Thanks to whoever decided to Tell Austin he was no chance of first grade

[hybrid_tiger]

How does one qualify as a "successful club"? Current position on ladder? Total # premierships? Total # finals appearances? % all games won? % finals games won?

A finals appearance in most years shouldn't be too much to ask. Finishing in the top 8/16 teams isn't a monumental task.

If we are being honest making it 50% of the time and winning it rarely is a reasonable expectation. Every other club is also trying to do the same thing.

Yep, and 3/16 is our miserable strike rate, around 18%. It's pathetic.

 

[Tigermama]

Cant change the past, but we can change the idiots who made the past decisions.

Only problem is the solution could get you 20 years 😕

Lol, that's a small price to pay, don't you think :laughing:

Actually Mama it probably is worth it.

GCT, we're totally on the same page. :mrgreen:

 

[TrueTiger]

How does one qualify as a "successful club"? Current position on ladder? Total # premierships? Total # finals appearances? % all games won? % finals games won?

A finals appearance in most years shouldn't be too much to ask. Finishing in the top 8/16 teams isn't a monumental task.

I'm not to sure about the stats,but the Cows seem to be in the eight most years without winning a premiership….they seem to be consistent...something we are not...

 

[jirskyr]

How does one qualify as a "successful club"? Current position on ladder? Total # premierships? Total # finals appearances? % all games won? % finals games won?

Or how do you measure "successful recruitment"?

Mate seriously. Have you been given a job on here by the board to keep morale up on the forum??

I will tell exactly how you measure successful clubs and successful recruitment.

Its by winning football games and making finals

We have 3 finals appearances from 16 seasons. Which is disgusting really. Try and suger coat that (i bet you try)

Not trying to sugar coat anything. I wanted to understand what hybrid meant by a "successful club" because I named about 6-7 clubs who had bad recruitment stories, and he says all those clubs are successful.

Turns out "successful" for Hybrid means making the finals most years. But Stevetiger says making finals 50% of the time would be a good measure. TT says Cowboys are a good example of consistency. So already, differing opinions about exactly what constitutes "success".

This is a thread about recruitment, and I believe it is too simple an argument to say our recruitment sucks because we don't make enough finals series. There is more to success on the field than just recruitment, and I honestly don't believe the argument that WT are a bad recruitment/retention club just because we don't have a good finals record. There are many other reasons why we are an unsuccessful club, and I don't think Blake Austin is one of those reasons.

 

[jirskyr]

How does one qualify as a "successful club"? Current position on ladder? Total # premierships? Total # finals appearances? % all games won? % finals games won?

A finals appearance in most years shouldn't be too much to ask. Finishing in the top 8/16 teams isn't a monumental task.

If we are being honest making it 50% of the time and winning it rarely is a reasonable expectation. Every other club is also trying to do the same thing.

OK just for a bit of perspective, I selected 9 teams to look at since 2000.

Bearing in mind, saying "make finals 50% of the time = successful", statistically means about half the teams cannot ever be deemed successful. In other words, if more than half the teams make the finals more than 50% of the time, then the other half of the comp, mathematically, cannot make the finals more than 50%.

Looking at the table of teams with modest results, Tigers clearly have the worst finals appearance %. However we are equal with premierships and wooden spoons (so far) and 4th for crowds. We are 6th for all-time win/loss but 8th for F/A.

The real question is, would Sharks / Cowboys / Raiders / Eels trade their better finals appearance rate, or marginally better (at times) win/loss record to jag a premiership? Would Dragons be happy that they make the finals 60% of the time but are premiers only as often as the Tigers have been?

What about Souths? Current reigning premiers, surely they are successful, but since 2002 they have the most wooden spoons, worst F/A and worst win ratio.

Tigers finals % is very poor, I think worst in the comp. But success is a relative measurement, and it depends on the measurement you select. I think the real argument you can sell is that we are in the bottom half of the comp and have always been, but we already knew that much.

 

[hybrid_tiger]

Thanks for your detailed response.

You're right that "success" can be measured in many ways. The ultimate success is a premiership and we managed one (somehow), but aside from that year and two others, we have been a failure in most others.

IMO, setting the bar at making the finals (8/16) is very low and yet we rarely manage to do that. Of every single club in the league, we have the worst record of making the finals. It is embarrassing.

We won a premiership, yes, but should we settle for mediocrity ever since just because we managed that?

Sport is a results driven business and we just have not produced results over such a long and consistent period.

 

[Thunderlips]

When Moses turns into the superstar he's being groomed to be, all you Austin apologists be prepared to eat your words.

Apologist for what ? are you serious?

In this moment in time is what his being judged on and his better than Moses by the length of the Flemington straight .

No one isn't wishing Moses not to be a star or the best player in the game down the track , some people are just saying that Austin should of been retained and there's nothing to apologise about either .

I for one am glad Austin was let go, and all you Austin apologists are teary eyed because he's won a few games at Canberra. He'd only be useful to us this year coming off the bench instead of Santi. Blake Austin is not that great. So he's made a few line breaks this year, he showed he could do that last year with us, so what? He is an individual player, not a team player. Who is even his halves partner this year? He''ll break a tackle and run, he isn't setting anything up, check his assists this year. He is getting big wraps cause Ricky has given him free-reign to do whatever. He'd do nothing under the current system Taylor is trying run and defeats the whole purpose of giving Moses and Brooks a chance to mature earlier from experience. Defensively, he's as good as Brooks, a second year 21 year old. As for Moses, he's having a season defensively that mirrors Brooks last year.

This is Moses' first season in the top grade and he has shown promise paired with ability to be a much greater player than Austin. Especially, since he is playing under a controlled system, which he has said is the total opposite of how he grew up playing. Brooks has come a long way since last year, Moses can develop into a future captain for this club and letting some never-will-be like Austin play in front of him makes absolutely no sense to me.

Obviously, we all want wins now, however, that frustration can create irrational judgement. We should be trying to focus on the possible greatness we are watching grow with this young Tigers team. Lastly, Moses partnered with Brooks is better than either of them paired with Austin by the length of the Flemington straight .

 

[jirskyr]

IMO, setting the bar at making the finals (8/16) is very low and yet we rarely manage to do that. Of every single club in the league, we have the worst record of making the finals. It is embarrassing.

We won a premiership, yes, but should we settle for mediocrity ever since just because we managed that?

Actually, setting the bar at making the finals 50% is not low at all, it is right on average.

Certainly make the aim 100% of finals appearances.

But for every team that makes the finals more than 50%, someone else misses out. Mathematically, with an even competition, about half of all teams will not achieve more than 50% finals appearances.

It's the same reason why win/loss ratios are so consistently around 50%, because every time you win, you take a win away from someone else.

Your question whether or not a premiership substitutes for mediocre seasons, is obviously dependent on the individual. For me, winning one probably justifies 9 ordinary seasons. In a given year, no, I'm annoyed as hell that we don't make the finals, but to be able to look back on a premiership is precious.

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

I usually agree on all your posts but not this one.

Ferrari's in what? Holden Cup :laughing:. The board signed Brooks and Moses long term so which ever Coach answered that they will be using the Brooks and Moses combination got the job IMO.

Austin on the bench for 2015? Why does it have to be that way? Austin was the form 5/8th in 2014, it's up to Moses to play himself into form during pre Season . Austin proved his worth last year.

Well think of it another way.

Presuming you got what you wanted, that we kept Austin for 2015 and he is our best half. Where does that leave Moses? You say he has to play into form, but how does he do that behind another player, either being on the bench or playing out of position. And who is to say that Moses wasn't already playing himself into form at the end of 2014? Sure he was a bit on the skinny side, but he was 30 first grade games and 4 years behind Austin in experience.

And what would we have done with Austin at the end of 2015? His salary would have been up for a substantial increase, one we probably could not have afforded. You cannot stockpile good players that only cover one position, the salary cap does not permit it. Instead, you have to choose who you think is best return on investment, for what your club needs. In 2014 Austin had played some good games for us, plus 16 games in 3 years for Penrith. At the same time, Moses had also played some decent footy and was already signed for 3 more seasons.

There is no argument that Austin is playing good footy right now. There is PLENTY of argument about whether that good footy is a result of the Canberra structure / culture, and whether or not Austin would have managed that same form with us had he stayed. There is also plenty of argument about whether Moses will be a good long-term 5/8 solution.

But in terms of salary cap management, I totally understand the decision the Tigers made. In fact I respect that they let Austin go to a superior offer, when we could easily have forced him to stay for low salary in 2015\. Considering we had resurrected his career, it was within our rights to force him to play out another year with us.

But what would that have achieved? Would we be in 1st, or even 8th place, if Austin had stayed? Totally unknown. What is known, is that if he stayed and played well, we'd be facing the same issue now that we faced in 2014 - that we have invested in juniors and we cannot hold onto an infinite number of players in one position.

Indeed I think it would have been worse this year, had Austin been playing well, the idea of not being able to offer Austin an acceptable contract because we had no money left. I can only imagine the uproar.

I echo the comments CB made - that you cannot second-guess every decision the club ever makes about recruitment and retention. Some are going to be good decisions, some are going to be unfortunate decisions, and all decisions are informed by substantially more information than supporters are ever privy to.

But if you are a football follower, and you haven't figured it out yet, you better get used to the fact that we cannot keep every player that shows some potential. Salary cap forces educated guesses to be made, and without the cap, Broncos would be signing up all the players anyway.

To go on and on and on and on about ex-Tigers doing well at other clubs, it is just like someone banging on about their ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend. He's gone people, decision has been made. Either we fire the recruitment people every time a decision comes unstuck, or you suck it up as part of the wider way the game operates.

Dogs let Thurston go to Cowboys. Saints let Tallis and Mundine go to Broncos. Saints let Fitzgibbon go to Easts. Easts have let RTS go to Warriors, as have Souths Isaac Luke. Perhaps Souths should not have let Koroisau leave to Penrith, but Cowboys should not have let Segeyaro go to Penrith either. But then Cowboys picked up Granville from Broncos, who might rue that if McCullogh's form wanes.

And speaking of Broncos, they really should not have signed Barba from Canterbury, such a waste of money to then release him to Sharks. Sharks, who let Chad Townsend go, only to sign him back a few years later. Sharks who signed Anthony Tupou on a huge contract and saw his form slide away unbearably. Sharks who signed "the next big thing" Karl Filiga, who only ever managed one first grade game. But at least they got Jackson Bird from Saints, who must be spewing because they lost him when they haven't a decent backup to Widdop, who Storm didn't want to lose in the first place. And Sharks also got Luke Lewis from Penrith, who was a rep player at the time, and Gordon as well, who is now off to Parra because they think Holmes is a better prospect, even though he's only a kid. Penrith also releasing Jennings to Easts, what were they thinking; or Saints letting the Morris twins go individually to Canterbury, crazy, whilst Canterbury don't want to keep the current NSW half because Mybe might be better. Etc. etc.

You can go around forever tossing up these "what if" scenarios about player movements.

The biggest difference between the two players and peoples rating of them, is that people's opinion of Austin is based on what he has done both for us and for Canberra, In First Grade.
Moses rating is mainly made on what he DID in the lower grades, , On what he has shown in
first Grade, ( barely flashes of form) there can be no doubt about who would have been better for the clubs future. Although some want to forget blunders that this club makes( and I bet the admin would be happy with that)
IMO we should be reminding the club of their past blunders whenever we can, in the vain hope that they may eventually realise that we are peed off, and expect better from them
Or just keep shovelling your money to them and lay back and watch them throw it away.
It's not just about wanting to keep every player we have, but in knowing which ones to keep. Remember the stuffing around with Teddys contract as well. Canberra almost got both of them due to our bungling

 

[tsjonathan]

When Moses turns into the superstar he's being groomed to be, all you Austin apologists be prepared to eat your words.

Apologist for what ? are you serious?

In this moment in time is what his being judged on and his better than Moses by the length of the Flemington straight .

No one isn't wishing Moses not to be a star or the best player in the game down the track , some people are just saying that Austin should of been retained and there's nothing to apologise about either .

I for one am glad Austin was let go, and all you Austin apologists are teary eyed because he's won a few games at Canberra. He'd only be useful to us this year coming off the bench instead of Santi. Blake Austin is not that great. So he's made a few line breaks this year, he showed he could do that last year with us, so what? He is an individual player, not a team player. Who is even his halves partner this year? He''ll break a tackle and run, he isn't setting anything up, check his assists this year. He is getting big wraps cause Ricky has given him free-reign to do whatever. He'd do nothing under the current system Taylor is trying run and defeats the whole purpose of giving Moses and Brooks a chance to mature earlier from experience. Defensively, he's as good as Brooks, a second year 21 year old. As for Moses, he's having a season defensively that mirrors Brooks last year.

.

Actually Moses and Brooks are 20 years old.

 

[foreveratiger]

I usually agree on all your posts but not this one.

Ferrari's in what? Holden Cup :laughing:. The board signed Brooks and Moses long term so which ever Coach answered that they will be using the Brooks and Moses combination got the job IMO.

Austin on the bench for 2015? Why does it have to be that way? Austin was the form 5/8th in 2014, it's up to Moses to play himself into form during pre Season . Austin proved his worth last year.

Well think of it another way.

Presuming you got what you wanted, that we kept Austin for 2015 and he is our best half. Where does that leave Moses? You say he has to play into form, but how does he do that behind another player, either being on the bench or playing out of position. And who is to say that Moses wasn't already playing himself into form at the end of 2014? Sure he was a bit on the skinny side, but he was 30 first grade games and 4 years behind Austin in experience.

And what would we have done with Austin at the end of 2015? His salary would have been up for a substantial increase, one we probably could not have afforded. You cannot stockpile good players that only cover one position, the salary cap does not permit it. Instead, you have to choose who you think is best return on investment, for what your club needs. In 2014 Austin had played some good games for us, plus 16 games in 3 years for Penrith. At the same time, Moses had also played some decent footy and was already signed for 3 more seasons.

There is no argument that Austin is playing good footy right now. There is PLENTY of argument about whether that good footy is a result of the Canberra structure / culture, and whether or not Austin would have managed that same form with us had he stayed. There is also plenty of argument about whether Moses will be a good long-term 5/8 solution.

But in terms of salary cap management, I totally understand the decision the Tigers made. In fact I respect that they let Austin go to a superior offer, when we could easily have forced him to stay for low salary in 2015\. Considering we had resurrected his career, it was within our rights to force him to play out another year with us.

But what would that have achieved? Would we be in 1st, or even 8th place, if Austin had stayed? Totally unknown. What is known, is that if he stayed and played well, we'd be facing the same issue now that we faced in 2014 - that we have invested in juniors and we cannot hold onto an infinite number of players in one position.

Indeed I think it would have been worse this year, had Austin been playing well, the idea of not being able to offer Austin an acceptable contract because we had no money left. I can only imagine the uproar.

I echo the comments CB made - that you cannot second-guess every decision the club ever makes about recruitment and retention. Some are going to be good decisions, some are going to be unfortunate decisions, and all decisions are informed by substantially more information than supporters are ever privy to.

But if you are a football follower, and you haven't figured it out yet, you better get used to the fact that we cannot keep every player that shows some potential. Salary cap forces educated guesses to be made, and without the cap, Broncos would be signing up all the players anyway.

To go on and on and on and on about ex-Tigers doing well at other clubs, it is just like someone banging on about their ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend. He's gone people, decision has been made. Either we fire the recruitment people every time a decision comes unstuck, or you suck it up as part of the wider way the game operates.

Dogs let Thurston go to Cowboys. Saints let Tallis and Mundine go to Broncos. Saints let Fitzgibbon go to Easts. Easts have let RTS go to Warriors, as have Souths Isaac Luke. Perhaps Souths should not have let Koroisau leave to Penrith, but Cowboys should not have let Segeyaro go to Penrith either. But then Cowboys picked up Granville from Broncos, who might rue that if McCullogh's form wanes.

And speaking of Broncos, they really should not have signed Barba from Canterbury, such a waste of money to then release him to Sharks. Sharks, who let Chad Townsend go, only to sign him back a few years later. Sharks who signed Anthony Tupou on a huge contract and saw his form slide away unbearably. Sharks who signed "the next big thing" Karl Filiga, who only ever managed one first grade game. But at least they got Jackson Bird from Saints, who must be spewing because they lost him when they haven't a decent backup to Widdop, who Storm didn't want to lose in the first place. And Sharks also got Luke Lewis from Penrith, who was a rep player at the time, and Gordon as well, who is now off to Parra because they think Holmes is a better prospect, even though he's only a kid. Penrith also releasing Jennings to Easts, what were they thinking; or Saints letting the Morris twins go individually to Canterbury, crazy, whilst Canterbury don't want to keep the current NSW half because Mybe might be better. Etc. etc.

You can go around forever tossing up these "what if" scenarios about player movements.

The biggest difference between the two players and peoples rating of them, is that people's opinion of Austin is based on what he has done both for us and for Canberra, In First Grade.
Moses rating is mainly made on what he DID in the lower grades, , On what he has shown in
first Grade, ( barely flashes of form) there can be no doubt about who would have been better for the clubs future. Although some want to forget blunders that this club makes( and I bet the admin would be happy with that)
IMO we should be reminding the club of their past blunders whenever we can, in the vain hope that they may eventually realise that we are peed off, and expect better from them
Or just keep shovelling your money to them and lay back and watch them throw it away.
It's not just about wanting to keep every player we have, but in knowing which ones to keep. Remember the stuffing around with Teddys contract as well. Canberra almost got both of them due to our bungling

jirskyr massive post and you do make some points that i already know , i've supported the game for a long time and have played it a very good level aswell back in the Day….to know a bit , not necessarily correct in some people's eyes .

I just want to brief it very simple and i have the same thought process as GT .

I don't hate Moses nor do i wish him not to succeed to have a laugh in a few years time and say to myself " and those guys on the Forum thought Moses was the next Fittler" .
I hope Moses becomes a Club legend along with Brooks and in 10 years time we can say that was the best combination we have had in the History of this Joint Venture .
By me thinking we should have kept Austin does not mean i wanted Moses punted from the Club , maybe half a year in Reserve Grade playing with grown Men as appose to under 20's kids would have done a well of good ? i don't know . At the same time i can understand the offer the Raiders came in forced the hand of our Club to make a decision right there and there.

I haven't got a crystal ball and predict that Moses will be the one , no one can. But at this present moment in time i am judging what i am seeing and there is no denying that Austin is a better player , the people that are saying Moses is better is purely on POTENTIAL they see which doesn't necessarily mean it will be replicated in 1st Grade. The POTENTIAL people have seen in Moses is what he has done in the under 20's which mean squat in 1st Grade.

Now whether Jason Taylor is making Moses play a different game to what he has been accustomed to ? i don't know , that is anyone's guess.

I remember Jacob Miller was talked about the next big thing here but he was only given 4 1st Grade games and shown the door and released to the Super League at the end of that year . why didn't the Club give him more time to develop his skills in 1st Grade like Moses and Brooks have ?
Because our Salary Cap is a shambles and have no choice but to persevere with these kids now , even as bad as they might be in 1st Grade at times ? there simply isn't anyone else .

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

I usually agree on all your posts but not this one.

Ferrari's in what? Holden Cup :laughing:. The board signed Brooks and Moses long term so which ever Coach answered that they will be using the Brooks and Moses combination got the job IMO.

Austin on the bench for 2015? Why does it have to be that way? Austin was the form 5/8th in 2014, it's up to Moses to play himself into form during pre Season . Austin proved his worth last year.

Well think of it another way.

Presuming you got what you wanted, that we kept Austin for 2015 and he is our best half. Where does that leave Moses? You say he has to play into form, but how does he do that behind another player, either being on the bench or playing out of position. And who is to say that Moses wasn't already playing himself into form at the end of 2014? Sure he was a bit on the skinny side, but he was 30 first grade games and 4 years behind Austin in experience.

And what would we have done with Austin at the end of 2015? His salary would have been up for a substantial increase, one we probably could not have afforded. You cannot stockpile good players that only cover one position, the salary cap does not permit it. Instead, you have to choose who you think is best return on investment, for what your club needs. In 2014 Austin had played some good games for us, plus 16 games in 3 years for Penrith. At the same time, Moses had also played some decent footy and was already signed for 3 more seasons.

There is no argument that Austin is playing good footy right now. There is PLENTY of argument about whether that good footy is a result of the Canberra structure / culture, and whether or not Austin would have managed that same form with us had he stayed. There is also plenty of argument about whether Moses will be a good long-term 5/8 solution.

But in terms of salary cap management, I totally understand the decision the Tigers made. In fact I respect that they let Austin go to a superior offer, when we could easily have forced him to stay for low salary in 2015\. Considering we had resurrected his career, it was within our rights to force him to play out another year with us.

But what would that have achieved? Would we be in 1st, or even 8th place, if Austin had stayed? Totally unknown. What is known, is that if he stayed and played well, we'd be facing the same issue now that we faced in 2014 - that we have invested in juniors and we cannot hold onto an infinite number of players in one position.

Indeed I think it would have been worse this year, had Austin been playing well, the idea of not being able to offer Austin an acceptable contract because we had no money left. I can only imagine the uproar.

I echo the comments CB made - that you cannot second-guess every decision the club ever makes about recruitment and retention. Some are going to be good decisions, some are going to be unfortunate decisions, and all decisions are informed by substantially more information than supporters are ever privy to.

But if you are a football follower, and you haven't figured it out yet, you better get used to the fact that we cannot keep every player that shows some potential. Salary cap forces educated guesses to be made, and without the cap, Broncos would be signing up all the players anyway.

To go on and on and on and on about ex-Tigers doing well at other clubs, it is just like someone banging on about their ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend. He's gone people, decision has been made. Either we fire the recruitment people every time a decision comes unstuck, or you suck it up as part of the wider way the game operates.

Dogs let Thurston go to Cowboys. Saints let Tallis and Mundine go to Broncos. Saints let Fitzgibbon go to Easts. Easts have let RTS go to Warriors, as have Souths Isaac Luke. Perhaps Souths should not have let Koroisau leave to Penrith, but Cowboys should not have let Segeyaro go to Penrith either. But then Cowboys picked up Granville from Broncos, who might rue that if McCullogh's form wanes.

And speaking of Broncos, they really should not have signed Barba from Canterbury, such a waste of money to then release him to Sharks. Sharks, who let Chad Townsend go, only to sign him back a few years later. Sharks who signed Anthony Tupou on a huge contract and saw his form slide away unbearably. Sharks who signed "the next big thing" Karl Filiga, who only ever managed one first grade game. But at least they got Jackson Bird from Saints, who must be spewing because they lost him when they haven't a decent backup to Widdop, who Storm didn't want to lose in the first place. And Sharks also got Luke Lewis from Penrith, who was a rep player at the time, and Gordon as well, who is now off to Parra because they think Holmes is a better prospect, even though he's only a kid. Penrith also releasing Jennings to Easts, what were they thinking; or Saints letting the Morris twins go individually to Canterbury, crazy, whilst Canterbury don't want to keep the current NSW half because Mybe might be better. Etc. etc.

You can go around forever tossing up these "what if" scenarios about player movements.

The biggest difference between the two players and peoples rating of them, is that people's opinion of Austin is based on what he has done both for us and for Canberra, In First Grade.
Moses rating is mainly made on what he DID in the lower grades, , On what he has shown in
first Grade, ( barely flashes of form) there can be no doubt about who would have been better for the clubs future. Although some want to forget blunders that this club makes( and I bet the admin would be happy with that)
IMO we should be reminding the club of their past blunders whenever we can, in the vain hope that they may eventually realise that we are peed off, and expect better from them
Or just keep shovelling your money to them and lay back and watch them throw it away.
It's not just about wanting to keep every player we have, but in knowing which ones to keep. Remember the stuffing around with Teddys contract as well. Canberra almost got both of them due to our bungling

jirskyr massive post and you do make some points that i already know , i've supported the game for a long time and have played it a very good level aswell back in the Day….to know a bit , not necessarily correct in some people's eyes .

I just want to brief it very simple and i have the same thought process as GT .

I don't hate Moses nor do i wish him not to succeed to have a laugh in a few years time and say to myself " and those guys on the Forum thought Moses was the next Fittler" .
I hope Moses becomes a Club legend along with Brooks and in 10 years time we can say that was the best combination we have had in the History of this Joint Venture .
By me thinking we should have kept Austin does not mean i wanted Moses punted from the Club , maybe half a year in Reserve Grade playing with grown Men as appose to under 20's kids would have done a well of good ? i don't know . At the same time i can understand the offer the Raiders came in forced the hand of our Club to make a decision right there and there.

I haven't got a crystal ball and predict that Moses will be the one , no one can. But at this present moment in time i am judging what i am seeing and there is no denying that Austin is a better player , the people that are saying Moses is better is purely on POTENTIAL they see which doesn't necessarily mean it will be replicated in 1st Grade. The POTENTIAL people have seen in Moses is what he has done in the under 20's which mean squat in 1st Grade.

Now whether Jason Taylor is making Moses play a different game to what he has been accustomed to ? i don't know , that is anyone's guess.

I remember Jacob Miller was talked about the next big thing here but he was only given 4 1st Grade games and shown the door and released to the Super League at the end of that year . why didn't the Club give him more time to develop his skills in 1st Grade like Moses and Brooks have ?
Because our Salary Cap is a shambles and have no choice but to persevere with these kids now , even as bad as they might be in 1st Grade at times ? there simply isn't anyone else .

Good post FT

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

When Moses turns into the superstar he's being groomed to be, all you Austin apologists be prepared to eat your words.

Apologist for what ? are you serious?

In this moment in time is what his being judged on and his better than Moses by the length of the Flemington straight .

No one isn't wishing Moses not to be a star or the best player in the game down the track , some people are just saying that Austin should of been retained and there's nothing to apologise about either .

I for one am glad Austin was let go, and all you Austin apologists are teary eyed because he's won a few games at Canberra. He'd only be useful to us this year coming off the bench instead of Santi. Blake Austin is not that great. So he's made a few line breaks this year, he showed he could do that last year with us, so what? He is an individual player, not a team player. Who is even his halves partner this year? He''ll break a tackle and run, he isn't setting anything up, check his assists this year. He is getting big wraps cause Ricky has given him free-reign to do whatever. He'd do nothing under the current system Taylor is trying run and defeats the whole purpose of giving Moses and Brooks a chance to mature earlier from experience. Defensively, he's as good as Brooks, a second year 21 year old. As for Moses, he's having a season defensively that mirrors Brooks last year.

This is Moses' first season in the top grade and he has shown promise paired with ability to be a much greater player than Austin. Especially, since he is playing under a controlled system, which he has said is the total opposite of how he grew up playing. Brooks has come a long way since last year, Moses can develop into a future captain for this club and letting some never-will-be like Austin play in front of him makes absolutely no sense to me.

Obviously, we all want wins now, however, that frustration can create irrational judgement. We should be trying to focus on the possible greatness we are watching grow with this young Tigers team. Lastly, Moses partnered with Brooks is better than either of them paired with Austin by the length of the Flemington straight .

WELL! That settles that then.
We best ring Ricky and let him know that Austin is crud.
I bet he didn't even know.
While we are at it , we need to let Loz know , to keep that Soo position open for Mitch next year.
We'l add that the position should be gauranteed to Moses for the next 10 Years, no matter how he plays, so he feels at home

 

[Russell]

Foreveratiger wrote:

I just want to brief it very simple and i have the same thought process as GT .

I don't hate Moses nor do i wish him not to succeed to have a laugh in a few years time and say to myself " and those guys on the Forum thought Moses was the next Fittler" .
I hope Moses becomes a Club legend along with Brooks and in 10 years time we can say that was the best combination we have had in the History of this Joint Venture .
By me thinking we should have kept Austin does not mean i wanted Moses punted from the Club , maybe half a year in Reserve Grade playing with grown Men as appose to under 20's kids would have done a well of good ? i don't know . At the same time i can understand the offer the Raiders came in forced the hand of our Club to make a decision right there and there.

I haven't got a crystal ball and predict that Moses will be the one , no one can. But at this present moment in time i am judging what i am seeing and there is no denying that Austin is a better player , the people that are saying Moses is better is purely on POTENTIAL they see which doesn't necessarily mean it will be replicated in 1st Grade. The POTENTIAL people have seen in Moses is what he has done in the under 20's which mean squat in 1st Grade.

Now whether Jason Taylor is making Moses play a different game to what he has been accustomed to ? i don't know , that is anyone's guess.

I remember Jacob Miller was talked about the next big thing here but he was only given 4 1st Grade games and shown the door and released to the Super League at the end of that year . why didn't the Club give him more time to develop his skills in 1st Grade like Moses and Brooks have ?
Because our Salary Cap is a shambles and have no choice but to persevere with these kids now , even as bad as they might be in 1st Grade at times ? there simply isn't anyone else . "QUOTE"

Sorry these posts are getting too long.

I will also be brief.

Your opinion that Austin is better than Moses at the moment and that we would have been better, if he was with us this year, is your opinion. I am not going to take you to task for that - you are entitled to say what you like.

I would like to point out a couple of things though and it depends on what aspirations you want the club to have. Quick fix or long term gain.

1\. Austin is the quick fix man. Basically he plays for himself, I could not tell you how many tries he bombed at WT by not passing. Yes, and he went "on his own" and scored quite a few as well. Was he building a team combination and mentality - No, I don't think so. (This is just my take here - whether you like JT or not, whether you like the style he is trying to implement or not doesn't worry me - BUT, JT could not build a structure with Austin at 5/8).

2\. Moses, also has a bag full of tricks but he is a team player, he sets other people up to score, builds combinations and promotes a team mentality. He is not a quick fix, will not learn anything in NSW Cup and more importantly will not build combinations with NRL team mates in the NSW Cup.

3\. It is a fact that JT is holding him back. JT and Moses have both confirmed that. The reason for this is for the benefit of the team. To make him and Brooks team players and sometimes individual players (when opportunity strikes). But more importantly when the game starts falling apart (ah-lah Canterbury and Canberra) they have a structure to fall back on to get the team out of trouble.

4\. Some of us think Moses is hopeless, some are not sure of his potential and there are others like myself who think he will be a world beater (but not overnight). Having said that - I would think that every one of us, is hoping that each and every one of these youngsters is going to be a champion. Only time will tell.

5\. Final point on Jacob Miller - it was previous management and a previous coach who made the decisions on this kid. He never showed the potential of Moses, Brooks or Martin imo. They made the right decision as time has and will prove.

 

[tsjonathan]

I usually agree on all your posts but not this one.

Ferrari's in what? Holden Cup :laughing:. The board signed Brooks and Moses long term so which ever Coach answered that they will be using the Brooks and Moses combination got the job IMO.

Austin on the bench for 2015? Why does it have to be that way? Austin was the form 5/8th in 2014, it's up to Moses to play himself into form during pre Season . Austin proved his worth last year.

Well think of it another way.

Presuming you got what you wanted, that we kept Austin for 2015 and he is our best half. Where does that leave Moses? You say he has to play into form, but how does he do that behind another player, either being on the bench or playing out of position. And who is to say that Moses wasn't already playing himself into form at the end of 2014? Sure he was a bit on the skinny side, but he was 30 first grade games and 4 years behind Austin in experience.

And what would we have done with Austin at the end of 2015? His salary would have been up for a substantial increase, one we probably could not have afforded. You cannot stockpile good players that only cover one position, the salary cap does not permit it. Instead, you have to choose who you think is best return on investment, for what your club needs. In 2014 Austin had played some good games for us, plus 16 games in 3 years for Penrith. At the same time, Moses had also played some decent footy and was already signed for 3 more seasons.

There is no argument that Austin is playing good footy right now. There is PLENTY of argument about whether that good footy is a result of the Canberra structure / culture, and whether or not Austin would have managed that same form with us had he stayed. There is also plenty of argument about whether Moses will be a good long-term 5/8 solution.

But in terms of salary cap management, I totally understand the decision the Tigers made. In fact I respect that they let Austin go to a superior offer, when we could easily have forced him to stay for low salary in 2015\. Considering we had resurrected his career, it was within our rights to force him to play out another year with us.

But what would that have achieved? Would we be in 1st, or even 8th place, if Austin had stayed? Totally unknown. What is known, is that if he stayed and played well, we'd be facing the same issue now that we faced in 2014 - that we have invested in juniors and we cannot hold onto an infinite number of players in one position.

Indeed I think it would have been worse this year, had Austin been playing well, the idea of not being able to offer Austin an acceptable contract because we had no money left. I can only imagine the uproar.

I echo the comments CB made - that you cannot second-guess every decision the club ever makes about recruitment and retention. Some are going to be good decisions, some are going to be unfortunate decisions, and all decisions are informed by substantially more information than supporters are ever privy to.

But if you are a football follower, and you haven't figured it out yet, you better get used to the fact that we cannot keep every player that shows some potential. Salary cap forces educated guesses to be made, and without the cap, Broncos would be signing up all the players anyway.

To go on and on and on and on about ex-Tigers doing well at other clubs, it is just like someone banging on about their ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend. He's gone people, decision has been made. Either we fire the recruitment people every time a decision comes unstuck, or you suck it up as part of the wider way the game operates.

Dogs let Thurston go to Cowboys. Saints let Tallis and Mundine go to Broncos. Saints let Fitzgibbon go to Easts. Easts have let RTS go to Warriors, as have Souths Isaac Luke. Perhaps Souths should not have let Koroisau leave to Penrith, but Cowboys should not have let Segeyaro go to Penrith either. But then Cowboys picked up Granville from Broncos, who might rue that if McCullogh's form wanes.

And speaking of Broncos, they really should not have signed Barba from Canterbury, such a waste of money to then release him to Sharks. Sharks, who let Chad Townsend go, only to sign him back a few years later. Sharks who signed Anthony Tupou on a huge contract and saw his form slide away unbearably. Sharks who signed "the next big thing" Karl Filiga, who only ever managed one first grade game. But at least they got Jackson Bird from Saints, who must be spewing because they lost him when they haven't a decent backup to Widdop, who Storm didn't want to lose in the first place. And Sharks also got Luke Lewis from Penrith, who was a rep player at the time, and Gordon as well, who is now off to Parra because they think Holmes is a better prospect, even though he's only a kid. Penrith also releasing Jennings to Easts, what were they thinking; or Saints letting the Morris twins go individually to Canterbury, crazy, whilst Canterbury don't want to keep the current NSW half because Mybe might be better. Etc. etc.

You can go around forever tossing up these "what if" scenarios about player movements.

The biggest difference between the two players and peoples rating of them, is that people's opinion of Austin is based on what he has done both for us and for Canberra, In First Grade.
Moses rating is mainly made on what he DID in the lower grades, , On what he has shown in
first Grade, ( barely flashes of form) there can be no doubt about who would have been better for the clubs future. Although some want to forget blunders that this club makes( and I bet the admin would be happy with that)
IMO we should be reminding the club of their past blunders whenever we can, in the vain hope that they may eventually realise that we are peed off, and expect better from them
Or just keep shovelling your money to them and lay back and watch them throw it away.
It's not just about wanting to keep every player we have, but in knowing which ones to keep. Remember the stuffing around with Teddys contract as well. Canberra almost got both of them due to our bungling

jirskyr massive post and you do make some points that i already know , i've supported the game for a long time and have played it a very good level aswell back in the Day….to know a bit , not necessarily correct in some people's eyes .

I just want to brief it very simple and i have the same thought process as GT .

Many on here have said Miller had no where near the same amount of talent as what Brooks and Moses showed in the lower grades and therefore unfair to compare. Moses and Brooks have shown far more potential than Miller.

I don't hate Moses nor do i wish him not to succeed to have a laugh in a few years time and say to myself " and those guys on the Forum thought Moses was the next Fittler" .
I hope Moses becomes a Club legend along with Brooks and in 10 years time we can say that was the best combination we have had in the History of this Joint Venture .
By me thinking we should have kept Austin does not mean i wanted Moses punted from the Club , maybe half a year in Reserve Grade playing with grown Men as appose to under 20's kids would have done a well of good ? i don't know . At the same time i can understand the offer the Raiders came in forced the hand of our Club to make a decision right there and there.

I haven't got a crystal ball and predict that Moses will be the one , no one can. But at this present moment in time i am judging what i am seeing and there is no denying that Austin is a better player , the people that are saying Moses is better is purely on POTENTIAL they see which doesn't necessarily mean it will be replicated in 1st Grade. The POTENTIAL people have seen in Moses is what he has done in the under 20's which mean squat in 1st Grade.

Now whether Jason Taylor is making Moses play a different game to what he has been accustomed to ? i don't know , that is anyone's guess.

I remember Jacob Miller was talked about the next big thing here but he was only given 4 1st Grade games and shown the door and released to the Super League at the end of that year . why didn't the Club give him more time to develop his skills in 1st Grade like Moses and Brooks have ?
Because our Salary Cap is a shambles and have no choice but to persevere with these kids now , even as bad as they might be in 1st Grade at times ? there simply isn't anyone else .

 

[Joelcainenumber1fan]

why dont we compare moses and austin first year? austin is like 4 years older he should be better
im not fussed about austin at all if he was as good as people say how come raiders are only 4 points in front of us :crazy

 

[Telltails]

Its like the song that never ends….

 

[innsaneink]

How does one qualify as a "successful club"? Current position on ladder? Total # premierships? Total # finals appearances? % all games won? % finals games won?

A finals appearance in most years shouldn't be too much to ask. Finishing in the top 8/16 teams isn't a monumental task.

I'm not to sure about the stats,but the Cows seem to be in the eight most years without winning a premiership….they seem to be consistent...something we are not...

Seven seasons since 2000

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

When Moses turns into the superstar he's being groomed to be, all you Austin apologists be prepared to eat your words.

Apologist for what ? are you serious?

In this moment in time is what his being judged on and his better than Moses by the length of the Flemington straight .

No one isn't wishing Moses not to be a star or the best player in the game down the track , some people are just saying that Austin should of been retained and there's nothing to apologise about either .

I for one am glad Austin was let go, and all you Austin apologists are teary eyed because he's won a few games at Canberra. He'd only be useful to us this year coming off the bench instead of Santi. Blake Austin is not that great. So he's made a few line breaks this year, he showed he could do that last year with us, so what? He is an individual player, not a team player. Who is even his halves partner this year? He''ll break a tackle and run, he isn't setting anything up, check his assists this year. He is getting big wraps cause Ricky has given him free-reign to do whatever. He'd do nothing under the current system Taylor is trying run and defeats the whole purpose of giving Moses and Brooks a chance to mature earlier from experience. Defensively, he's as good as Brooks, a second year 21 year old. As for Moses, he's having a season defensively that mirrors Brooks last year.

.

Actually Moses and Brooks are 20 years old.

I think he is serious FT
I also think he's Mitch's Dad :laughing:

 

[stevetiger]

This is a thread about recruitment, and I believe it is too simple an argument to say our recruitment sucks because we don't make enough finals series. There is more to success on the field than just recruitment, and I honestly don't believe the argument that WT are a bad recruitment/retention club just because we don't have a good finals record. There are many other reasons why we are an unsuccessful club, and I don't think Blake Austin is one of those reasons.

I agree with your comments on recruitment. I think it comes down to recruitment and retention.

I think losing Austin is a classic example of a mistake being made but it is nothing compared to the Koro/Richards situation. I think Moses is going pretty well and will improve. I think Richards has cost us plenty of games and his weakness is Koro's strength. I think Taupau was a great signing because we got him cheapish and he is an explosive forward which was something that we lacked.

Basically I think recruitment and retention comes down to looking to get the most value out of your purchases and focussing on areas where we are lacking.

As for being an unsuccessful club I'm not convinced. 2005 was a great win. Plenty of clubs don't win premierships. I do think we have some issues however I think getting recruitment and retention right along with a quality coach are all that is required to be more successful.