Referendum 2023

[AmericanHistoryX]

Fair point. The determinants are the same for all. I only commented in the context of discussions about the referendum, and the fact these determinants disproportionately affect Aboriginal people.

Just them? How you doing? Your family and friends?

 

[earl]

I find the whole Indigenous deaths in custody focus as a strange one for the reasons you outlined. Indigenous people are overrepresented in those statistics because they are are so disproportionately incarcerated when compared to non-indigenous Australians. In my opinion the focus should be on the social determinants that are leading to that over-representation, rather than the actual deaths themselves.

I agree as well. If the issue isn't the number of deaths in custody since it's not too many dying in custody compared to the average person incarcerated well then the question is why are so many being incarcerated.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

The Voice will fix this. Without the referendum and a Yes they might continue to suffer.

 

[Betterdays22]

100%.

Indigenous people are massively overrepresented in prison and that is a massive national disgrace and problem, but it not because they are not committing crimes and its not for committing "trivial" crimes. The effort needs to be on the economic, social and cultural reasons that they over represent as offenders. Will the Voice address this? It might and there would be benefits to distilling indigenous representation....but to get the discussion back to topic, I am firmly of the opinion that it shouldn't be enshrined in the Constitution.

I've followed your points throughout and they are reasonable. There is such a wide range of reasons people are voting no. From people who are unequivocally believe it is racist in itself, to those who believe it is an okay idea but it shouldn't be included in the constitution. Considering this it seems like getting this over line was a pretty huge mountain to climb (especially looking at the history of referendums).

I will still be voting Yes. The plight of Indigenous Australians is not the fault of non-indigenous Australians, but I do believe it is a national shame. To me this is a small change with potential to provide a positive impact.

 

[earl]

To me this is a small change with potential to provide a positive impact.

This is the way I view it as well. It might be a tiny step forward. I also can't see the downside.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Dont let them tell you otherwise.

 

[earl]

The Voice will fix this. Without the referendum and a Yes they might continue to suffer.

No chance. No one can wave a magic wand and fix someone else's life. It's not possible. Plenty of people born into privilege do dumb stuff and plenty of people born dirt poor create great lives for themselves.

It's about trying to improve the way we as a society handle Indigenous issues.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

No chance. No one can wave a magic wand and fix someone else's life. It's not possible. Plenty of people born into privilege do dumb stuff and plenty of people born dirt poor create great lives for themselves.

It's about trying to improve the way we as a society handle Indigenous issues.

Looks like the referendum can. The magic wand.

 

[Betterdays22]

Looks like the referendum can. The magic wand.

I don't think there is anyone saying this. No one.

 

[earl]

Looks like the referendum can. The magic wand.

No chance. There is no magic wand.

There is a concept called definition of success. My expectation would be that the definition of success for the Voice would be twofold:-

1. Indigenous representation in our constitution. This is a given if it is successful which I don't think it will be.
2. Better outcomes from our Indigenous spend. This is going to be so hard to track and monitor. I'd be interested in how we judge this but I assume it'll be based on the closing the gap initiative. Then it comes down to a reasonable time frame for success. This is an issue in itself. You can't judge this over the next 6 months. It's a multi-generational issue.

I wouldn't get too worked up about this issue. A yes vote will not fix anyone's life and a no vote will not end the noise around this issue.

I'm still voting yes.

 

[TillLindemann]

This comes back to the "all lives matter" argument which I've previously posted about and in my opinion it is a terrible argument.

No it doesn't come back to that in any way. Earl I think Luke Brooks finally cooked your brain, you've apparently lost all mental processing capacity, you're spiralling down a chasm of insanity.

 

[earl]

No it doesn't come back to that in any way. Earl I think Luke Brooks finally cooked your brain, you've apparently lost all mental processing capacity, you're spiralling down a chasm of insanity.

Dude - can we not do this. It's all ad-hominen attacks and it's highly emotional. It's not required and in my opinion it's weird.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

No chance. There is no magic wand.

There is a concept called definition of success. My expectation would be that the definition of success for the Voice would be twofold:-

1. Indigenous representation in our constitution. This is a given if it is successful which I don't think it will be.
2. Better outcomes from our Indigenous spend. This is going to be so hard to track and monitor. I'd be interested in how we judge this but I assume it'll be based on the closing the gap initiative. Then it comes down to a reasonable time frame for success. This is an issue in itself. You can't judge this over the next 6 months. It's a multi-generational issue.

I wouldn't get too worked up about this issue. A yes vote will not fix anyone's life and a no vote will not end the noise around this issue.

I'm still voting yes.

Im voting Yes for you. I cannot disagree with your life. Your choices. Hope it all works out Thats all. In the end - we all want to sleep tight irrespective of colour or denomination. Wasn't that how it was supposed to be in the beginning.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I've followed your points throughout and they are reasonable. There is such a wide range of reasons people are voting no. From people who are unequivocally believe it is racist in itself, to those who believe it is an okay idea but it shouldn't be included in the constitution. Considering this it seems like getting this over line was a pretty huge mountain to climb (especially looking at the history of referendums).

I will still be voting Yes. The plight of Indigenous Australians is not the fault of non-indigenous Australians, but I do believe it is a national shame. To me this is a small change with potential to provide a positive impact.

Bravo to you Weary for being able to actually discuss the issues, listen to both sides and make your point without name calling

 

[TillLindemann]

Dude - can we not do this. It's all ad-hominen attacks and it's highly emotional. It's not required and in my opinion it's weird.

Cooked

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Bravo to you Weary for being able to actually discuss the issues, listen to both sides and make your point without name calling

Bravo to both of you.

 

[earl]

Cooked

I was going to call out the cookers again but I deliberately didn't. The emotional ranting is definitely a cooker behavior.

Facts and calm logical discussions are the only thing worth participating in.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Dude - can we not do this. It's all ad-hominen attacks and it's highly emotional. It's not required and in my opinion it's weird.

Says the bloke who called me intellectually dishonest and acting in bad faith despite the fact that I did what you said I didnt do.

Not many mirrors in Casa de Earl.....

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I was going to call out the cookers again but I deliberately didn't. The emotional ranting is definitely a cooker behavior.

Facts and calm logical discussions are the only thing worth participating in.

.......and apparently disregarding or ignoring facts that disprove your opinion

 

[TillLindemann]

I was going to call out the cookers again but I deliberately didn't. The emotional ranting is definitely a cooker behavior.

Facts and calm logical discussions are the only thing worth participating in.

You're just randomly throwing around phrases like 'all lives matter' that have nothing to do with the comment you responded to, and then having a sook when I say you're off your chops. Actually read what you're responding to, then respond to it coherently.