Sheens replacing Madge

[Demps]

Tim was always great with the young guys coming through.
Benji, Robbie, Heino, Halatau in the early days…
Ben Roberts said Sheens was a great coach but he couldn’t get a crack because he was behind Benji but Sheens really works with the boys.
Then later, Guys like Lawrence, Moltz.
Yeah he made some selections that @TheDaBoss pretends he knows about despite being 7 years old at the time… but he’s always been a good man manager.
Tim Sheens on his own isn’t the way…
It’s the power circle.
Ben Gardiner - Tim Sheens - Robbie Farah - Brett Kimmorley- John Morris and Madge can be moved onto coaching KOE, hard man tactics to get them ready for grade

How do you know what he was like with Dene?

He spoke highly of him on the podcast with Kempy...

Do you believe otherwise G?

 

[jirskyr]

I think his structures do not work in the modern game and he is unable to adapt.

I've read this type of comment a few times. And this is not a criticism of your post - what are his structures, what exactly are you talking about? Have there not been changes made, different approaches?

Because the issue I have is Madge's results are not any better or worse than anyone in a decade. He's getting the same non-results as everyone else, except it's more dire this time around because fans are only ever more tired of the failures.

Ivan Cleary had our team, didn't get them to the finals across the best part of 2 seasons. He moves to Penrith and after one dodgy season they are Top 2. So why is it Cleary could get Panthers to the top but not Tigers. Is it the coach? I don't know if people realise that Cleary coached Tigers 43 times, Madge 59 times - not so far apart in tenure. But people didn't want to sack Cleary?

I'm referring to his attacking strategy essentially being 5 hit ups then a bomb. There is no real shape in attack. We look disorganised, slow and constipated.

My main concern with Madge is the deterioration we've seen in defence since he arrived. This is particularly concerning as he's a defensive minded coach.

In defence:

2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

My question is why has there been no improvement in any facet of our game? We're getting worse.

As for Cleary, he was here for 1 full season, finished 9th, had a significantly poorer roster.

No no you can't give Cleary a pass like that, it's selective data. He was here 43 matches. At the start of 2020 he basically had the same # matches as Madge. His side included Tedesco and Woods - both of whom were current Origin players and Woods was being selected for Australia.

And if Cleary's roster was "significantly poorer" in your words, then there is the first improvement under Madge - the roster. If it's a better roster, in your opinion, then arguably you will expect them to eventually perform better. If they do not perform better, then by definition you really can't say it's a better roster?

Furthermore, if Cleary had a poorer roster, he handed that roster over to Madge. So if you can try and wipe Cleary's results based on the type of roster he had, then surely some of that also impacts Madge's record, because he inherited Cleary's big-decision roster. Madge wasn't here when Tedesco and Woods left, wasn't here when Reynolds and Mbye and Packer were signed (2 of whom he is STILL burdened with, the other he is clear by half a season).

No argument; defence is worse over time. However you can't blanket say there's no improvement in any facet, because there are obvious ones, for example average points per game:
2021 = 20.5
2020 = 22
2019 = 19.8
2018 (Cleary) = 15.1
2017 = 17.2
2016 = 20.8 ("Taylorball")
2015 = 20.1

Very significant improvement in points scored since Madge joined the club, and even the much-maligned "Taylorball" had better output than the Ivan Cleary tenure. And the obvious corollaries to this - line breaks similarly higher, try assists higher etc.

Missed tackles per game:
2021 = 29.6
2020 = 29.1
2019 = 25.9 (3rd best in league)
2018 = 38.3 (Cleary - worst in league)
2017 = 35.9
2016 = 30.3 (Taylor)
2015 = 27.8
So the team misses less tackles again by a very substantial margin compared to Cleary. It can be fairly argued that missed tackles are less important than points conceded, but it is a statistic that has improved since Madge joined (though it is not improving year-on-year). Your words: "no improvement in any facet".

And then back to your points conceded stat, again some selectivity
2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

and before that?
2018 19.1 (Cleary)
2017 23.8
2016 25.3 (Taylor)
So it's definitely gotten worse but that's not to say it is unprecedented before Madge. Somewhat tellingly also, average points conceded per game in the league is also up - 19.8 in 2019, 20.9 in 2020 and 23.0 in 2021. So all teams are worse on average since Madge became coach, by some margin in 2021.

So you see my main concern is this - I believe there is a general "idea" that Madge is doing worse, based on recency bias. If you choose one or two specific stats at a superficial level, you can show a decline. But those stats ignore other areas where Tigers are improved. Those stats also need to be viewed in context of the league, particularly in 2020-21 with some significant rule changes and COVID - it's not the same NRL conditions as there used to be.

And if you boil it to a fundamental level - total wins or year-end table position, Madge is again about average for the decade. Every coach since Potter has managed to get Tigers to 9th. Madge's main issue is that he got the 9th first year up, but it didn't stop Tigers hooking JT when he got 9th in his last season.

Tigers have not had success prior to Madge, and he is basically getting the same results as his predecessor. So is it the coach, and do we improve as a club by getting rid of him right now? And if yes, who do we employ? It's slim pickings IMO - down to two Sharks rejects - either a drug cheat or a bloke the Sharks chose not to renew in favour of a rookie.

 

[avocadoontoast]

I think his structures do not work in the modern game and he is unable to adapt.

I've read this type of comment a few times. And this is not a criticism of your post - what are his structures, what exactly are you talking about? Have there not been changes made, different approaches?

Because the issue I have is Madge's results are not any better or worse than anyone in a decade. He's getting the same non-results as everyone else, except it's more dire this time around because fans are only ever more tired of the failures.

Ivan Cleary had our team, didn't get them to the finals across the best part of 2 seasons. He moves to Penrith and after one dodgy season they are Top 2. So why is it Cleary could get Panthers to the top but not Tigers. Is it the coach? I don't know if people realise that Cleary coached Tigers 43 times, Madge 59 times - not so far apart in tenure. But people didn't want to sack Cleary?

I'm referring to his attacking strategy essentially being 5 hit ups then a bomb. There is no real shape in attack. We look disorganised, slow and constipated.

My main concern with Madge is the deterioration we've seen in defence since he arrived. This is particularly concerning as he's a defensive minded coach.

In defence:

2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

My question is why has there been no improvement in any facet of our game? We're getting worse.

As for Cleary, he was here for 1 full season, finished 9th, had a significantly poorer roster.

No no you can't give Cleary a pass like that, it's selective data. He was here 43 matches. At the start of 2020 he basically had the same # matches as Madge. His side included Tedesco and Woods - both of whom were current Origin players and Woods was being selected for Australia.

And if Cleary's roster was "significantly poorer" in your words, then there is the first improvement under Madge - the roster. If it's a better roster, in your opinion, then arguably you will expect them to eventually perform better. If they do not perform better, then by definition you really can't say it's a better roster?

Furthermore, if Cleary had a poorer roster, he handed that roster over to Madge. So if you can try and wipe Cleary's results based on the type of roster he had, then surely some of that also impacts Madge's record, because he inherited Cleary's big-decision roster. Madge wasn't here when Tedesco and Woods left, wasn't here when Reynolds and Mbye and Packer were signed (2 of whom he is STILL burdened with, the other he is clear by half a season).

No argument; defence is worse over time. However you can't blanket say there's no improvement in any facet, because there are obvious ones, for example average points per game:
2021 = 20.5
2020 = 22
2019 = 19.8
2018 (Cleary) = 15.1
2017 = 17.2
2016 = 20.8 ("Taylorball")
2015 = 20.1

Very significant improvement in points scored since Madge joined the club, and even the much-maligned "Taylorball" had better output than the Ivan Cleary tenure. And the obvious corollaries to this - line breaks similarly higher, try assists higher etc.

Missed tackles per game:
2021 = 29.6
2020 = 29.1
2019 = 25.9 (3rd best in league)
2018 = 38.3 (Cleary - worst in league)
2017 = 35.9
2016 = 30.3 (Taylor)
2015 = 27.8
So the team misses less tackles again by a very substantial margin compared to Cleary. It can be fairly argued that missed tackles are less important than points conceded, but it is a statistic that has improved since Madge joined (though it is not improving year-on-year).

And then back to your points conceded stat, again some selectivity
2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

and before that?
2018 19.1 (Cleary)
2017 23.8
2016 25.3 (Taylor)
So it's definitely gotten worse but that's not to say it is unprecedented before Madge. Somewhat tellingly also, average points conceded per game in the league is also up - 19.8 in 2019, 20.9 in 2020 and 23.0 in 2021. So all teams are worse on average since Madge became coach, by some margin in 2021.

So you see my main concern is this - I believe there is a general "idea" that Madge is doing worse, based on recency bias. If you choose one or two specific stats at a superficial level, you can show a decline. But those stats ignore other areas where Tigers are improved. Those stats also need to be viewed in context of the league, particularly in 2020-21 with some significant rule changes and COVID - it's not the same NRL conditions as there used to be.

And if you boil it to a fundamental level - total wins or year-end table position, Madge is again about average for the decade. Every coach since Potter has managed to get Tigers to 9th. Madge's main issue is that he got the 9th first year up, but it didn't stop Tigers hooking JT when he got 9th in his last season.

Tigers have not had success prior to Madge, and he is basically getting the same results as his predecessor. So is it the coach, and do we improve as a club by getting rid of him right now? And if yes, who do we employ? It's slim pickings IMO - down to two Sharks rejects - either a drug cheat or a bloke the Sharks chose not to renew in favour of a rookie.

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.

Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don't focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let's focus on now. Why?

Also, yeah we've been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven't said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn't even look to be trying. Why would that be?

 

[jirskyr]

The real issue with Maguire that no one seems to mention is his lack of charisma and personality.

Ask yourself the question who is this guy, what does he do for fun. Is he married, what do we know about him other than he is robotic and militant in his approach to coaching.

The now generation will never respond to that. They need someone they can respect and relate to.

I doubt many of our players either respect or relate to this guy.

There in lies the problem.

Baloney. Just because he's private doesn't mean he isn't respectable or has no personality.

Wayne Bennett is drier than the Sahara and publicly cantankerous, but doesn't seem to impact his ability to be liked by his players. Brad Fittler seems quite popular, not a really good club coach though. Some other coaches VERY well liked, not good coaches either.


Lol Wayne Bennet is one of the most loved coaches in the history of the game. Thats based on reports of pretty much every player who played for him.

Maybe you need to take a step back from your comment and compare a one trick pony drill sergeant and and brilliant man manager in Wayne Bennett.

No you totally misunderstand me and you prove my point.

I did not equate charisma with respect, you did that. I didn't say Wayne Bennett was unpopular. I said he is publicly cantankerous and my point was exactly as you proved - how he "appears" to be in public probably has next to no bearing on what he's really like as a coach and mentor.

You said Maguire has lack of charisma and personality. I've never met the bloke and I think it's a joke to suggest you know what he's like as a person.

 

[TheDaBoss]

I think his structures do not work in the modern game and he is unable to adapt.

I've read this type of comment a few times. And this is not a criticism of your post - what are his structures, what exactly are you talking about? Have there not been changes made, different approaches?

Because the issue I have is Madge's results are not any better or worse than anyone in a decade. He's getting the same non-results as everyone else, except it's more dire this time around because fans are only ever more tired of the failures.

Ivan Cleary had our team, didn't get them to the finals across the best part of 2 seasons. He moves to Penrith and after one dodgy season they are Top 2. So why is it Cleary could get Panthers to the top but not Tigers. Is it the coach? I don't know if people realise that Cleary coached Tigers 43 times, Madge 59 times - not so far apart in tenure. But people didn't want to sack Cleary?

I'm referring to his attacking strategy essentially being 5 hit ups then a bomb. There is no real shape in attack. We look disorganised, slow and constipated.

My main concern with Madge is the deterioration we've seen in defence since he arrived. This is particularly concerning as he's a defensive minded coach.

In defence:

2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

My question is why has there been no improvement in any facet of our game? We're getting worse.

As for Cleary, he was here for 1 full season, finished 9th, had a significantly poorer roster.

No no you can't give Cleary a pass like that, it's selective data. He was here 43 matches. At the start of 2020 he basically had the same # matches as Madge. His side included Tedesco and Woods - both of whom were current Origin players and Woods was being selected for Australia.

And if Cleary's roster was "significantly poorer" in your words, then there is the first improvement under Madge - the roster. If it's a better roster, in your opinion, then arguably you will expect them to eventually perform better. If they do not perform better, then by definition you really can't say it's a better roster?

Furthermore, if Cleary had a poorer roster, he handed that roster over to Madge. So if you can try and wipe Cleary's results based on the type of roster he had, then surely some of that also impacts Madge's record, because he inherited Cleary's big-decision roster. Madge wasn't here when Tedesco and Woods left, wasn't here when Reynolds and Mbye and Packer were signed (2 of whom he is STILL burdened with, the other he is clear by half a season).

No argument; defence is worse over time. However you can't blanket say there's no improvement in any facet, because there are obvious ones, for example average points per game:
2021 = 20.5
2020 = 22
2019 = 19.8
2018 (Cleary) = 15.1
2017 = 17.2
2016 = 20.8 ("Taylorball")
2015 = 20.1

Very significant improvement in points scored since Madge joined the club, and even the much-maligned "Taylorball" had better output than the Ivan Cleary tenure. And the obvious corollaries to this - line breaks similarly higher, try assists higher etc.

Missed tackles per game:
2021 = 29.6
2020 = 29.1
2019 = 25.9 (3rd best in league)
2018 = 38.3 (Cleary - worst in league)
2017 = 35.9
2016 = 30.3 (Taylor)
2015 = 27.8
So the team misses less tackles again by a very substantial margin compared to Cleary. It can be fairly argued that missed tackles are less important than points conceded, but it is a statistic that has improved since Madge joined (though it is not improving year-on-year).

And then back to your points conceded stat, again some selectivity
2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

and before that?
2018 19.1 (Cleary)
2017 23.8
2016 25.3 (Taylor)
So it's definitely gotten worse but that's not to say it is unprecedented before Madge. Somewhat tellingly also, average points conceded per game in the league is also up - 19.8 in 2019, 20.9 in 2020 and 23.0 in 2021. So all teams are worse on average since Madge became coach, by some margin in 2021.

So you see my main concern is this - I believe there is a general "idea" that Madge is doing worse, based on recency bias. If you choose one or two specific stats at a superficial level, you can show a decline. But those stats ignore other areas where Tigers are improved. Those stats also need to be viewed in context of the league, particularly in 2020-21 with some significant rule changes and COVID - it's not the same NRL conditions as there used to be.

And if you boil it to a fundamental level - total wins or year-end table position, Madge is again about average for the decade. Every coach since Potter has managed to get Tigers to 9th. Madge's main issue is that he got the 9th first year up, but it didn't stop Tigers hooking JT when he got 9th in his last season.

Tigers have not had success prior to Madge, and he is basically getting the same results as his predecessor. So is it the coach, and do we improve as a club by getting rid of him right now? And if yes, who do we employ? It's slim pickings IMO - down to two Sharks rejects - either a drug cheat or a bloke the Sharks chose not to renew in favour of a rookie.

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.

Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don't focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let's focus on now. Why?

Also, yeah we've been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven't said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn't even look to be trying. Why would that be?

I agree with this..as much as i hate cleary his ability as a coach was very good..

Idk how the hell he got the mob we brought out in rd 1 to beat storm twice and nearly roosters twice

 

[sleeve]

I think his structures do not work in the modern game and he is unable to adapt.

I've read this type of comment a few times. And this is not a criticism of your post - what are his structures, what exactly are you talking about? Have there not been changes made, different approaches?

Because the issue I have is Madge's results are not any better or worse than anyone in a decade. He's getting the same non-results as everyone else, except it's more dire this time around because fans are only ever more tired of the failures.

Ivan Cleary had our team, didn't get them to the finals across the best part of 2 seasons. He moves to Penrith and after one dodgy season they are Top 2. So why is it Cleary could get Panthers to the top but not Tigers. Is it the coach? I don't know if people realise that Cleary coached Tigers 43 times, Madge 59 times - not so far apart in tenure. But people didn't want to sack Cleary?

I'm referring to his attacking strategy essentially being 5 hit ups then a bomb. There is no real shape in attack. We look disorganised, slow and constipated.

My main concern with Madge is the deterioration we've seen in defence since he arrived. This is particularly concerning as he's a defensive minded coach.

In defence:

2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

My question is why has there been no improvement in any facet of our game? We're getting worse.

As for Cleary, he was here for 1 full season, finished 9th, had a significantly poorer roster.

No no you can't give Cleary a pass like that, it's selective data. He was here 43 matches. At the start of 2020 he basically had the same # matches as Madge. His side included Tedesco and Woods - both of whom were current Origin players and Woods was being selected for Australia.

And if Cleary's roster was "significantly poorer" in your words, then there is the first improvement under Madge - the roster. If it's a better roster, in your opinion, then arguably you will expect them to eventually perform better. If they do not perform better, then by definition you really can't say it's a better roster?

Furthermore, if Cleary had a poorer roster, he handed that roster over to Madge. So if you can try and wipe Cleary's results based on the type of roster he had, then surely some of that also impacts Madge's record, because he inherited Cleary's big-decision roster. Madge wasn't here when Tedesco and Woods left, wasn't here when Reynolds and Mbye and Packer were signed (2 of whom he is STILL burdened with, the other he is clear by half a season).

No argument; defence is worse over time. However you can't blanket say there's no improvement in any facet, because there are obvious ones, for example average points per game:
2021 = 20.5
2020 = 22
2019 = 19.8
2018 (Cleary) = 15.1
2017 = 17.2
2016 = 20.8 ("Taylorball")
2015 = 20.1

Very significant improvement in points scored since Madge joined the club, and even the much-maligned "Taylorball" had better output than the Ivan Cleary tenure. And the obvious corollaries to this - line breaks similarly higher, try assists higher etc.

Missed tackles per game:
2021 = 29.6
2020 = 29.1
2019 = 25.9 (3rd best in league)
2018 = 38.3 (Cleary - worst in league)
2017 = 35.9
2016 = 30.3 (Taylor)
2015 = 27.8
So the team misses less tackles again by a very substantial margin compared to Cleary. It can be fairly argued that missed tackles are less important than points conceded, but it is a statistic that has improved since Madge joined (though it is not improving year-on-year).

And then back to your points conceded stat, again some selectivity
2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

and before that?
2018 19.1 (Cleary)
2017 23.8
2016 25.3 (Taylor)
So it's definitely gotten worse but that's not to say it is unprecedented before Madge. Somewhat tellingly also, average points conceded per game in the league is also up - 19.8 in 2019, 20.9 in 2020 and 23.0 in 2021. So all teams are worse on average since Madge became coach, by some margin in 2021.

So you see my main concern is this - I believe there is a general "idea" that Madge is doing worse, based on recency bias. If you choose one or two specific stats at a superficial level, you can show a decline. But those stats ignore other areas where Tigers are improved. Those stats also need to be viewed in context of the league, particularly in 2020-21 with some significant rule changes and COVID - it's not the same NRL conditions as there used to be.

And if you boil it to a fundamental level - total wins or year-end table position, Madge is again about average for the decade. Every coach since Potter has managed to get Tigers to 9th. Madge's main issue is that he got the 9th first year up, but it didn't stop Tigers hooking JT when he got 9th in his last season.

Tigers have not had success prior to Madge, and he is basically getting the same results as his predecessor. So is it the coach, and do we improve as a club by getting rid of him right now? And if yes, who do we employ? It's slim pickings IMO - down to two Sharks rejects - either a drug cheat or a bloke the Sharks chose not to renew in favour of a rookie.

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.

Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don't focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let's focus on now. Why?

Also, yeah we've been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven't said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn't even look to be trying. Why would that be?

Luc is a big body, and uses a lot of energy, i think he should be used in short stints.

 

[jirskyr]

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.
Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don’t focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let’s focus on now. Why?
Also, yeah we’ve been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven’t said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn’t even look to be trying. Why would that be?

Well you are left with an overall opinion then. You can't factually say Tigers have not improved in any facet. You can say only what you just said now - in your opinion the roster is better than it used to be and Madge isn't getting the results. Can't argue with that as a broad opinion. You can say specific metrics are worse.

And I would put it to you - if the team is doing worse, regardless of who the coach is, can it truly be argued as being an improved roster? I get your point - you think the players are fundamentally of better quality and therefore should be performing better, and you think it's the coach's fault rather than the roster. But if you boil it down to only wins and finals appearances (which is fundamentally how we are measured), the "better roster" is currently doing worse.

So yes you raise reasonable current-football questions - why are they performing badly right now? Sure, let's forget about not just before Madge, but everything before 2020. It's a fairly modified roster now and we can't do anything about < 2021.

Can I remember us "just throwing in the towel every week"? Yes. I thought we were not focusing on previous seasons, but ok:
* Everyone remember Mitchell Moses opening the barnyard doors for Souths in his final match? You talk about "tanking" - that Moses performance is the only Tigers performance in history that I will ever say I think the player intentionally tanked.
* What about getting smashed by Parra 44-6 in 2008, when Danny G was named at prop and Ben Te'o refused to take hitups?
* What about 2001 when we lost 56-6, 66-12 and 64-0 in the space of 9 weeks?
* What about that match where Tim Moltzen was letting bombs bounce on the tryline and conceding tries? I can't even remember when it was.

Why do we look disinterested? Because confidence is low and I worry they are a mentally-weak team. We looked very interested versus Panthers, very interested against Saints and Knights. Pretty interested in the loss against Souths. I think that's part of the coach's frustration, because I would guess that his weekly approach doesn't change significantly, and yet the on-field performances vary wildly. A few weeks ago you may have been forgiven for thinking Tigers were turning a corner, then we get completely belted by Melbourne. Though in context there were several floggings last week.

What else has gone wrong? I think the team is too inexperienced overall. I think we lack experienced hard players, and that's a long-term roster issue because we need to import them from other clubs (we haven't any of our own), and it's not so easy to buy those types of players. Our halves are not consistent and our hookers haven't asserted themselves. The backs are very poor defensively and we are being exposed by good teams out wide.

 

[jirskyr]

I think his structures do not work in the modern game and he is unable to adapt.

I've read this type of comment a few times. And this is not a criticism of your post - what are his structures, what exactly are you talking about? Have there not been changes made, different approaches?

Because the issue I have is Madge's results are not any better or worse than anyone in a decade. He's getting the same non-results as everyone else, except it's more dire this time around because fans are only ever more tired of the failures.

Ivan Cleary had our team, didn't get them to the finals across the best part of 2 seasons. He moves to Penrith and after one dodgy season they are Top 2. So why is it Cleary could get Panthers to the top but not Tigers. Is it the coach? I don't know if people realise that Cleary coached Tigers 43 times, Madge 59 times - not so far apart in tenure. But people didn't want to sack Cleary?

I'm referring to his attacking strategy essentially being 5 hit ups then a bomb. There is no real shape in attack. We look disorganised, slow and constipated.

My main concern with Madge is the deterioration we've seen in defence since he arrived. This is particularly concerning as he's a defensive minded coach.

In defence:

2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

My question is why has there been no improvement in any facet of our game? We're getting worse.

As for Cleary, he was here for 1 full season, finished 9th, had a significantly poorer roster.

No no you can't give Cleary a pass like that, it's selective data. He was here 43 matches. At the start of 2020 he basically had the same # matches as Madge. His side included Tedesco and Woods - both of whom were current Origin players and Woods was being selected for Australia.

And if Cleary's roster was "significantly poorer" in your words, then there is the first improvement under Madge - the roster. If it's a better roster, in your opinion, then arguably you will expect them to eventually perform better. If they do not perform better, then by definition you really can't say it's a better roster?

Furthermore, if Cleary had a poorer roster, he handed that roster over to Madge. So if you can try and wipe Cleary's results based on the type of roster he had, then surely some of that also impacts Madge's record, because he inherited Cleary's big-decision roster. Madge wasn't here when Tedesco and Woods left, wasn't here when Reynolds and Mbye and Packer were signed (2 of whom he is STILL burdened with, the other he is clear by half a season).

No argument; defence is worse over time. However you can't blanket say there's no improvement in any facet, because there are obvious ones, for example average points per game:
2021 = 20.5
2020 = 22
2019 = 19.8
2018 (Cleary) = 15.1
2017 = 17.2
2016 = 20.8 ("Taylorball")
2015 = 20.1

Very significant improvement in points scored since Madge joined the club, and even the much-maligned "Taylorball" had better output than the Ivan Cleary tenure. And the obvious corollaries to this - line breaks similarly higher, try assists higher etc.

Missed tackles per game:
2021 = 29.6
2020 = 29.1
2019 = 25.9 (3rd best in league)
2018 = 38.3 (Cleary - worst in league)
2017 = 35.9
2016 = 30.3 (Taylor)
2015 = 27.8
So the team misses less tackles again by a very substantial margin compared to Cleary. It can be fairly argued that missed tackles are less important than points conceded, but it is a statistic that has improved since Madge joined (though it is not improving year-on-year).

And then back to your points conceded stat, again some selectivity
2019 20ppg
2020 25ppg
2021 29ppg (after 15 rounds)

and before that?
2018 19.1 (Cleary)
2017 23.8
2016 25.3 (Taylor)
So it's definitely gotten worse but that's not to say it is unprecedented before Madge. Somewhat tellingly also, average points conceded per game in the league is also up - 19.8 in 2019, 20.9 in 2020 and 23.0 in 2021. So all teams are worse on average since Madge became coach, by some margin in 2021.

So you see my main concern is this - I believe there is a general "idea" that Madge is doing worse, based on recency bias. If you choose one or two specific stats at a superficial level, you can show a decline. But those stats ignore other areas where Tigers are improved. Those stats also need to be viewed in context of the league, particularly in 2020-21 with some significant rule changes and COVID - it's not the same NRL conditions as there used to be.

And if you boil it to a fundamental level - total wins or year-end table position, Madge is again about average for the decade. Every coach since Potter has managed to get Tigers to 9th. Madge's main issue is that he got the 9th first year up, but it didn't stop Tigers hooking JT when he got 9th in his last season.

Tigers have not had success prior to Madge, and he is basically getting the same results as his predecessor. So is it the coach, and do we improve as a club by getting rid of him right now? And if yes, who do we employ? It's slim pickings IMO - down to two Sharks rejects - either a drug cheat or a bloke the Sharks chose not to renew in favour of a rookie.

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.

Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don't focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let's focus on now. Why?

Also, yeah we've been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven't said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn't even look to be trying. Why would that be?

I agree with this..as much as i hate cleary his ability as a coach was very good..

Idk how the hell he got the mob we brought out in rd 1 to beat storm twice and nearly roosters twice

Short memory mate. Here are the 10 rounds after that memorable 6-round run:
26 2018 Apr 21st Wests Tigers L 20 - 22 Newcastle 0 - 10 C. Butler, M. Noyen Scully Park L View
27 2018 Apr 29th Wests Tigers L 22 - 24 Parramatta 10 - 12 M. Cecchin, P. Henderson ANZ L View
28 2018 May 5th Wests Tigers L 4 - 26 Warriors 4 - 12 B. Cummins, G. Atkins Mt Smart L View
29 2018 May 10th Wests Tigers W 20 - 12 North Queensland 8 - 6 G. Sutton, M. Noyen Leichhardt W View
30 2018 May 17th Wests Tigers L 2 - 16 Penrith 2 - 12 B. Cummins, J. Stone Panthers Stadium L View
31 2018 May 27th Wests Tigers W 14 - 10 Canterbury 4 - 10 H. Perenara, G. Badger ANZ W View
32 2018 Jun 3rd Wests Tigers L 14 - 16 Sydney 2 - 8 G. Atkins, P. Henderson Allianz L View
33 2018 Jun 10th Wests Tigers L 16 - 24 Cronulla 10 - 2 A. Gee, Z. Przeklasa-Adamski Southern Cross L View
34 2018 Jun 17th Wests Tigers L 12 - 48 Canberra 12 - 10 G. Atkins, G. Badger Campbelltown L View
35 2018 Jul 1st Wests Tigers L 12 - 30 Gold Coast Titans 12 - 12 J. Stone, G. Reynolds Leichhardt L View

In fairness that was (by 1) the "winningest" season since 2011 and in an average year we would have made the Top 8 (50% win record), but it was a very weird outcome where 1st was 34 points and 8th was 32 points.

I think the results at Penrith are enough by itself to say Cleary has the capacity to be a good coach, under the right conditions. And I think the same thing applies to Madge, unfortunately both coaches hamstrung by Wests Tigers as an organisation.

 

[earl]

I think the team is too inexperienced overall. I think we lack experienced hard players, and that’s a long-term roster issue because we need to import them from other clubs (we haven’t any of our own), and it’s not so easy to buy those types of players. Our halves are not consistent and our hookers haven’t asserted themselves. The backs are very poor defensively and we are being exposed by good teams out wide.

We have a lot of flaws that take time to fix. If some of our existing players turn into consistent high performers and we purchase a couple of players who can do that as well than we can improve.

We are a bottom level team based on our current squad but we are also a young team that has a few poor performers taking up significant amounts of our salary cap. If we don't stuff our cap again via recruiting wisely we may move up the ladder over time.

I don't see how changing the coach changes the picture for us. If anything I think it's risky because if we get a coach in who stuffs the cap then we are back where we started.

I also get the argument Madge hasn't gotten this team to perform but I think that was more relevant prior to moving Mbye to 6. No one wanted that move and it worked.

 

[avocadoontoast]

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.
Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don’t focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let’s focus on now. Why?
Also, yeah we’ve been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven’t said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn’t even look to be trying. Why would that be?

Well you are left with an overall opinion then. You can't factually say Tigers have not improved in any facet. You can say only what you just said now - in your opinion the roster is better than it used to be and Madge isn't getting the results. Can't argue with that as a broad opinion. You can say specific metrics are worse.

And I would put it to you - if the team is doing worse, regardless of who the coach is, can it truly be argued as being an improved roster? I get your point - you think the players are fundamentally of better quality and therefore should be performing better, and you think it's the coach's fault rather than the roster. But if you boil it down to only wins and finals appearances (which is fundamentally how we are measured), the "better roster" is currently doing worse.

So yes you raise reasonable current-football questions - why are they performing badly right now? Sure, let's forget about not just before Madge, but everything before 2020. It's a fairly modified roster now and we can't do anything about < 2021.

Can I remember us "just throwing in the towel every week"? Yes. I thought we were not focusing on previous seasons, but ok:
* Everyone remember Mitchell Moses opening the barnyard doors for Souths in his final match? You talk about "tanking" - that Moses performance is the only Tigers performance in history that I will ever say I think the player intentionally tanked.
* What about getting smashed by Parra 44-6 in 2008, when Danny G was named at prop and Ben Te'o refused to take hitups?
* What about 2001 when we lost 56-6, 66-12 and 64-0 in the space of 9 weeks?
* What about that match where Tim Moltzen was letting bombs bounce on the tryline and conceding tries? I can't even remember when it was.

Why do we look disinterested? Because confidence is low and I worry they are a mentally-weak team. We looked very interested versus Panthers, very interested against Saints and Knights. Pretty interested in the loss against Souths. I think that's part of the coach's frustration, because I would guess that his weekly approach doesn't change significantly, and yet the on-field performances vary wildly. A few weeks ago you may have been forgiven for thinking Tigers were turning a corner, then we get completely belted by Melbourne. Though in context there were several floggings last week.

What else has gone wrong? I think the team is too inexperienced overall. I think we lack experienced hard players, and that's a long-term roster issue because we need to import them from other clubs (we haven't any of our own), and it's not so easy to buy those types of players. Our halves are not consistent and our hookers haven't asserted themselves. The backs are very poor defensively and we are being exposed by good teams out wide.

In my opinion the Wests Tigers roster overall recruitment has improved but our on field performances have gone backwards.

You have mentioned 6 games to say that us throwing in the towel isn't an isolated incident. But those 6 games are over a 20 year period. This year it's been the norm rather than the exception. As soon as any pressure is applied, we turn to water.

Let's be honest, we've looked fairly disinterested since the middle of the 2020 season. We had a shocking 2nd half of the season and that's carried over to this year. We are an incredibly weak team mentally but we are also a very poorly coached team. Whatever his style of coaching is, it's not working with this roster, and we can't turn over rosters year after year until he gets the team he finally wants. That is not realistic or practical. He needs to adapt to the strengths of the players he has. He hasn't adjusted anything in almost 3 years and it's showing.

We were good against Souths, and we were good against an origin depleted Panthers. But can you honestly say we beat Knights and Dragons because we were good, or were they really poor? I feel it's the latter. We'll see what happens as the season drags on, but I feel it's going to be a pretty painful end to the year unfortunately.

As for inexperience, we have 7 players in our lineup (Brooks, Tamou, Roberts, Ofahengaue, Nofoaluma, Mbye, Maumolo) who have all played over 100 games. Contrasting that, Penrith only have 4. JFH, Cleary, Koroisau and Yeo. Not one has played 200.

 

[jirskyr]

You can try and justify it anyway you like, but in my opinion Cleary was a very poor recruiter but a very good coach. I think Hartigan is a very good recruiter but Madge is unable to get them to perform.
Answer me this. Why, when the roster has improved, have we performed worse on the field? What has gone wrong? Why is he unable to get them playing well? Don’t focus on Taylor or Potter or Sheens, let’s focus on now. Why?
Also, yeah we’ve been miserable failures for ever, but can you remember us just throwing in the towel almost every week, looking completely disinterested? I haven’t said this before, but it looked to me like Luc was tanking on purpose. He didn’t even look to be trying. Why would that be?

Well you are left with an overall opinion then. You can't factually say Tigers have not improved in any facet. You can say only what you just said now - in your opinion the roster is better than it used to be and Madge isn't getting the results. Can't argue with that as a broad opinion. You can say specific metrics are worse.

And I would put it to you - if the team is doing worse, regardless of who the coach is, can it truly be argued as being an improved roster? I get your point - you think the players are fundamentally of better quality and therefore should be performing better, and you think it's the coach's fault rather than the roster. But if you boil it down to only wins and finals appearances (which is fundamentally how we are measured), the "better roster" is currently doing worse.

So yes you raise reasonable current-football questions - why are they performing badly right now? Sure, let's forget about not just before Madge, but everything before 2020. It's a fairly modified roster now and we can't do anything about < 2021.

Can I remember us "just throwing in the towel every week"? Yes. I thought we were not focusing on previous seasons, but ok:
* Everyone remember Mitchell Moses opening the barnyard doors for Souths in his final match? You talk about "tanking" - that Moses performance is the only Tigers performance in history that I will ever say I think the player intentionally tanked.
* What about getting smashed by Parra 44-6 in 2008, when Danny G was named at prop and Ben Te'o refused to take hitups?
* What about 2001 when we lost 56-6, 66-12 and 64-0 in the space of 9 weeks?
* What about that match where Tim Moltzen was letting bombs bounce on the tryline and conceding tries? I can't even remember when it was.

Why do we look disinterested? Because confidence is low and I worry they are a mentally-weak team. We looked very interested versus Panthers, very interested against Saints and Knights. Pretty interested in the loss against Souths. I think that's part of the coach's frustration, because I would guess that his weekly approach doesn't change significantly, and yet the on-field performances vary wildly. A few weeks ago you may have been forgiven for thinking Tigers were turning a corner, then we get completely belted by Melbourne. Though in context there were several floggings last week.

What else has gone wrong? I think the team is too inexperienced overall. I think we lack experienced hard players, and that's a long-term roster issue because we need to import them from other clubs (we haven't any of our own), and it's not so easy to buy those types of players. Our halves are not consistent and our hookers haven't asserted themselves. The backs are very poor defensively and we are being exposed by good teams out wide.

In my opinion the Wests Tigers roster overall recruitment has improved but our on field performances have gone backwards.

You have mentioned 6 games to say that us throwing in the towel isn't an isolated incident. But those 6 games are over a 20 year period. This year it's been the norm rather than the exception. As soon as any pressure is applied, we turn to water.

Let's be honest, we've looked fairly disinterested since the middle of the 2020 season. We had a shocking 2nd half of the season and that's carried over to this year. We are an incredibly weak team mentally but we are also a very poorly coached team. Whatever his style of coaching is, it's not working with this roster, and we can't turn over rosters year after year until he gets the team he finally wants. That is not realistic or practical. He needs to adapt to the strengths of the players he has. He hasn't adjusted anything in almost 3 years and it's showing.

We were good against Souths, and we were good against an origin depleted Panthers. But can you honestly say we beat Knights and Dragons because we were good, or were they really poor? I feel it's the latter. We'll see what happens as the season drags on, but I feel it's going to be a pretty painful end to the year unfortunately.

As for inexperience, we have 7 players in our lineup (Brooks, Tamou, Roberts, Ofahengaue, Nofoaluma, Mbye, Maumolo) who have all played over 100 games. Contrasting that, Penrith only have 4. JFH, Cleary, Koroisau and Yeo. Not one has played 200.

I agree with much of that.

A few things. Firstly, experience isn't just matches played, it's also experience of: success, high-performance, winning culture, representative football, finals, clutch football, consistency, leadership. I argue we need more than "player with large number of games played". I think we need experience in leadership, winning culture and toughness.

For example Brooksie hasn't played a finals match in his life, you can't say he has the experience to get Tigers over the line in September. Nofo hasn't played finals either. KM has played one game of finals. Mbye has played a few finals, his main problem is he has barely played more than a year or two in one position.

And it's not just # players with experience over 100, it's the total average experience of the side. If you have 6 guys with 100 games experience but 6 with 0 games experience, the average is 50 games experience. But that's not the same as having 12 blokes with 50 games experience.

Penrith also have the luxury that their experienced players are also young, i.e. in the peak of their physical careers, whereas the experience Tigers you named are often in the back-end of their careers. JFH, Cleary, Koroisau, Yeo are all current rep players, but Jimmy Tamou, Roberts, Nofo, Mbye certainly are not.

You say "As soon as any pressure is applied, we turn to water." And I totally agree. I don't think that's the same as "throwing in the towel" however. Throwing in the towel implies giving up, and you said earlier even to the point of "tanking". I think they are just mentally weak and dumb at times. I don't think they give up as much as switching off / losing concentration, or just playing dumb. Like to me, if the opposition run the same play at you 5 times and make line breaks every time, that's not necessarily a lack of effort, that's just as likely dumb football that you haven't figured out yet how to make any adjustments (not to mention the midweek video work that's certainly been done).

Lastly I don't necessarily think we are a poorly coached side. But I don't deny that Madge is not getting through or getting the performances out of the team. I think they are different considerations and it's a question of what (if any) coaching strategy would get results right now in mid 2021. For example if Craig Bellamy walked in the door right now, would Tigers immediately improve? Would we even improve enough in 1-2 seasons? You'd say yes of course, but Craig Bellamy has not posted points anywhere outside of Melbourne, despite how good he's got them going down there. 2 W from 9 attempts as Origin coach. It's not fait accompli.

I'm quite OK to replace Madge or a guy like Brooks, if am allowed to know and judge who the replacement is going to be. Not just replace them for the sake of having them gone.

Madge has proven at more than one club that he can get results, and the argument against him is that those results are not contemporaneous. But again I go back to Ivan Cleary - almost undefeated in the past two years, but only made the finals once in the 7 coaching years before 2020. Brad Arthur only made the finals once in his first 5 years at Parramatta (including 1 spoon). Ricky Stuart only made the finals once in the first 5 years at Canberra, then made the Grand Final, and now very likely to miss the finals again.

 

[hammertime]

We can't replace Madge at the moment, purely for our credibility externally. He has the runs on the board.

The changes would need to be made at CEO level first, before we contemplate the coach. Even if the issue is the coach, he hasn't presided over the hole that we're in. He's desperately trying to dig us out.

I've always been a big backer of Pascoe, but he may need to fall on his sword soon if things don't improve.

 

[mike]

We can't replace Madge at the moment, purely for our credibility externally. He has the runs on the board.

The changes would need to be made at CEO level first, before we contemplate the coach. Even if the issue is the coach, he hasn't presided over the hole that we're in. He's desperately trying to dig us out.

I've always been a big backer of Pascoe, but he may need to fall on his sword soon if things don't improve.

What does Pascoe have todo with performance of the football department?

 

[Tiger5150]

We can't replace Madge at the moment, purely for our credibility externally. He has the runs on the board.

The changes would need to be made at CEO level first, before we contemplate the coach. Even if the issue is the coach, he hasn't presided over the hole that we're in. He's desperately trying to dig us out.

I've always been a big backer of Pascoe, but he may need to fall on his sword soon if things don't improve.

What does Pascoe have todo with performance of the football department?

Exactly.

Pascoe has created the CoE. Appointed Sheens, kimmorley and Hartigan.

He is putting the blocks in place for the football department.

 

[mike]

We can't replace Madge at the moment, purely for our credibility externally. He has the runs on the board.

The changes would need to be made at CEO level first, before we contemplate the coach. Even if the issue is the coach, he hasn't presided over the hole that we're in. He's desperately trying to dig us out.

I've always been a big backer of Pascoe, but he may need to fall on his sword soon if things don't improve.

What does Pascoe have todo with performance of the football department?

Exactly.

Pascoe has created the CoE. Appointed Sheens, kimmorley and Hartigan.

He is putting the blocks in place for the football department.

Haven’t seen an Org Chart but I would imagine Hartigan has a dotted line to Pascoe, for operational purposes, but gets most of the direction from and reports to the Board.

 

[851]

“Our training has been outstanding and the roster is the best we’ve had for some time. Our staff and personnel and support around the football club means we’re now far better equipped financially.”

This is what they should be sacking Maguire on, not backing him, weak kneed club IMHO, he has the best chance to succeed in years, but the performances are diabolical

 

[851]

One of the issues that we don’t often discuss is the limited experience of the playing roster when compared to other teams.
We have a young squad and with it comes a host of challenges.

 https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/QAHBwzixQSupYgCbCpb2yiYq-YQ=/1440x0/https%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2Fdfde0152-c2d9-4399-8f6e-16882b0cbb45


Great point. Reminds me of Frank Stantons baby Tigers at Balmain, which Warren Ryan reaped the benefits of.

Also looking at the graph, expect years of dominance from Penriff & Manly


Yes if the band stays together they should all be in tune in another 25-40 games.
I thought the correlation of this graph with the ladder was interesting?

Penrith and Manly are the only two thatbuck the trend. This Penrith crop is pretty special and I hate to say it but pimply Nathan might be a once in a generation player. Manly has Turbo

We were close to getting him too, but people said we don't need him, we have Brooks

 

[twentyforty]

“Our training has been outstanding and the roster is the best we’ve had for some time. Our staff and personnel and support around the football club means we’re now far better equipped financially.”

This is what they should be sacking Maguire on, not backing him, weak kneed club IMHO, he has the best chance to succeed in years, but the performances are diabolical

Why did the club hire Madge?
Did they hire him so that they could sack him and reinforce what many people suspect? That they have no idea? You may be right? There aren’t many clubs which can boast they don’t have a coach or player who has been sacked by WT. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s highlighted on their resume as a positive. How many coaches have been moved on only to show up coaching a GF team, while WT still struggle to make the 8?

 

[851]

“Our training has been outstanding and the roster is the best we’ve had for some time. Our staff and personnel and support around the football club means we’re now far better equipped financially.”

This is what they should be sacking Maguire on, not backing him, weak kneed club IMHO, he has the best chance to succeed in years, but the performances are diabolical

Why did the club hire Madge?
Did they hire him so that they could sack him and reinforce what many people suspect? That they have no idea? You may be right? There aren’t many clubs which can boast they don’t have a coach or player who has been sacked by WT. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s highlighted on their resume as a positive. How many coaches have been moved on only to show up coaching a GF team, while WT still struggle to make the 8?

Firstly I have no idea why they hired him in the first place, he had serious baggage from his time at Souths, and it is now resurfacing here.
The club by it's own admission have the best roster and off field position they have had in many years, but the onfield results don't go even close to mirroring this, they are bad and getting worse.
This is the coach, he has signed or re-signed all but 2 players on the roster, they are his doing, there are no more excuses left for him

 

[hammertime]

We can't replace Madge at the moment, purely for our credibility externally. He has the runs on the board.

The changes would need to be made at CEO level first, before we contemplate the coach. Even if the issue is the coach, he hasn't presided over the hole that we're in. He's desperately trying to dig us out.

I've always been a big backer of Pascoe, but he may need to fall on his sword soon if things don't improve.

What does Pascoe have todo with performance of the football department?

He had a direct hand in the farah fiasco, backing JT at the time and also losing the 'Big 3'. To say he is not accountable for anything to do with football is rubbish.

A CEO cannot appoint a manager underneath him (i.e. Head Coach) and absolve responsibility. It's not 2 separate organizations.

Is the head coach also responsible to ensure that the junior pathway structure is set? Or does the CEO make sure he has the right people in for that. Major dropped ball there.

Lets also not forget the direct impact he had on our football department with that cap fine.