There really is a God

[Goose]

I was watching a YouTube Clip yesterday of an American Pastor telling his congregation to snap the wrist of their 4 yr old sons if it's limp and to punch them. Do I need to respect those views? Do I need to respect the views of the Hill Song church? What about Fred Nile who hosts a mass every yr the day of the Mardi Gras to pray for rain so the Mardi Gras gets called off. Are these views that should be respected?

Of course you don't need to respect them.

These are not Christian views.

You need to differentiate between man-made fallacies such as those you quoted, and the mainstream Christian values of love, tolerance and forgiveness.

You did say earlier that we have to respect the beliefs of others??

Unfortunately many believe the above to be christian views.

The values of love, tolerance and forgiveness definitely should be respected, not everyone's religious views are in line with this, which was an earlier point.

We should respect the right to have beliefs, but not all beliefs need be respected. The Westboro baptist church and ISIS are 2 religious organisations that can not have their beliefs respected.

 

[Tigerdave]

Unfortunately, heaven and earth were created BEFORE the light according to Genesis.

Umm no, they weren't.

Day 1 - God said let there be light.

http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm

The article was written by David Wolper. A TV producer who was famous for his National Geographic productions.

But nevertheless, the writers of the Bible somehow figured out that creation occurred first with **the universe, then the Earth, then light, then water,** then land rising out of the water to separate land and sea, all in the proper order according to contemporary science.

Then, most amazingly of all, these ancient Hebrew scholars and Old Testament writers figured out, **in accordance with modern science, that the origins of life started in the water.** Scientific information on the subject was not developed until over 3500 years later.

and he says it right there, the light was created after heaven and earth

and if you only quote half the verse, like this guy did, then the assumption could be made that they knew what they were talking about back then, but this is the whole verse.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky."

Genesis 2 has things a little different…...........man was formed from the dust on the ground. Then trees and plants followed and then animals were created from the ground. Which does not follow current scientific thought.

 

[tigerbalm]

Hmmm

Do Christians really think that the initial singularity theory is similar to " let there be light"?? Please tell me you can see the difference?

That's like a child explaining how a car works ( put petrol in and go vroooom" and an engineer explaining internal combustion. The child is right. I guess. In a very basic, fundamental, non educated way.

I think if we had astrophysicist 2000 years ago, the bible would read very, very different.

Although they probably would of been killed as wizards. Funny how things change, the church trying to align itself with science is a sign of an organization that is scared and out of ideas.

It may not be in our lifetime but society will soon realize that organized religion is for…as a great man once said...people who are afraid of the dark.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

The Bible is not a scientific text book, and was never intended to be so.

What would be the purpose of explaining astrophysics to a bunch of desert dwelling Jews who could neither read nor write, and did not even know what a magnifying glass was? Its much easier to speak to the intended audience in simple language, giving simple examples, thus allowing a simple understanding.

If you're not sure what the word 'context' means, look it up in the dictionary and that will help you out next time you want to discuss the Bible.

Trust me, I want to keep religion an science as far apart as possible, unfortunately you posted an article ( from huff post lolololol) trying to align current thinking on the origin of the universe to some archaic ramblings that have literally and metaphorically no similarities at all.

Still, kudos for sticking up for your dying cult. It shows character.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[Spartan117]

I find it intersing that when the discussion of a debate of Diaty vs Not is always centered around the Bible.

I have also noted in this world a distinct anti God (Yahwa) and Anti Jesus sentiment that is growing.

The new religion seems to be tolerance of all things however disgusting or bankrupt they may be these days.

I wonder if it is simply an excuse to negate the notion that we are accountable to someone some where at some point in our personal existences.

 

[Spartan117]

I will share my personal beliefs, I dont force them on anyone else and I respect others.

I have close friends who are Sunni Muslim, Homosexual and atheist and polythieistic.

I Believe that the the Bible is the Word of the only true living God. A God that wants a relationship with me more that my shallow obedience to endless rules.

It is written over a period of 1600 years by Kings, Tax collectors,, fishermen, tentmakers, farmers. It is staggering to me that a book spanning so much time is coherent, historically accurate and has the foundation of Human Origins, Time, a round world, the reason for fossils and the disappearance of dinosaurs to name just a few.

Its central message is our redemption from the consequence of the free choice of our common ancestors through a loving and free gift.
\
\
Here's a pragmatic thought

If I have lived my life and there is no God, then thats Ok I may have missed out on a few things that are temporarily satisfying….If I have lived my life and rejected God and his Son and he exists....

I am enjoying most of the debate here, Please continue to be respectful.

 

[happy_tiger]

I will share my personal beliefs, I dont force them on anyone else and I respect others.

I have close friends who are Sunni Muslim, Homosexual and atheist and polythieistic.

I Believe that the the Bible is the Word of the only true living God. A God that wants a relationship with me more that my shallow obedience to endless rules.

It is written over a period of 1600 years by Kings, Tax collectors,, fishermen, tentmakers, farmers. It is staggering to me that a book spanning so much time is coherent, historically accurate and has the foundation of Human Origins, Time, a round world, the reason for fossils and the disappearance of dinosaurs to name just a few.

Its central message is our redemption from the consequence of the free choice of our common ancestors through a loving and free gift.
\
\
Here's a pragmatic thought

If I have lived my life and there is no God, then thats Ok I may have missed out on a few things that are temporarily satisfying….If I have lived my life and rejected God and his Son and he exists....

I am enjoying most of the debate here, Please continue to be respectful.

Spartan , if there is a classier person on this Forum I haven't read his or her posts

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

My biggest problem is with organised religion, rather than belief in a deity itself.

Even as a young fella coming up through the Church, I always found it strange as to why people congregate together to pray to a god? I always had the notion that god would always liaise directly with me, not through a mass gathering with a middle man on a pulpit.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I was watching a YouTube Clip yesterday of an American Pastor telling his congregation to snap the wrist of their 4 yr old sons if it's limp and to punch them. Do I need to respect those views? Do I need to respect the views of the Hill Song church? What about Fred Nile who hosts a mass every yr the day of the Mardi Gras to pray for rain so the Mardi Gras gets called off. Are these views that should be respected?

Of course you don't need to respect them.

These are not Christian views.

You need to differentiate between man-made fallacies such as those you quoted, and the mainstream Christian values of love, tolerance and forgiveness.

You did say earlier that we have to respect the beliefs of others??

Unfortunately many believe the above to be christian views.

**The values of love, tolerance and forgiveness** definitely should be respected, not everyone's religious views are in line with this, which was an earlier point.

We should respect the right to have beliefs, but not all beliefs need be respected. The Westboro baptist church and ISIS are 2 religious organisations that can not have their beliefs respected.

Good point. These values and religion are not mutually exclusive.

You only have to be a decent human being to espouse those virtues.

 

[Mccarry]

I find it intersing that when the discussion of a debate of Diaty vs Not is always centered around the Bible.

I have also noted in this world a distinct anti God (Yahwa) and Anti Jesus sentiment that is growing.

The new religion seems to be tolerance of all things however disgusting or bankrupt they may be these days.

I wonder if it is simply an excuse to negate the notion that we are accountable to someone some where at some point in our personal existences.

Yes we now value tolerance over what is good.

Just last week a sex change was celebrated on Australian national TV (the panel or whatever it's called) as courageous… Seriously....?

Without God the says who test applies. Who says what is right? Without God our society is celebrating a sex change. Wow, when did things get so messed up.... Oh when we decided we were the best equiped to make the rules.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[Mccarry]

I will share my personal beliefs, I dont force them on anyone else and I respect others.

I have close friends who are Sunni Muslim, Homosexual and atheist and polythieistic.

I Believe that the the Bible is the Word of the only true living God. A God that wants a relationship with me more that my shallow obedience to endless rules.

It is written over a period of 1600 years by Kings, Tax collectors,, fishermen, tentmakers, farmers. It is staggering to me that a book spanning so much time is coherent, historically accurate and has the foundation of Human Origins, Time, a round world, the reason for fossils and the disappearance of dinosaurs to name just a few.

Its central message is our redemption from the consequence of the free choice of our common ancestors through a loving and free gift.
\
\
Here's a pragmatic thought

If I have lived my life and there is no God, then thats Ok I may have missed out on a few things that are temporarily satisfying….If I have lived my life and rejected God and his Son and he exists....

I am enjoying most of the debate here, Please continue to be respectful.

I value how articulate you have been above. Thanks for sharing. I too am enjoying the conversation.

There are some well researched people on both sides on here. I genuinely enjoy this forum. It's the happiest thing about being a tigers fan most of the time

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[Tigersman]

You people are your own cult "The Anti Religion" Cult. Would you rather believe that when we die we rot in a coffin for eternity or that we get sent to heaven… No one wants to die but I'd rather die and go to the next place than rot in a coffin...

_Posted using RoarFEED Android 1.2.3_

 

[Mccarry]

I was watching a YouTube Clip yesterday of an American Pastor telling his congregation to snap the wrist of their 4 yr old sons if it's limp and to punch them. Do I need to respect those views? Do I need to respect the views of the Hill Song church? What about Fred Nile who hosts a mass every yr the day of the Mardi Gras to pray for rain so the Mardi Gras gets called off. Are these views that should be respected?

Of course you don't need to respect them.

These are not Christian views.

You need to differentiate between man-made fallacies such as those you quoted, and the mainstream Christian values of love, tolerance and forgiveness.

You did say earlier that we have to respect the beliefs of others??

Unfortunately many believe the above to be christian views.

**The values of love, tolerance and forgiveness** definitely should be respected, not everyone's religious views are in line with this, which was an earlier point.

We should respect the right to have beliefs, but not all beliefs need be respected. The Westboro baptist church and ISIS are 2 religious organisations that can not have their beliefs respected.

Good point. These values and religion are not mutually exclusive.

You only have to be a decent human being to espouse those virtues.

Out of interest, for those that don't believe in God how do you reconcile the concept of love?

Where does it fit within your beliefs? Why do we love?

How about doing right by others? Eg why not just take a stranger (from another society) things if you can get away with it? Why send money to starving African kids?

If there are no true consequences why play ball with societies values? Why not do what you please?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[happy_tiger]

My biggest problem is with organised religion, rather than belief in a deity itself.

Even as a young fella coming up through the Church, I always found it strange as to why people congregate together to pray to a god? I always had the notion that god would always liaise directly with me, not through a mass gathering with a middle man on a pulpit.

CB Everyone's relationship with God is different , even from within the same family

I always though that everyone was celebrating their love of God together , no matter how different we were or our beliefs outside the Church are

But what you said about someone being a good person I think carries a lot of weight , you can live your life with Christian ideals and yet be the devoid of God in your life

My God respects that I believe and would still nurture that

Without being disrespectful to some , some Christians know little about being true Christian and its something I admit I have to be careful of from time to time

 

[tigerbalm]

Of course you don't need to respect them.

These are not Christian views.

You need to differentiate between man-made fallacies such as those you quoted, and the mainstream Christian values of love, tolerance and forgiveness.

You did say earlier that we have to respect the beliefs of others??

Unfortunately many believe the above to be christian views.

**The values of love, tolerance and forgiveness** definitely should be respected, not everyone's religious views are in line with this, which was an earlier point.

We should respect the right to have beliefs, but not all beliefs need be respected. The Westboro baptist church and ISIS are 2 religious organisations that can not have their beliefs respected.

Good point. These values and religion are not mutually exclusive.

You only have to be a decent human being to espouse those virtues.

Out of interest, for those that don't believe in God how do you reconcile the concept of love?

Where does it fit within your beliefs? Why do we love?

How about doing right by others? Eg why not just take a stranger (from another society) things if you can get away with it? Why send money to starving African kids?

If there are no true consequences why play ball with societies values? Why not do what you please?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

I think what I'm getting from your post is your asking if you don't believe in a God, why don't we just go rape and steal??

Plenty of atheist do, plenty of folk that believe in a higher power do aswell. Sometimes in the name of the higher power.

I'm not knowledgable in human behavior and the development of it. I do remember reading something about a certain stage of a young child's life at which right/wrong becomes a clear distinction. Well before Jesus is relevant to them.

We don't need organized…any religion or religious consequences to know its wrong to hurt our fellow man.

Much the same, if tomorrow it was proven that God does not exist, I would not expect to see roaming gangs of Christians raping and stealing. A good person is a good person regardless of faith.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Out of interest, for those that don't believe in God how do you reconcile the concept of love?

Where does it fit within your beliefs? Why do we love?

How about doing right by others? Eg why not just take a stranger (from another society) things if you can get away with it? Why send money to starving African kids?

If there are no true consequences why play ball with societies values? Why not do what you please?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

I'm a existential nihilist. I believe we're here by chemical chance, and while our lives are what we want to make of them, we serve no real inherent purpose or value other than what we place on it ourselves and as such it becomes a hedonistic experience.

I donate money to medical research and donate furniture and clothing for the needy because I want to see people not going without. I love because by evolutionary design we are social creatures and it is how we are programmed.

I do right by other people because it is the way I expect to be treated. Do people seriously think that the concepts of love, tolerance and charity don't predate religion? Our ability to critically think evolved our conscience and the ability to weigh the consequences of our actions.

The laws that govern society are secular. Plenty of people carry out heinous actions in the name of god that are outside the scope of the norms of society, seems like they do as they please?

_Posted using RoarFEED Android 1.2.3_

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I find it intersing that when the discussion of a debate of Diaty vs Not is always centered around the Bible.

I have also noted in this world a distinct anti God (Yahwa) and Anti Jesus sentiment that is growing.

The new religion seems to be tolerance of all things however disgusting or bankrupt they may be these days.

I wonder if it is simply an excuse to negate the notion that we are accountable to someone some where at some point in our personal existences.

Yes we now value tolerance over what is good.

Just last week a sex change was celebrated on Australian national TV (the panel or whatever it's called) as courageous… Seriously....?

Without God the says who test applies. Who says what is right? Without God our society is celebrating a sex change. Wow, when did things get so messed up.... Oh when we decided we were the best equiped to make the rules.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

Just quickly, what does a choice someone makes who has no bearing on your life have to do with you? How does it impair or retard your quality of life? Much like the gay marriage debate. As Joe Rogan says: don't like the concept of gay marriage, then don't get gay married.

_Posted using RoarFEED Android 1.2.3_

 

[GNR4LIFE]

I find it intersing that when the discussion of a debate of Diaty vs Not is always centered around the Bible.

I have also noted in this world a distinct anti God (Yahwa) and Anti Jesus sentiment that is growing.

The new religion seems to be tolerance of all things however disgusting or bankrupt they may be these days.

I wonder if it is simply an excuse to negate the notion that we are accountable to someone some where at some point in our personal existences.

Yes we now value tolerance over what is good.

Just last week a sex change was celebrated on Australian national TV (the panel or whatever it's called) as courageous… Seriously....?

Without God the says who test applies. Who says what is right? Without God our society is celebrating a sex change. Wow, when did things get so messed up.... Oh when we decided we were the best equiped to make the rules.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

Scary to think this kind of thought process still exists in the 21st century.

I was raised and taught what was right and wrong, and never once did anyone tell me that it was because of what was stated in the bible. I don't embrace any God yet try to be a good person every day and if i achieve that goal God has nothing to do with it. I understand Atheists can come off smug and arrogant sometimes, but its examples like this that prove that religious people return that smugness and arrogance in kind to think that you have a monopoly on morals.

And speaking of how children are raised, no child should ever be told that there is a heaven and a hell and that there is a God. Its called brainwashing and will only breed idiots. If a child asks about religion, no matter what your beliefs, its wrong to try and brainwash them to your way of thinking. Give the arguments for both sides and let them go away and decide for themselves.

 

[happy_tiger]

GNR My kids will be smart enough either way to make that call when they are old enough

Same way that if my son was to turn his back on rugby league or the WT's I wouldn't be concerned

Hopefully we have brought our children up with the right ideals that even if they choose to follow Christian beliefs or not they are good citizens and will live with a good and strong heart for their fellow humanity

 

[Tigerdave]

I find it intersing that when the discussion of a debate of Diaty vs Not is always centered around the Bible.

I have also noted in this world a distinct anti God (Yahwa) and Anti Jesus sentiment that is growing.

The new religion seems to be tolerance of all things however disgusting or bankrupt they may be these days.

I wonder if it is simply an excuse to negate the notion that we are accountable to someone some where at some point in our personal existences.

We are accountable to ourselves and others.

In so far as the tolerance of all things disgusting, the Catholic Church has been doing a bang up job of tolerating disgusting and bankrupt things, shall we mention what is happening with Islamic extremists or Christians in the Central African Repubilic? I don't see how religion is exempt.

 

[Tigerdave]

Here's a pragmatic thought

If I have lived my life and there is no God, then thats Ok I may have missed out on a few things that are temporarily satisfying….If I have lived my life and rejected God and his Son and he exists....

Sounds like Pascal's Wager to me