Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

[jadtiger]

@TigerTiger By developing juniors you have first crack at them. First chance to see them, assess them, use them in first grade a re-sign them. The Tigers' problem is they don't take enough advantage of this window. When they "lock up" a player it's often only for a couple of years so, like Tedesco, they can still leave in their prime. Or they wait too long so, like Addo-Carr, the player's talent is widely known and there's no chance to get a favourable deal.

People on here always complain about big signings or the lack thereof, but you don't win premierships with players on full value or overs only. It's all about value - who is delivering more than their contract pays. A couple of pages ago there were people supporting the idea of signing George Burgess. Does anyone think there is any chance that guy is going to deliver more than his next contract pays him? You'll never see a club like Melbourne signing that kind of player unless for some reason they can get him for super cheap. It's dumbarse clubs like the Titans, Parra and Tigers that keep convincing themselves that one or two expensive "big name" players will somehow make all the difference.

To be successful, a club like the Tigers needs to put it's resources into identifying talent (meaning its own juniors and those from elsewhere) getting it when it's cheap and locking it up before the bidding war starts. It won't always work and of course there's no harm at all in complementing what you build with free agents where they really will make a difference. But it's got to be more efficient to find a Twal and sign him long term than to chase a succession of Packers.

You have hit the nail on the head,find early is the key not buying late

 

[Snake]

@jadtiger But that is not what is happening in the general league junior system. The clubs that are the most successful are the clubs that wait for clubs like the Tigers to spend years developing these kids to an age where the next step is NRL and they pounce. The system that the Weststigers have is flawed and is broken and this is made evident by the non success the club has had for a decade !
The culture these kids look for is a winning culture ,is this what the Weststigers offer? No ....It is all well and good having 5000k juniors but those same juniors need to want to be a part of the organisation long term . As someone has already written at the Roosters or the Storm it is just not The coaches it is the whole organisation these kids want a part of it simple.
Until the the Weststigers can fix what is broken nothing will change .. having thousands of juniors will
not guarantee success if the pathway is broken.

 

[gallagher]

Some of it is timing, they move clubs just at the time they are about to blossom as a player,

Thats my point exactly - Melbourne and rorters are very good at identifying these players that are developed elsewhere. Costs them nothing - they are nothing more than parasites. They sign them on minimum wage and if they don't work out its no big deal. Whereas clubs like us, Penrith, Parra are spending time, money and resources bringing these players through the ranks only to see the better ones end up playing elsewhere.

Yup, who are the dumb clubs?

 

[2041]

@Snake The way to fix it is to get better at identifying talent and be more decisive about locking it down. There's a reason why the full title of Moneyball adds "the art of winning an unfair game". The Tigers can't compete financially with the Roosters or Broncos, and that's what counts. Talk of winning cultures is garbage - if so, why aren't dozens of top free agents joining the Storm? Money talks, and if you don't have it you have to find talent by other means. And that means younger or overlooked.

 

[Newtown]

@TigerTiger By developing juniors you have first crack at them. First chance to see them, assess them, use them in first grade a re-sign them. The Tigers' problem is they don't take enough advantage of this window. When they "lock up" a player it's often only for a couple of years so, like Tedesco, they can still leave in their prime. Or they wait too long so, like Addo-Carr, the player's talent is widely known and there's no chance to get a favourable deal.

People on here always complain about big signings or the lack thereof, but you don't win premierships with players on full value or overs only. It's all about value - who is delivering more than their contract pays. A couple of pages ago there were people supporting the idea of signing George Burgess. Does anyone think there is any chance that guy is going to deliver more than his next contract pays him? You'll never see a club like Melbourne signing that kind of player unless for some reason they can get him for super cheap. It's dumbarse clubs like the Titans, Parra and Tigers that keep convincing themselves that one or two expensive "big name" players will somehow make all the difference.

To be successful, a club like the Tigers needs to put it's resources into identifying talent (meaning its own juniors and those from elsewhere) getting it when it's cheap and locking it up before the bidding war starts.

Didn't Wests Tigers try to tie up Mitchell Moses who still tied to a contract. The same happened with coach Cleary. NRL is now a case of "anything goes".

 

[2041]

@Newtown You won't win them all. What you shouldn't do is get to a point where your best four players are all coming off contract at the same time with no plan in place to replace them if they leave. Maybe the club should have given them offers sooner, or resigned themselves to losing Brooks and Woods so they could offer Moses and Tedesco more. Basically, be decisive. Work out who you want and do everything you can to lock them up long term before they reach maximum value.

Let's talk about the "big four", actually. You can make a decent case that the only two who ended up being value were Tedesco, bevause he's a truly generational talent, and Brooks, because he ended up signing for a smaller number. At the point where the Slimy Fart can demand 700-900k a year there's no value to ve had anyway - that's absolute peak value. If he wouldn't sign a year or two earlier for less money, he might as well go. Unless we need one more year out of him to win a premiership (which, er, 2017... you decide) let him look elsewhere and focus on Te Maire Martin, or Tyson Gamble, or whoever.

 

[tony soprano]

@diedpretty storm would probably love to take him

 

[AL The Tiger]

That Tupouniua bloke is off contract at the Roosters. We should have a crack

 

[hammertime]

I think our problem has been mainly front office and our facilities. We would have had a good chance of keeping Ted if our front office and coaching staff was like it is today.

Even more so if our COE comes to fruition.

We're on the right path now to build and retain junior tallent. Just a shame it wasn't sooner.

 

[jirskyr]

@innsaneink Being behind Slater was pretty much perfect for him though because he was 18 looking to come in to first grade over the next year or two which would coincide with Slater retiring.
Melbourne do seem to do a really good job of stockpiling talent though. They don't seem to care too much about being overstocked in positions, they just want talented kids in their system because they can pay off big time on relatively low contracts. Hopefully we start taking a similar approach with the likes of Cini, Talau etc. if they keep showing promise.

Also nobody can allow themselves to be ignorant of how many players Melbourne end up discarding. No argument they are a great system, and what better way for a young player to develop than away from Sydney/Brisbane microscopes, under basically the greatest coach of all time and some of the most elite players of all time. They also fail / cull just as many players as anyone else does.

I agree with @TigerTiger that it makes sense for Storm to identify a top junior prospect at FB when Slater is clearly on his last contract. Tedesco is nothing like that at all - either Paps plays wing his for his Tigers career or he leaves.

You also have to consider that Paps perhaps WANTED to leave Tigers, not just because of pathway to NRL behind Tedesco but also to want to be in the Melbourne system. In that regard it's not the recruitment guys / strategy to blame, it's the player management strategy.

Lastly I'll say that Paps left 2 years ago and I personally think it's a bit dumb to say "I told you so" after a totally different club had a teenage player for two whole years before putting them in FG. A player who never ever played FG before. Plenty - I'd argue most - promising players who leave clubs end up doing nothing special.

And Paps is about 5 matches into his FG career, typically coming on in the last 15 minutes and playing in one of the better sides in the comp. Moses Mbye would probably also playing eye-catching football if asked to take the field for Melbourne, up 24-6 and with all the running.

Let's let Paps play 50 games starting at fullback before deciding whether or not he was "one that got away".

 

[851]

That Tupouniua bloke is off contract at the Roosters. We should have a crack

He is on minimum wage, and he would probably be a starter in our pack, he is one I would definitely chase, as we could get a starting player for a discount price

 

[balmain boy]

That Tupouniua bloke is off contract at the Roosters. We should have a crack

He is on minimum wage, and he would probably be a starter in our pack, he is one I would definitely chase, as we could get a starting player for a discount price

The question is also why didn't we sign him last year? The Roosters have and have had an elite pack, a young up and coming forward has few opportunities to play there yet they have him on minimum wage. We could have offered a much more realistic path to first grade and more money. They always have the funds to keep players...

You'd offer him 200k on a 2 year deal for now.

 

[diedpretty]

@innsaneink Being behind Slater was pretty much perfect for him though because he was 18 looking to come in to first grade over the next year or two which would coincide with Slater retiring.
Melbourne do seem to do a really good job of stockpiling talent though. They don't seem to care too much about being overstocked in positions, they just want talented kids in their system because they can pay off big time on relatively low contracts. Hopefully we start taking a similar approach with the likes of Cini, Talau etc. if they keep showing promise.

Also nobody can allow themselves to be ignorant of how many players Melbourne end up discarding. No argument they are a great system, and what better way for a young player to develop than away from Sydney/Brisbane microscopes, under basically the greatest coach of all time and some of the most elite players of all time. They also fail / cull just as many players as anyone else does.

I agree with @TigerTiger that it makes sense for Storm to identify a top junior prospect at FB when Slater is clearly on his last contract. Tedesco is nothing like that at all - either Paps plays wing his for his Tigers career or he leaves.

You also have to consider that Paps perhaps WANTED to leave Tigers, not just because of pathway to NRL behind Tedesco but also to want to be in the Melbourne system. In that regard it's not the recruitment guys / strategy to blame, it's the player management strategy.

Lastly I'll say that Paps left 2 years ago and I personally think it's a bit dumb to say "I told you so" after a totally different club had a teenage player for two whole years before putting them in FG. A player who never ever played FG before. Plenty - I'd argue most - promising players who leave clubs end up doing nothing special.

And Paps is about 5 matches into his FG career, typically coming on in the last 15 minutes and playing in one of the better sides in the comp. Moses Mbye would probably also playing eye-catching football if asked to take the field for Melbourne, up 24-6 and with all the running.

Let's let Paps play 50 games starting at fullback before deciding whether or not he was "one that got away".

Your points are valid however it doesn't change the fact that Melbourne really contributed very little to his development from junior football through to NRL. You also stated that Melbourne cull a lot of players that we miss seeing. This backs up what i was saying - they get promising players in to their system on minimal wage and with no previous investment in their junior development. If 1 in every 10 turns out to be winner then they are laughing because it hasn't really cost them much and they just discard the other 9. My gripe is not about Papun its about teams like Melb and Easts picking the eyes out of development clubs with no compensation for all the time and effort that was put in by that development club.

 

[WT2K]

https://twitter.com/MichaelChammas/status/1127817670999437312?s=19

 

[balmain boy]

@WT2K Because Ayoub fell for that with Woods, Teddy and Moses?

 

[WT2K]

@Balmain_Boy my thoughts as well

 

[851]

The question is also why didn’t we sign him last year? The Roosters have and have had an elite pack, a young up and coming forward has few opportunities to play there yet they have him on minimum wage. We could have offered a much more realistic path to first grade and more money. They always have the funds to keep players…
You’d offer him 200k on a 2 year deal for now.

On what I have seen from him on the field, and I read an article about him and his family, that would be a steal

 

[Twodogs]

@pawsandclaws1 That's just insane. We take obsolete players like Packer when Bellamy and Bennett knew smaller players were back with the reduced interchange. Our entire buying system is flawed.

 

[jirskyr]

@innsaneink Being behind Slater was pretty much perfect for him though because he was 18 looking to come in to first grade over the next year or two which would coincide with Slater retiring.
Melbourne do seem to do a really good job of stockpiling talent though. They don't seem to care too much about being overstocked in positions, they just want talented kids in their system because they can pay off big time on relatively low contracts. Hopefully we start taking a similar approach with the likes of Cini, Talau etc. if they keep showing promise.

Also nobody can allow themselves to be ignorant of how many players Melbourne end up discarding. No argument they are a great system, and what better way for a young player to develop than away from Sydney/Brisbane microscopes, under basically the greatest coach of all time and some of the most elite players of all time. They also fail / cull just as many players as anyone else does.

I agree with @TigerTiger that it makes sense for Storm to identify a top junior prospect at FB when Slater is clearly on his last contract. Tedesco is nothing like that at all - either Paps plays wing his for his Tigers career or he leaves.

You also have to consider that Paps perhaps WANTED to leave Tigers, not just because of pathway to NRL behind Tedesco but also to want to be in the Melbourne system. In that regard it's not the recruitment guys / strategy to blame, it's the player management strategy.

Lastly I'll say that Paps left 2 years ago and I personally think it's a bit dumb to say "I told you so" after a totally different club had a teenage player for two whole years before putting them in FG. A player who never ever played FG before. Plenty - I'd argue most - promising players who leave clubs end up doing nothing special.

And Paps is about 5 matches into his FG career, typically coming on in the last 15 minutes and playing in one of the better sides in the comp. Moses Mbye would probably also playing eye-catching football if asked to take the field for Melbourne, up 24-6 and with all the running.

Let's let Paps play 50 games starting at fullback before deciding whether or not he was "one that got away".

Your points are valid however it doesn't change the fact that Melbourne really contributed very little to his development from junior football through to NRL. You also stated that Melbourne cull a lot of players that we miss seeing. This backs up what i was saying - they get promising players in to their system on minimal wage and with no previous investment in their junior development. If 1 in every 10 turns out to be winner then they are laughing because it hasn't really cost them much and they just discard the other 9. My gripe is not about Papun its about teams like Melb and Easts picking the eyes out of development clubs with no compensation for all the time and effort that was put in by that development club.

In that regard I totally agree with you - clubs never have sufficient reimbursement for bringing their own juniors forward. Melbourne I can somewhat understand because the Victorian juniors program is so lean as to be non-existent.

But otherwise there should be greater rewards for players you bring through your system - perhaps discounts the more years they play with you. I mooted that idea in the forum last year, that players should become cheaper as they reach more and more milestones with a club. It should become more difficult for clubs to poach players rather than easier. And nobody would complain if you identified and blooded an elite player that they couldn't prise off you because of the long-service discounts.

 

[jirskyr]

https://twitter.com/MichaelChammas/status/1127817670999437312?s=19

Dragons version of King Gutho or Storm version of King Gutho?