Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

[TigerWest]

As suggested before, all players should be on a points system. The more valuable a player is the higher the points.

I'll say this every time, and it's not a slight against you, but can anyone please show me a professional league of any sport globally that has a centrally-assigned points cap system in place? Can't work, won't work.

100% this. The whole idea is a complete non-starter. All it does is distort player cost, not "fix" it. Depending on how the points are assigned, it would likely be a disaster for solid first graders who happen to have played a game or two of rep football and are now given rep-level points, while wildly overvaluing unproven talent. Instead of allowing clubs to keep the players they have developed, it would force them into Joseph Suaalii style bidding wars over "next big thing" talent that has a very low points score.

Every time I get into a conversation with a points system advicate they have to tweak the system in response to every problem.

What about players who get international caps for second tier nations - would they carry the same points weighting as Australia internationals? *Oh no, it would be half.* So teams would be incentivised to sign Tongan and Kiwi players rather than Australians - how would that go down? *Oh no, Tonga and NZ are good now, so they would have full weighting.* So some guy who plays a couple of games off the bench for Tonga has the same weighting as an Australian international? *It could be based on number of games played.* But some international teams play more than others.

And so it goes on, until they end up saying actually there would just be a panel of judges who decide how many points to assign everyone. Which basically turns roster construction into "are you a better judge of talent than Gorden Tallis, Neil Henry and Braith Anasta". There's no way any system that relies on external judgement of talent is going to work.

I understand some of the concerns. As many of our fellow Tigers fans have mentioned it wouldnt be easy & I dont profess to have all the answers. But what about a "price" points system that the market decides. Let me illustrate.
Lets take Suaali for example. Souths are willing to pay 300k for him so he is worth 30 points. But the Rorters come along & say we will pay him 500k , so his point score goes up to 50 points. However Souths get him for a 50% points discount (ie 25 points because he was developed by them). So Souths now say we will offer you 600k knowing that it will only cost them 30 points . As all NRL sides have the same points, sides like the Rorters would be hesitant using a large amount of points on an unproven players.
This same principle applies to all players. The "price" points system is very similar to how the salary cap works now but actually acts as a transparent public salary cap, rather than the "one payment on the books plus paperbags" with the existing salary cap.
For example , The Warriors offer Manu 950k but he signed with the Rorters for supposedly 750k ( with paperbags) , it will still cost the Rorters 95 points because that was the highest offer.

All contracts & offers have to be lodged with NRL & once lodged are binding on the club if the player decides to accept them so that would stop clubs trying to intentionally inflate the points price of players by submitting bogus offers. If a club does withdraw the offer after it has been accepted they would have to subsidize the difference of what they offered & what the player actually signed for at another club. On top of this , they would lose the difference of the price points between the 2 offers off their salary cap points for the lentgh of the contract they offered.

Any thoughts?

At first glance, it's a better idea than others I've heard. I'm thinking aloud here but the first questions I'd want answered are:
- Is it fair to make one team pay, even in points, for another club's stupid contract offer? I guess this happens anyway - the whole buyer's remorse thing. But if the Roosters genuinely have built a team culture players want to be a part of, even at a discount, should they be penalised because no hopers like the Warriors can only throw money at the situation?
- How would the system account for length of contract? I guess average annual value, but players often prefer to take smaller deals with the certainty of longer duration. Again, if some dumb club has to offer stupid contract years to attract talent is it fair effectively to make smart ones match it or be penalised?
- What happens when clubs are negotiating with multiple players at the same time? You'd have to assume the Tigers would be at least interested in more or less any player on the market now, and could in theory make offers to several players knowing they aren't likely to get all of them (and if they absolutely had to could withdraw an offer). If the whole transfer system became a chain, where club A can't offer player Y a contract until player X has made a decision, it would get horribly snarled up.

As I say, just thinking aloud. It's an interesting idea.

There are problems with any system you initially introduce, but a points system automatically stops rorting imo.

It’s got to be open and transparent for everyone to see it, though you would probably need a doctorate in mathematics to understand it? But it would spread the talent which is what is wanted by most people?

I think it’s fair to say the current system is deeply flawed and needs to be changed or tightened up considerably.

There is just no fair way to do it, honestly the best system is a salary cap with strong developed and long serving player allowances.

That’s mostly what we have now, it’s not working because clubs are abusing it and cheating it. IMO, development allowance won’t stop non-developing clubs one bit, it will just be part of there costs?

You can’t heat a point valued system.

Points systems are rubbish as their is no fair way to value players. The current system does not have strong developed and long serving player allowances.

Well, we will disagree.

So what would you base points on?

The NRL would give all players a value, determined in advance, that would be readjusted each year, then all clubs would be allowed a total number of points to set there team up, which can be openly seen.

Salary caps wouldn’t be required, because it can’t be policed.

So you may have to release a player mid contract because you are now over the points allocation?

What would these points be based on? Who would decide the value?

I would imagine the NRL would have a value on that player for a year, (if he ends up more points during the year, because he got his first SOO call up, then it would need to be accounted for the following season, if he stays at the same club, e.g. you wouldn’t expect to have a player sacked, because someone got selected all of a sudden to SOO that season, I think) but if a player moves on (mid season) then you need to find a player available of similar value, but you can’t go over?

Look there are ways to get around everything, but it is obvious you can not trust clubs to play a gentleman’s game, so we need something that is transparent and easily accountable every year.

Some clubs (like us) are severely hampered in signings because the salary cap system is being rorted (TPA’s and cash payments) are very hard to police.


Do people really think the Roosters are using cash payments outside the cap? I know everyone likes to joke about Politis’ golf game but they would have be seriously incompetent to be so foolish. I’ve always assumed their ability to have such a stacked roster is a combination of :
1) making full use of TPA’s
2) players in the last 10 roster spots playing for unders because they are looking to come through a good system which allows the club to skew its cap to the top 20 who are all representative standard.

Rather than trying to assign points to players I think it would be pretty easy to fix the cap:
1) all contracts public
2) hard cap on TPAs (eg $2m)
3) better system of cap relief for juniors/veterans

Who knows, but cash is untraceable, I don’t believe players really sign up for less, especially if they are representative standard, just because they like the club or the coach, there careers are short enough and injuries could make it shorter?

 

[Telltails]

Don't believe for a minute that players play for less a better clubs.

 

[ConePuncher]

Have you never worked at a job you liked for less money?

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Don't believe for a minute that players play for less a better clubs.

We’re proof that they do

 

[JC99]

Reported in the Telecrap today that Oliver Gildart was spotted in Cronulla for a catch up and a feed of fish and chips with Luke Thompson may be WT'S are still a chance of snaring Thompson??????

Mate having a snack with a mate.
Gildart wouldn’t know hardly anyone here.
Doubt Gildart has any pulling player to make the Bulldogs allow Thompson to join us.

You never know

I reckon at this stage it could just be mates catching up but if we do manage to sign Hodgson and with Gildart already here it could become a factor for him there are no pommies in the Bulldogs team besides Thompson as far as I know but if we do get Hodgson we all know it pushes more Liddle out rather than Simpkin as he’s the clubs next long term Hooker he’s just not there yet but he’s getting there so we’ll see what happens but I would offer Liddle for Thompson easily as the Dogs do need a Hooker

The club would be ill advised to trade either of our hookers for a busted 32 year old with no knees

Either way the club sees Simpkin as its next long term Hooker even if they don’t get Hodgson and keep Liddle until his contract is up I doubt he’ll be kept unless he’s happy with just being depth either way Liddle will be gone eventually the question is just when

Liddle and Simpkin were on par in 2021. Anything can happen in 2 years.

No they weren't. Liddle was streets ahead of Simpkin.

I'm continually confused by how people think this. Is it because he made some good runs and grabbed some tries?

I want my dummy half providing good service to his team mates first and foremost and Liddle was terrible in that regard. Struggled defensively also

I agree that Simpkin and Liddle were about on par this season but if you choose to invest in one the obvious choice is Simpkin. Happy to keep both and see how they go, Hodgson would be good for them

 

[barnzee]

Reported in the Telecrap today that Oliver Gildart was spotted in Cronulla for a catch up and a feed of fish and chips with Luke Thompson may be WT'S are still a chance of snaring Thompson??????

Mate having a snack with a mate.
Gildart wouldn’t know hardly anyone here.
Doubt Gildart has any pulling player to make the Bulldogs allow Thompson to join us.

You never know

I reckon at this stage it could just be mates catching up but if we do manage to sign Hodgson and with Gildart already here it could become a factor for him there are no pommies in the Bulldogs team besides Thompson as far as I know but if we do get Hodgson we all know it pushes more Liddle out rather than Simpkin as he’s the clubs next long term Hooker he’s just not there yet but he’s getting there so we’ll see what happens but I would offer Liddle for Thompson easily as the Dogs do need a Hooker

The club would be ill advised to trade either of our hookers for a busted 32 year old with no knees

Either way the club sees Simpkin as its next long term Hooker even if they don’t get Hodgson and keep Liddle until his contract is up I doubt he’ll be kept unless he’s happy with just being depth either way Liddle will be gone eventually the question is just when

Liddle and Simpkin were on par in 2021. Anything can happen in 2 years.

No they weren't. Liddle was streets ahead of Simpkin.

I wouldnt say streets ahead mate

 

[bradexl]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

 

[sparci]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

 

[happy_tiger]

Cust off to Wigan

Would you have taken Cust over Hastings

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/news/tough-sea-eagles-half-granted-release-to-join-new-club/ar-AAQDNNS?ocid=ientp

 

[Glenji95]

Cust off to Wigan

Would you have taken Cust over Hastings

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/news/tough-sea-eagles-half-granted-release-to-join-new-club/ar-AAQDNNS?ocid=ientp

No disrespect to Cust but if we did sign him he would have just been depth he and Brooks would have been a disaster or whoever he partnered with I’m glad we got Hastings instead

 

[Glenji95]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

Didn’t Luciano Leilua got into a push and shove with Liddle last offseason because of his service from dummy half?

 

[JC99]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

There's no issue in his game besides being a dummy half is what you're saying ? his passing was terrible this year. Hopefully he fixes it up

 

[JC99]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

Didn’t Luciano Leilua got into a push and shove with Liddle last offseason because of his service from dummy half?

Correct, seemingly it was justified

 

[happy_tiger]

This is what we have come down to ...arguing over Liddle and Simpkins

Nup ...if you listen to some the club is fine ...nothing to see here .....lol

 

[Glenji95]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

Didn’t Luciano Leilua got into a push and shove with Liddle last offseason because of his service from dummy half?

Correct, seemingly it was justified

And there were games that Liddle’s service from dummy half was horrible he can run but his passing is average while Simpkin at this stage can pass the ball better but not as effective at running yet but honestly if I had to pick one of them two I’m going with Simpkin

 

[Camel2281]

Rather than trying to assign points to players I think it would be pretty easy to fix the cap:

all contracts public
hard cap on TPAs (eg $2m)
better system of cap relief for juniors/veterans

With regards to the above suggestions. I massively agree with better system of rewarding clubs for developing and retaining players. However, whilst I agree about making contracts public like the US sports the Players Association have said publicly that they'll never allow it as they will claim it breaches privacy, just like capping TPD's will be disputed as restriction of trade

 

[Camel2281]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

Didn’t Luciano Leilua got into a push and shove with Liddle last offseason because of his service from dummy half?

Yep, and the fact Jacob couldn't take criticism

 

[tony soprano]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

They both were

 

[cochise]

Rather than trying to assign points to players I think it would be pretty easy to fix the cap:

all contracts public
hard cap on TPAs (eg $2m)
better system of cap relief for juniors/veterans

With regards to the above suggestions. I massively agree with better system of rewarding clubs for developing and retaining players. However, whilst I agree about making contracts public like the US sports the Players Association have said publicly that they'll never allow it as they will claim it breaches privacy, just like capping TPD's will be disputed as restriction of trade

I don't believe in restricting TPAs

 

[Camel2281]

Im continually confused how people believe that Simpkins' performance was better than Liddles this year. Liddle may not have been great but Simpkin was way out of his depth.

Its just, Liddle lacks in the main fundamental of a hooker, passing. Its atrocious. So the frustration over the season builds up, otherwise I don't see much of an issue in his game, but this one issue, is pretty damning.

Didn’t Luciano Leilua got into a push and shove with Liddle last offseason because of his service from dummy half?

Correct, seemingly it was justified

And there were games that Liddle’s service from dummy half was horrible he can run but his passing is average while Simpkin at this stage can pass the ball better but not as effective at running yet but honestly if I had to pick one of them two I’m going with Simpkin

Liddle has no kicking game either which is really important from 9 these days