undercover operatives don’t impersonate you, they infiltrate using other means/identity. There is a huge difference.

I am vehemently opposed to giving law enforcement such sweeping powers.

The powers are sorely needed. You might have a different view if you knew how much damage is done to the Australian community and economy through cybercrime and the threats Australia faces on a daily basis. The problem is most of the community is uneducated on such issues until it directly affects them.

Nope, never will. It’s an abuse of power. We just disagree on this issue.

I hope you are never the victim of a cybercrime or other more nefarious computer crime such as child abuse Mike - that's exactly why these laws are being introduced. Abuse of power? Well yes, you got a chuckle out of me.

We’ll never agree on this one @willow. It’s a bridge to far for me.

 

[Tim Sheens]

What I was getting at earlier was more so just encouraging decent people amongst normal LNP supporters to not vote for Morrison and his cohort.

That doesn't mean that they have to vote for Labor or the Greens, just get rid of this man and the corrupt group amongst his team that are holding back our country, to help it return to it's former leading role in the world. Getting rid of Abbott and replacing him with Steggall being a good example.

 

[mike]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely. You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t.

Whatever you say Mike - if you knew of the threats faced by Australia on a global scale you would be shocked. These powers are aimed at combatting those threats.

I probably understand cyber threats more than most, especially those from China and Russia and other nations. It’s a week excuse for these changes.

 

[Guest]

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world.

That's what they said when the metadata laws were introduced back in 2014. Stringent oversight, its for national security, will only be used to stop terrorists, will only be accessed in rare instances etc.

nek minnit

Local councils have access and are using it to track down littering and dog poo suspects.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/councils-pry-into-residents-metadata-to-chase-down-fines-20181114-p50fxr.html

That's a load of crap too - Councils may have had the nerve to ask for such data, but they don't have the authority to get it under the telecommunications and surveillance device act - lots of nil results for them on that front. Requests for such data have to tie into serious criminal offences. Dogs taking a dump on council property doesn't cut it.

 

[Guest]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely. You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t.

Whatever you say Mike - if you knew of the threats faced by Australia on a global scale you would be shocked. These powers are aimed at combatting those threats.

I probably understand cyber threats more than most, especially those from China and Russia and other nations. It’s a week excuse for these changes.

I'll disagree with you on that Mike because two of the more recent jobs I've run have resulted in dead ends due to one of those countries in question and not having the legal means to pursue the matter any further. If these laws were available then, different story.

 

[TillLindemann]

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world.

That's what they said when the metadata laws were introduced back in 2014. Stringent oversight, its for national security, will only be used to stop terrorists, will only be accessed in rare instances etc.

nek minnit

Local councils have access and are using it to track down littering and dog poo suspects.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/councils-pry-into-residents-metadata-to-chase-down-fines-20181114-p50fxr.html

That's a load of crap too - Councils may have had the nerve to ask for such data, but they don't have the authority to get it under the telecommunications and surveillance device act - lots of nil results for them on that front. Requests for such data have to tie into serious criminal offences. Dogs taking a dump on council property doesn't cut it.

https://theconversation.com/think-your-metadata-is-only-visible-to-national-security-agencies-think-again-121253

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/councils-still-keen-to-keep-telco-metadata-on-tap-539846

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/home-affairs-could-tap-telcos-for-mac-and-ip-addresses-port-numbers-528298

 

[trentrunciman]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely. You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t.

Whatever you say Mike - if you knew of the threats faced by Australia on a global scale you would be shocked. These powers are aimed at combatting those threats.

I probably understand cyber threats more than most, especially those from China and Russia and other nations. It’s a week excuse for these changes.

think putin once said "anyone in living under their grandma's basement can have the capacity to hack", we just gotta becareful not to fall into this Thucydidesque Trap...

 

[mike]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely. You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t.

Whatever you say Mike - if you knew of the threats faced by Australia on a global scale you would be shocked. These powers are aimed at combatting those threats.

I probably understand cyber threats more than most, especially those from China and Russia and other nations. It’s a week excuse for these changes.

I'll disagree with you on that Mike because two of the more recent jobs I've run have resulted in dead ends due to one of those countries in question and not having the legal means to pursue the matter any further. If these laws were available then, different story.

We’ll disagree but I do appreciate the work you and your colleagues do.

 

[TillLindemann]

passive protest.turn off your computers/phones,stop paying bills ,moving money around via tech....DAAAA

Yeah but if the law enforcement can impersonate you using tech, the money you have moved by tech is not safe.

These powers cannot be used on ad nauseum as you seem to think.

When push comes to shove it will be abused by those with vested interests.

Nonsense, if you saw the mechanisms behind how these powers will be used, and the justification for doing so you would probably re-think your position. The reporting and oversight on how these powers will be used is among the most stringent of any in the country in the world. As far as the powers being abused by those with vested interests...if you're implying government officials, guess again. For an investigation to kick off, there are a whole raft of decision makers involved and we don't do it on a whim because of someone's 'vested interests' - it simply doesn't work that way.

They will whittle away at those requirements, slowly but surely. You may have faith in that process, I certainly don’t.

Whatever you say Mike - if you knew of the threats faced by Australia on a global scale you would be shocked. These powers are aimed at combatting those threats.

I probably understand cyber threats more than most, especially those from China and Russia and other nations. It’s a week excuse for these changes.

I'll disagree with you on that Mike because two of the more recent jobs I've run have resulted in dead ends due to one of those countries in question and not having the legal means to pursue the matter any further. If these laws were available then, different story.

We’ll disagree but I do appreciate the work you and your colleagues do.

Yes, likewise @willow
FWIW I have no issue with security legislation that is specifically aimed at foreign state actors, it is when it is aimed inwards at the citizenry that I ark up, where it can be potentially misused.

 

[Yossarian]

This is rather disturbing

The Federal Government passed a bill last Wednesday.  The Federal Police can now log into your social media, email ect.  Alter it the way they want and pretend to be you if they suspect you or “terrorism” or if they think you will do illegal activities.

Of course that won’t be abused, without accountability.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6623&fbclid=IwAR0vHYgJUIe5ZDISJFIHmt8lmY2AVS7yiMF0NJv2iCMcmLjSnSqM-xOytPU

By “your” you mean someone committing a relevant offence? You still Ned a warrant - those are more difficult to find obtain than most people think.

That’s the point they don’t have to be committing an offence anymore, the Feds only have to think they will. This is worse than phone tapping, they can actually impersonate you, change your settings, respond to emails as you. This will be abused. It is a gross invasion of privacy and goes beyond just surveillance.

TI and SD have always been suspected of committing a relevant offence. But you can’t just have a hunch you need to present some evidence for your suspicion. It’s one of the most scrutinised areas in the country.

Once you give law enforcement the ability to impersonate someone that is stepping over the line. That’s a whole new paradigm that is open to abuse like nothing before it. I’ll be making my view known at the next ballot.

You mean like deep undercover operatives? Police have always been able to do that. We’ll have to disagree on this - I’m for it.

Yes we disagree. Undercover operatives don’t impersonate you, they infiltrate using other means/identity. There is a huge difference.

I am vehemently opposed to giving law enforcement such sweeping powers.

The powers are sorely needed. You might have a different view if you knew how much damage is done to the Australian community and economy through cybercrime and the threats Australia faces on a daily basis. The problem is most of the community is uneducated on such issues until it directly affects them.

So, @willow what are your credentials to "educate" us on these matters?

Not for me to speak for Willow, however, I think you can be assured he speaks from a position of knowledge. I myself in a previous life spent a decent chunk of time working in this field.

Yep, and it's for us to accept what you write, or not.

You do what you want to do champ