THE 4......THREAD

@ said:
I can see Isaac Moses changing tack now. He'll say "sign all 4 of my clients or you won't get any"

The risk of holding out for everything, is that you may end up with nothing. The big 4's manager is seeing their value drop after each game. Teddy and Woods can probably get what they are asking elsewhere but Mitch and Luke's stock is in deep decline.

thats essentially where it has been for a while now, with a side dish of give Whebe a job, and Whebes mate the masseuse. When Taylor put the kibosh on the masseuse, the Wheebe deal fell apart, and Isaac turned the screws on Taylors axing.
 
@ said:
I can see Isaac Moses changing tack now. He'll say "sign all 4 of my clients or you won't get any"

The risk of holding out for everything, is that you may end up with nothing. The big 4's manager is seeing their value drop after each game. Teddy and Woods can probably get what they are asking elsewhere but Mitch and Luke's stock is in deep decline.

I can't see him doing that at all. His job is to look after the best interests of his clients, not holding a club to ransom. if he took that tact he'll be out of a job.
 
@ said:
I can see Isaac Moses changing tack now. He'll say "sign all 4 of my clients or you won't get any"

The risk of holding out for everything, is that you may end up with nothing. The big 4's manager is seeing their value drop after each game. Teddy and Woods can probably get what they are asking elsewhere but Mitch and Luke's stock is in deep decline.

How can Isaac Moses do that? If he moves them on from Tigers then no other club will sign all 4, he'd force them to be split up.
 
@ said:
I can see Isaac Moses changing tack now. He'll say "sign all 4 of my clients or you won't get any"

The risk of holding out for everything, is that you may end up with nothing. The big 4's manager is seeing their value drop after each game. Teddy and Woods can probably get what they are asking elsewhere but Mitch and Luke's stock is in deep decline.

If he is smart that won't happen.
Cleary has a history of getting rid of big name players if they didn't follow his expectations.

It wouldn't surprise me especially with the cap decrease on initial estimates if they are 't sorted quickly.
 
Another positive article..
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APRIL 3 2017 - 6:50PM

Ivan Cleary positive after individual meetings with Wests Tigers' 'big four'

Michael Chammas
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Ivan Cleary was only an hour into his tenure at the Wests Tigers before he sat down with each member of the so called big four to gauge just how much they wanted to remain at the club.

The Tigers trumpeted a three-and-a half-year deal for Cleary on Monday afternoon, but there will be no more pivotal period during his reign than the the next month, in which he must make crucial decisions regarding the future of James Tedesco, Aaron Woods, Mitchell Moses and Luke Brooks.

Will they stay? Will they go? Does Cleary even want them around?

They are all questions without answers at the moment, but you can rest assured the new coach will want them answered in a hurry as he begins the mammoth task of resurrecting the club's fortunes.

"The club has made it perfectly clear that they want these boys to stay," Cleary said at Wests Ashfield Leagues Club on Monday afternoon.

"From my point of view, from the outside looking in, that would be a fairly normal thing to do. The reality is it doesn't matter who you are and where you fit into the roster, it has always got to be at the right value. Some figures just came out at the weekend about the cap as well so all these things have to be taken into account.

"Without going into detail with each of those guys, what we want to do is get some certainty around the roster and make sure every player - no matter how much money he gets or where he fits into the team – is committed to the future of this club."

While Cleary described his conversations with the players on Monday morning as "positive", the future of the "big four" remains in limbo.

There have been a number of issues over the past two years that has impacted on their happiness at the Tigers, something that became obvious to their new coach after their brief meeting on Monday.

"I got the impression it hasn't been easy for them," Cleary said. "Nothing more than that. It's been difficult and have been in the spotlight big time. That's the nature of being high-profile and you're unsigned – it doesn't matter who you are. That's what goes with it.
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"The reality is it is what it is right now. There is only one way to stop it and that is that they either sign for the Tigers or they don't. Unfortunately the way it has all unfolded, looking from the outside in, this has been cultivated over a five- or six-week period.

"As you guys well know, all that does is get bigger and bigger and bigger, and the pressure increases. Again, one thing hopefully my appointment today leads to some certainty. The next step the more of that we can get the better. Getting players signed away and getting your roster sorted as quickly as you can, that allows more certainty."

THE PROBLEMS THAT NEED FIXING

The Wests Tigers have the worst defensive record in the competition to start the season, and there have been few signs of improvement over the opening five rounds of the season.

A soft underbelly, compounded by a relentless need to roll the dice on every tackle, has seen the Tigers plummet to the bottom of the NRL ladder.

Cleary has watched every game and has already earmarked what he believes is the Tigers' major concern.

"Probably the biggest thing I have seen is that they just have periods when they drop out of the game," Cleary said.

"There is not a lot of rhythm in how they're playing. There are good periods – they start each game well. They're probably not dealing with setbacks well. When momentum shifts, they're struggling to absorb that and turn it around.

"I am convinced each man is trying as hard as they can but sometimes it's not collective. Why that is, I don't know. But you can be sure that if environmentally there are some distractions and uncertainty, that's going to be hard to bring all that together."

WHY THE WESTS TIGERS ARE RIGHT FOR CLEARY

Cleary was always going to be the next coach to land a gig when one became available. So the question had to be asked: was this the right job or just a job?

"It's a balance," Cleary said. "It crossed my mind. You don't want to set yourself up for failure. I definitely don't think I'm doing that here. Having said that, there might be some hard days ahead.

"But in terms of balance, you just don't know when a job is going to come up either. All I can say is this one did come up and I liked what I saw. They did too luckily, and now we're here.

WHY THE TIGERS CAN STILL MAKE THE SEMIS

While Cleary admits there is a chance the club may need to go backwards to go forwards, he isn't willing to write off the club's chances of an unlikely charge to the finals.

"I absolutely haven't discounted making the semis," he said.

"What I have learnt over the years is that not many people remember the first quarter of the year by the end of the year. From an external point, if you look at the way the side is playing at the moment it doesn't look great. There is a real lack of confidence there.

"Again, the way you prepare, the current environment hasn't been great for successful performances on the field. If there is some uncertainty, distractions and whatever else, under pressure you're going to get found out on the weekend. Hopefully we can tidy up a little bit of that. I will know more when I really get in the guts of it."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/ivan-cleary-positive-after-individual-meetings-with-wests-tigers-big-four-20170403-gvci22.html
 
@ said:
Do you think they could buy into the vision of taking less to attract better squad players? Realistically any chance they have of attracting huge bucks seems to slip further away for each loss…...
Guess it's up to Cleary to cultivate the culture to get guys to want to play at our club...

Well they've all said it isn't about the money! Maybe that should be put to the test. Easy to say it when the money is currently on the table.
Regardless of whether we keep them all or just one of them, we need some of those hard heads to back them up.
And I believe either one of Moses or Brooks needs to move on - we need a controlling half - like Widdop. I don't know which, quite frankly. I lean towards Brooks because, as I mentioned elsewhere, (here's another laugh for you Happy), I think he can be coached to become a good halfback. Moses is a bit too much like Benji for mine. Diamonds one second, rocks the next. I'm over that type of player.
 
@ said:
I can see Isaac Moses changing tack now. He'll say "sign all 4 of my clients or you won't get any"

The risk of holding out for everything, is that you may end up with nothing. The big 4's manager is seeing their value drop after each game. Teddy and Woods can probably get what they are asking elsewhere but Mitch and Luke's stock is in deep decline.

If we start managing this how it should be managed I think their manager will cost them a small fortune. I'd be taking more money of the table the longer this goes on. If he comes back and says can you please revalue these guys I'd go back with an automatic 5% decrease. This is a ploy that we use for estimates at work. We increase by 5% each time we are asked to re estimate our costs. I'd do the same thing in reverse for these guys.
 
@ said:
@ said:
Do you think they could buy into the vision of taking less to attract better squad players? Realistically any chance they have of attracting huge bucks seems to slip further away for each loss…...
Guess it's up to Cleary to cultivate the culture to get guys to want to play at our club...

Well they've all said it isn't about the money! Maybe that should be put to the test. Easy to say it when the money is currently on the table.
Regardless of whether we keep them all or just one of them, we need some of those hard heads to back them up.
And I believe either one of Moses or Brooks needs to move on - we need a controlling half - like Widdop. I don't know which, quite frankly. I lean towards Brooks because, as I mentioned elsewhere, (here's another laugh for you Happy), I think he can be coached to become a good halfback. Moses is a bit too much like Benji for mine. Diamonds one second, rocks the next. I'm over that type of player.

Well Yeti at their age, if it's not about the money then surely it would be about playing with their best mates? The younger players these days seem to not know what is going on with things. It's been mentioned in here recently that declaring that you want to play finals football is met with not very favourable odds, and realistically it's up to the players on the park to be good enough for finals footy. Despite half the clubs making the finals every year unless it's for Melbourne there's no guarantees.
Young footy players these days appear to have the misconception that the club owes them everything before they've earned it. Plenty of good footy players around who aren't under the illusion that they are entitled to a small fortune…just my opinion of course...
 
This won't take long Cleary has put it in them already to get on board. If they don't commit and want to be here he will cut them loose. Everyone knows our offers are higher than the market especially with the reduced cap.
 
@ said:
Another positive article..
\
\
APRIL 3 2017 - 6:50PM

Ivan Cleary positive after individual meetings with Wests Tigers' 'big four'

Michael Chammas
\
\
Ivan Cleary was only an hour into his tenure at the Wests Tigers before he sat down with each member of the so called big four to gauge just how much they wanted to remain at the club.

The Tigers trumpeted a three-and-a half-year deal for Cleary on Monday afternoon, but there will be no more pivotal period during his reign than the the next month, in which he must make crucial decisions regarding the future of James Tedesco, Aaron Woods, Mitchell Moses and Luke Brooks.

Will they stay? Will they go? Does Cleary even want them around?

They are all questions without answers at the moment, but you can rest assured the new coach will want them answered in a hurry as he begins the mammoth task of resurrecting the club's fortunes.

"The club has made it perfectly clear that they want these boys to stay," Cleary said at Wests Ashfield Leagues Club on Monday afternoon.

"From my point of view, from the outside looking in, that would be a fairly normal thing to do. The reality is it doesn't matter who you are and where you fit into the roster, it has always got to be at the right value. Some figures just came out at the weekend about the cap as well so all these things have to be taken into account.

"Without going into detail with each of those guys, what we want to do is get some certainty around the roster and make sure every player - no matter how much money he gets or where he fits into the team – is committed to the future of this club."

While Cleary described his conversations with the players on Monday morning as "positive", the future of the "big four" remains in limbo.

There have been a number of issues over the past two years that has impacted on their happiness at the Tigers, something that became obvious to their new coach after their brief meeting on Monday.

"I got the impression it hasn't been easy for them," Cleary said. "Nothing more than that. It's been difficult and have been in the spotlight big time. That's the nature of being high-profile and you're unsigned – it doesn't matter who you are. That's what goes with it.
\
\
"The reality is it is what it is right now. There is only one way to stop it and that is that they either sign for the Tigers or they don't. Unfortunately the way it has all unfolded, looking from the outside in, this has been cultivated over a five- or six-week period.

"As you guys well know, all that does is get bigger and bigger and bigger, and the pressure increases. Again, one thing hopefully my appointment today leads to some certainty. The next step the more of that we can get the better. Getting players signed away and getting your roster sorted as quickly as you can, that allows more certainty."

THE PROBLEMS THAT NEED FIXING

The Wests Tigers have the worst defensive record in the competition to start the season, and there have been few signs of improvement over the opening five rounds of the season.

A soft underbelly, compounded by a relentless need to roll the dice on every tackle, has seen the Tigers plummet to the bottom of the NRL ladder.

Cleary has watched every game and has already earmarked what he believes is the Tigers' major concern.

"Probably the biggest thing I have seen is that they just have periods when they drop out of the game," Cleary said.

"There is not a lot of rhythm in how they're playing. There are good periods – they start each game well. They're probably not dealing with setbacks well. When momentum shifts, they're struggling to absorb that and turn it around.

"I am convinced each man is trying as hard as they can but sometimes it's not collective. Why that is, I don't know. But you can be sure that if environmentally there are some distractions and uncertainty, that's going to be hard to bring all that together."

WHY THE WESTS TIGERS ARE RIGHT FOR CLEARY

Cleary was always going to be the next coach to land a gig when one became available. So the question had to be asked: was this the right job or just a job?

"It's a balance," Cleary said. "It crossed my mind. You don't want to set yourself up for failure. I definitely don't think I'm doing that here. Having said that, there might be some hard days ahead.

"But in terms of balance, you just don't know when a job is going to come up either. All I can say is this one did come up and I liked what I saw. They did too luckily, and now we're here.

WHY THE TIGERS CAN STILL MAKE THE SEMIS

While Cleary admits there is a chance the club may need to go backwards to go forwards, he isn't willing to write off the club's chances of an unlikely charge to the finals.

"I absolutely haven't discounted making the semis," he said.

"What I have learnt over the years is that not many people remember the first quarter of the year by the end of the year. From an external point, if you look at the way the side is playing at the moment it doesn't look great. There is a real lack of confidence there.

"Again, the way you prepare, the current environment hasn't been great for successful performances on the field. If there is some uncertainty, distractions and whatever else, under pressure you're going to get found out on the weekend. Hopefully we can tidy up a little bit of that. I will know more when I really get in the guts of it."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/ivan-cleary-positive-after-individual-meetings-with-wests-tigers-big-four-20170403-gvci22.html

The part where he talks about may needing to go backwards to go forwards interests me. Could he be talking about trying new attacking or defensive structures or dropping player's and promoting others, that might take a few weeks to settle in
 
Stating the obvious the whole squad is off contract including our four highest profile players with no one really even giving the slightest sign they care or want to be here. Probably along with the Simona fiasco this off field drama is playing out on the field.
 
It's time for the "Big 4" to show their hand. They've said all along they wanted to see who the coach is, now they have. If they haven't signed on the dotted line with us or another club by the end of the week, I'll just assume they're full of crap and are chasing the dollar. I'm fine with them chasing money but don't feed us crap. Just say we are seeing what kind of money we can get and leave it at that.
 
@ said:
@ said:
I can see Isaac Moses changing tack now. He'll say "sign all 4 of my clients or you won't get any"

The risk of holding out for everything, is that you may end up with nothing. The big 4's manager is seeing their value drop after each game. Teddy and Woods can probably get what they are asking elsewhere but Mitch and Luke's stock is in deep decline.

I can't see him doing that at all. His job is to look after the best interests of his clients, not holding a club to ransom. if he took that tact he'll be out of a job.

That and the fact the clubs have learnt the cap for next year will be less than they thought means theyre like to have less options open to them as well
 
The lurker reporting that the Roosters are in talks with Tedesco despite Politis' stance on Isaac Moses. Apparently there's talks behind uncle Nick's back. He also reported that we would not be able to compete money wise. Interesting conclusion seeing as we have most of our cap to spend and they are loaded to the gills witt talent.
 
@ said:
The lurker reporting that the Roosters are in talks with Tedesco despite Politis' stance on Isaac Moses. Apparently there's talks behind uncle Nick's back. He also reported that we would not be able to compete money wise. Interesting conclusion seeing as we have most of our cap to spend and they are loaded to the gills witt talent.

The Salary Cap is a joke. The NRL approved over $15 million in Third Party Agreements last year. I would love to see the break up of this amount on a club by club basis. I think you would find some clubs are spending at least $1-$2 million above the cap by way of Third Party deals.

For every genuine Third Party Deal ( Billy Slater ads with PowerAde and Queensland Bananas for example) their are many very dubious ones to players with no marketability but who clubs need on their books.

I would imagine the Roosters would put Tedesco in their Salary Cap at about $500,000 and he would make the rest though the many Third Party sponsors the Roosters can put him in touch with.

The only way the NRL can stop this is by being tougher on the amount that has to be included in the contract with the NRL (eg not register a contract for Tedesco at the Roosters for anything under $900,000). Unlikely to happen as they have allowed many clubs to get away with this for years, eg Lockyer last contract at the Broncos was about $400,000 under the Salary Cap and he was making over double that when the Third Party deals were added and I am sure most of Sam Burgess current salary is by way of Third Party deals).

Yet it is clubs like Parramatta that get done for Salary Cap breaches as they use their current sponsors rather than outside money for Third Party deals.

The NRL were never be a level playing field until they get far tougher or limit Third Party Agreements (something that the Players Association would fight hard against).
 
The cap works because these guys have to be in the cap on a certain amount. The roosters can't have Tedesco on their books at $200k.

I can't see the roosters getting Tedesco.

At the same time I feel exactly like Chris. I just want this over and the way these guys have acted to me means I'm happy if they all go.
 
For me, the cap doesn't work for one simple fact and the "Big 4" are a prime example. We brought them through to the top grade. We nurtured them and took the time to develop them. They are local juniors and products of our own development system. We should be rewarded for all the work we have put in by having these players exempt from the cap because they are local juniors.
 
Imagine 12 months ago our supporters turning on Tedesco. Hell imagine it a month ago. Isaac Moses has damaged these kids reputations significantly among their own suppprter base.
 
We are always be bitching about one Agent or the other.up until now it was Ayoub who was the Anti Christ.
Now it's Moses.
They've got a job to do , and it's not for us or for the club
It's for their clients.theyll do what's needed to get the most money for them .
We can moan as much as they want, they're not going away
They've got to get every dollar for their clients as they can, As the clubs will try and get them as cheaply as they can. It just depends who blinks first.
Next year we will be probably have another one to whinge about.
After what these blokes have seen in the last couple of years they probably be wary of anything that the club says , as they know that they'll try and get out of any contract as soon as it suits them. The clubs actions may come back to haunt them.
As I've said recently , I don't care if three of them stay or not, but the club has only themselves to blame for the mess they're in
 
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