Thread closed?

[Yossarian]

I'm curious, what is the opinion of religious folk who go door knocking, and try to convert other people to their faith?

I dunno. I mean I appreciate their sincerity and many of them I'm sure believe doing so is a necessary and obvious part of their faith. At a personal level I don't like it but as long as they jog on when I politely decline, all good so long as it's an infrequent event - no problem.

 

[Yossarian]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I can feel this thread will be closed soon lol


I’m praying that that is the case

But who to?

 

[fair dinkum]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I know right, all that hate, slavery, murdering and inequality that's condoned in the bible, its almost like my tongue in cheek post is on the same level, how very intolerant of me. I should be supportive of slavery at least, be a good Christian if i was. If one wants to talk of intolerance one only has to read the bible. It's how a huge number of people become atheist when they realise it condones the most immoral and intolerant things possible. Sorry if i triggered a nerve I just find myself much more moral and tolerant than a morally bankrupt deity.



The loving caring moral words from your God -

**EXODUS 21** “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

 

[NT_Tiger]

@fair-dinkum
Well that sounds reasonable.

 

[innsaneink]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I can feel this thread will be closed soon lol


I’m praying that that is the case

But who to?

I pray to MY god

 

[cochise]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I can feel this thread will be closed soon lol


I’m praying that that is the case

But who to?

I pray to MY god

I am MY god!

 

[innsaneink]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I can feel this thread will be closed soon lol


I’m praying that that is the case

But who to?

I pray to MY god

I am MY god!

Each to their own

 

[Madge]

@fair-dinkum This is from the Old Testament, where slavery existed before the time of Israel or Moses, you might think the bible is responsible or supports slavery but rather it is responsible for the elimination of slavery, you have taken it out of context. The Christian religion is very heavy on symbolism, you have taken it at face value and not understood the underlying meaning. Apologies if that came across as rude.

 

[fair dinkum]

@fair-dinkum This is from the Old Testament, where slavery existed before the time of Israel or Moses, you might think the bible is responsible or supports slavery but rather it is responsible for the elimination of slavery, you have taken it out of context. The Christian religion is very heavy on symbolism, you have taken it at face value and not understood the underlying meaning. Apologies if that came across as rude.

Do you believe in the 10 commandments?

 

[Madge]

@fair-dinkum Yes I do.

 

[fair dinkum]

@fair-dinkum Yes I do.

Why, They are in the old testament.

I guess cherry picking is fine if it makes you feel better.

 

[Madge]

@fair-dinkum I didn’t say I don’t believe in the Old Testament, I said you’ve taken the passage and it’s meaning out of context.

 

[fair dinkum]

@fair-dinkum I didn’t say I don’t believe in the Old Testament, I said you’ve taken the passage and it’s meaning out of context.

Nothing has been taken out of context. It explicitly condones slavery and provides a very very specific set of rules for slavery, no matter how much you try to sugar coat it, or want to believe it isnt true, its there for all to see. You are much more moral than the god of the bible and you have to rationalise why you believe in such a blood lust monster. So you are essentially arguing that slavery is acceptable in some circumstances, just think about that for a second. Your God thought slavery was ok. If there were problems that slavery could address, those problems almost certainly have a better solution available - particularly for an omnipotent God.

Apologists argue that it was "a different culture and a different time". This implicitly accepts moral relativism, which is contrary to Biblical morality. It has never been ok for one human to own another human. The god of the bible didnt have a problem with that.

Slavery was often imposed on other cultures by Christian colonialists. The Atlantic slave trade was created and operated by Christians, so abolishing it was really the least they could do. Christian slave owners often used the Bible to defend slave ownership. At best, one could say that these cultures belatedly realised the evil of slavery only after they themselves had instituted it and caused it to flourish for hundreds of years, and finally corrected their own mistake. - *religions wiki*

 

[Madge]

@fair-dinkum lol the you are taking the word ‘slave’ too literally. I’d suggest you’d read some contemplations and research so you can actually understand what is being implied rather than just assuming and taking things at face value.

 

[cktiger]

Its because you cant argue/debate/discus religion on a forum like this. One side is rational, logical and use common sense, the other side is religious.

Because of intolerant, obnoxious posters like this one.
But don't tell him HE'S the intolerant one !!!!!

I know right, all that hate, slavery, murdering and inequality that's condoned in the bible, its almost like my tongue in cheek post is on the same level, how very intolerant of me. I should be supportive of slavery at least, be a good Christian if i was. If one wants to talk of intolerance one only has to read the bible. It's how a huge number of people become atheist when they realise it condones the most immoral and intolerant things possible. Sorry if i triggered a nerve I just find myself much more moral and tolerant than a morally bankrupt deity.



The loving caring moral words from your God -

**EXODUS 21** “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

You are obviously comparing slavery of that day by the Hebrews to what came later (or may have occurred elsewhere)
The Hebrews treated their slaves as servants ...

 

[Madge]

@cktiger Also, it is the free will of the servant to want to serve their master (God), rather than God enforcing them to slavery. Christianity is very heavy on free will.

 

[Tiger_Steve]

I am an atheist now but grew up a catholic and in my 20’s was very involved in Pentecostal churches.
Just a point on the above quotes from Exodus. Christians believe in New Testament teaching which says Jesus died to free us from our sins and the rules and regulations of the past. That’s a key difference between Christianity and Judaism and Islam for that matter. Therefore quoting biblical texts from Old Testament doesn’t really prove anything.
As I said, I have seen the light and think the whole thing is hogwash but I’m just pointing out how christians are taught to interpret the bible. Here endeth the lesson 🙏

 

[Russell]

@fair-dinkum lol the you are taking the word ‘slave’ too literally. I’d suggest you’d read some contemplations and research so you can actually understand what is being implied rather than just assuming and taking things at face value.

Man that comes across as codesedning and a common cop out by some folk. Like you have some special insight. News flash, you don’t.

So, by your logic, fairdinkums interpretation is incorrect as it doesn’t fit your ideals and ultimately if you did take it as literal it’s quite the viscous read and really has no place in a enlightenment society. The easy answer is to say the stories are not literal and more a code to live your life by. Cop out.

So! Let’s take your sarcastic comments, it’s not literal. Read some “contemplations”. Says who? Is there a preface in front that warns the reader to take the stories as life lessons? Which parts? What’s a real story and what’s a life lesson? And what book? And which version? I mean the NeW testament is written ( or colllected) 400 odd years after the event. Are the contemplations based on events that we’re written on interpretations of events that happened 400 years previously? I guess that what blind faith is. I have another term but I might get a stint in the banned box.

I don't want to get into an argument - is it true or is it not but just want to point out that your assumption that part of the New Testament was written some 400 years after the event is way off the mark.

The Gospel of Mark dates from AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110. Acts (of the Apostles is thought to have been written by Luke at the earliest in AD 62 and the latest AD 160. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was written approx. AD 53–57. etc. etc.

So a lot earlier than 400 years after the event.

 

[Sart0ri]

Some people believe that Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea gave the New Testament an edit around AD325. This was done to stop arguments and get Christianity back to one religion so the Romans could control people. It is hard to tell how much truth there is to this but it may have been changed.

The later Christian Churches would have good reason to remove any evidence if they had found any in the 1500 years since.

Edit: It's in Wikipedia, so it must be true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity

 

[jirskyr]

@jirskyr
Yes, my experience mirrors yours. I was indoctrinated into catholicism in a devout family environment. At the age of seven, as an altar boy, I knew the mass in latin. Etc etc.
Then around the age of 15 I started thinking for myself.
In my 26 years of working with the Aboriginal people of the Western Arnhem area I gained an awareness of a spirituality within some members of the community that I couldn't explain or understand. But with those people it had a day to day relevance and could not be dismissed.
It had nothing at all to do with any western concept of god or religion.

What I always find thought-provoking is that I have never told my kids when they were little about god or Jesus, and they therefore had no idea about it until later. Surely, if religion was that important, god himself would reveal to kids and not rely on the diligence of parents to impart the required knowledge.

So I said I'd let my kids decide if they wanted to be religious, once they were old enough to make such decisions. Because talking to kids about religion, as if it was proven fact rather than belief, is indoctrination.

I don't harbour any ill-will against Catholicism and I wasn't treated badly in any way; perhaps a bit over-bearing and shame-inducing a theology, but fundamentally I could see the positive messages.

But I just didn't want to go to church, simple as that. When I stopped, I realise I didn't miss it one bit, nor the dogma nor the services nor the community. It wasn't required in my life and nothing appeared to happen after disengaging from the church.