@batboy said in [Signing Suggestions & Rumours](/post/1503357) said:
We’ve never had the cleanout we needed…
Just as a matter of interest, what do you mean by a "cleanout"? Because you know teams have to have a full roster, right? You obviously don't rate lots of the current roster, and it's hard to blame you, but we're not going to fix it by starting the season with half a dozen players on our books.
Understood, It's something we should have done when we lost most our key players in 2017.
What I mean is - Stop signing the players that they think are going to get us just over the line (From 9th to 8th) and start building them.
Stop signing gap stops like Mbye and Reynolds... We should have offered stupid money to Maloney even post Panthers
Sign some leadership, Some blokes who'll fight to the death and real toilers.
Stop overpaying to keep unproven junior talent (Like Suli) It's not hard to remember we paid 450k a year to Brooks & Moses in 2014 - Before they'd even played grade really....
Part of the reason we couldn't surround them with quality. Overpaying for Woods, Simona and the like...
For what - Our jnr pathways has seemed non existent since those days anyway.
We have more than enough skilled kids to pick from - We need some CHARACTER & LEADERSHIP
We've not had any since the last of the Pre Merger guys finished up... Blokes like Senter, Skando and Galea would drag these blokes into line.
I'd almost throw some money at a type like or Wade Graham, Best footy is well behind him... Good Footy Head, Would be good around Halves, Back Row and Centre.
Luke Lewis would have been perfect.... That type of footballer.
We are so far from winning the comp it's not funny - At some point, We need to admit that...
Stop trying to win the comp next year - And start trying to win it in 5-10 years.
The thing is, you're asking for several different things all at the same time. You don't want "stop gaps" or short term solutions, but you want to throw money at Wade Graham. You don't want to overpay unproven youth, but you want the club to build from within.
Sorry, I don't mean to have a crack because I totally agree that the club needs a long-term plan. The problem as I see it, though, is actually rather more simple: they have been crap at identifying talent for years. There isn't a single recipe for success other than recognising when a player is going to contribute.
How do clubs like Melbourne manage to keep their Cameron Munsters where we lose our James Tedescos? Why was Luke Lewis a brilliant veteran signing for the Sharks when James Tamou has been a crap one for us? Why did we give Nofoaluma a four-year deal at the absolute peak of his cost when the Raiders have lost Dugan, Ferguson, Milford, Cotric and more yet managed to find cheap replacements? I honestly think it comes down to identifying and properly valuing talent more than anything.
What I'm saying is there isn't a sweeping one-size-fits-all solution. We should be doing all of building from our own juniors, looking to poach talent from elsewhere, finding undervalued players on the open market and making marquee free agent signings. We just have to stop being useless at valuing all of them.
I don't think I am mate...
Wade Graham isn't a stop gap mate, He's of high character and would be of great assistance to a lot of our young players... We've got Garner, Blore, Leilua, Even Twal to a degree... All young players - Who's teaching them the tricks? Who's teaching them how tough you need to be? Who's teaching them how to keep going when you don't think you can... Who... It certainly wasn't Chris Lawrence.
There no point having all the best junior talent when there's no one to show them anything.... I used Wade Graham as an example - He would also be handy in the halves and centre to a degree... He's a footballer. A tough one.
There's a difference between paying too much for local talent and keeping local talent. We paid Brooks and Moses almost the going rate for an established half at the time... Barely played a game. Would we have lost them if we paid $250 instead of $450k? (Keeping in mind for 2015 they both went to $600k... This is 8 Years ago - When they didn't have 1 season behind them)
Needless to say Meyer didn't last long after that... Then Cleary signed a heap of busted stop gaps.... Woods offer from us was the best part of a million dollars, Went to the dogs for 800, Then to the sharks for 600... If we're overpaying, We need to overpay for Character, Not talent.... Build a team on Character and it will attract talent... A team of Talent won't attract character
(RIP WESTS TIGERS 2005-2011)
Gareth Ellis was super special, But there is another one out there - There just has to be.
Ok well this is where we disagree. If you think Wade Graham is the answer I'm afraid you're in dreamland. He's 31 and he's played an average of about 16 games a season over the past four years - he's exactly the same sort of busted, past-it old player we've signed and been let down by over and over again. What on earth makes you think his veteran leadership will be materially different from that provided by Tamou, Mbye, Ballin, Packer, Reynolds, Anasta or Matulino?
We don't need a "veteran footballer to show the kids the tricks". We need good footballers who can materially improve the roster on the field. We've tried recruiting character, over and over again. If we want character and know-how, it should be in the coaching team - not on the field, unless it can also contribute. No successful team recruits past it players because of their "leadership".
The thing is, when you say "stop gap" what you seem to mean is "bad player". How on earth is Wade Graham (31) not a stop gap when Josh Reynolds (29 when he signed for us) was? Just your idea of who's going to be a good role model, it appears.
You're not catching what I'm kicking mate, Or maybe I'm not kicking it as well as I could be....
I'm not overly suggesting We sign Wade Graham... But we need that type of Guy.. Nor would I suggest he's any sort of saviour... But he never ever gives up - And that's the type of Character we need...
100% guts... Will crawl through a river of crap for a win.
Although, His "16 Games a season" Would pale in Comparison to the guys (We actually did buy) you yourself are comparing him to... Would I take Wade Grahams average 16 over Matt Ballins average of 1... Yeah, Probably... Furthermore - When comparing his leadership, The guys you're comparing him to also pale in comparison to him in this area.
We've been lay down merchants for far too long.
I think we're talking about a different kind of "Character" You seem to be implying it's moral character - Good people... I'm talking about the kind of blokes you take to war with you... that lead by actions... Leaders of men.
And in the last 20 years - I can only really think of one that we've signed... One that every player in that team knows is going to bring it - No matter what.
One isn't enough...
No, I totally get what you're saying. It's just that you're not offering anything to explain why Wade Graham (or any other old lag) is going to provide this never-say-die attitude that will get the rest of the players performing above themselves in a way that all the other "proven leaders" we've signed didn't. What's different about him compared with Tamou or Packer (when we signed them)? Wade Graham has a career winning percentage of 49.8%; James Tamou 55.6%. Where does Graham's mysterious aura of invincibility come from? Because as it turns out he's crawled through a river of crap for a win on 259 occasions and on 130 of them has failed to get one.
And yes, I know you don't mean Graham specifically. But that makes your point even weaker: what you're asking for is generic leadership abilities that you can't define beyond saying apparently Wade Graham has them, and which we've repeatedly tried to recruit for and failed.
I also know you don't mean "good blokes". We didn't recruit Packer or McQueen or Matulino because they would be popular in the sheds - we wanted "enforcers" or "pack leaders". Again, pointless - because they were all past it.
We don't need "leadership", especially not when it comes from busted old players whose best years are half a decade behind them. We need good footballers.
We've had good footballers - It didn't work!!
We've had generational players - players that changed the game... It worked 3/14 years they were here.
We need workers, toilers... Blokes that aren't afraid to do the hard yards... I've been a worker all my life, I know what they look like.
Wade Graham is one, Gareth Ellis is another, The blokes you've mentioned aren't... That's why we are where we are...
We've got no work ethic, No Backbone... It's been our problem for a very long time. Never bothered to roll up the sleeves, graft away and get a win... (Give the ball to Benji and he'll dance us to victory) It's engrained in us...
I'd rather watch 13 Wade Grahams get lapped giving everything that watch our blokes give up chase on a line break, standing with hands on hips... Or not smacking blokes in Defence.
That's my opinion, Happy for you to not agree with it.
It's not about agreeing or not. I'm asking how you know Wade Graham has these magical super duper effort skills where Tamou, Packer, McQueen, Matulino, Mbye and so forth did not, and you've not even tried to explain. You keep saying Wade Graham (and apparently others like him) have this guts and glory thing but you can't and don't try to define it - it's just there, in a way you somehow recognise even when nobody else does. Then you more or less admit that you don't even think Wade Graham would be particularly good. So basically what you're saying is that you think the Tigers roster should be constructed based on possession of characteristics you cannot define even at the explicit exclusion of actual footballing ability. It's nonsense I'm afraid.
