Two myths the club seems happy to perpetuate...

[earl]

We are now in a process of clearing the floor to start again,this time with good financial backing,no more over priced purchases and a squad very young and learning

I don't blame the coach. I also think we are on the right path. It's just depressing when we continually lose.

The Tigers are the only team that I support and it's a long term support. I sometimes watch some MMA and maybe some tennis. I sometimes watch other games of rugby league but I'm a Tigers supporter.

I can see us turning this around completely but it's going to take really good recruitment and retention and a chunk of time. I'm not upset by the guys we've missed signings. I think basically all big games are going to be let downs. The only guy I've thought could turn us around was Latrell.

I don't see the point in sacking the coach.

 

[innsaneink]

Madge seems like a better GM than coach tbh. I like what he's doing with the roster and generally but the doco is not good lol.

As a Tigers fan, I am really embarrassed by it. Nothing has ever made us look more mediocre. If I was a player, I wouldn't want to go to the Tigers after watching it.

Yeah I can't see it helping recruitment at all... The opposite in fact

 

[GCfan]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

Players though usually have a reason for not performing on the field AND it is the coach's job to get them into shape..

Understand your point of view but based on that logic any team that fails to make the top 8 should sack the coach as it’s the coaches job to fix performance. I think there’s more to it than just the coach and the coaches methods

No. Any team that doesn't even TRY to make the top 8 should look at itself and critically examine what went wrong, and where necessary, make the adjustment(s)...

I’m sure the Tigers power brokers will take your suggestions under advisement. Let’s see what 2022 brings, perhaps you’ll get your wish

 

[Needaname]

We have an identity. We are a soft football team.

The most disgusting thing about this season is the lack of effort;. I could cop losses if I think that they players are playing up to their best. They are not.

There are a lot of lazy players out there simply going through the motions. I will single out Joe O.

At his best he is a destructive forward, but appears to have been going through the motions since origin. Mikaele is another. Will hit the ball up hard when he is on. Concentration levels are terrible & does not like making effort in defence.

Willing to accept egg on my face here.
I can’t remember the specifics of how it went down but the Josh A antics and replacing him with Joe in hindsight was a backwards move.
In reality we should of been able to keep Matterson and him in a happy state.
Both replacements haven’t ended up worst off.
Was it really their managers putting pressure on the club and if Matterson could of been given an extra 50 k for the next few contract years given he was our most influential player in 2019 and subsequently Aloia in 2020 would that of been such a bad thing?

 

[Harvey]

Need to find a new sponsor so we can lose the hack of a chairman we have

 

[avocadoontoast]

Need to find a new sponsor so we can lose the hack of a chairman we have

Bang on. That was a terrible decision to make him chair.

 

[Tiger_heart]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

Players though usually have a reason for not performing on the field AND it is the coach's job to get them into shape..

Understand your point of view but based on that logic any team that fails to make the top 8 should sack the coach as it’s the coaches job to fix performance. I think there’s more to it than just the coach and the coaches methods

No. Any team that doesn't even TRY to make the top 8 should look at itself and critically examine what went wrong, and where necessary, make the adjustment(s)...

I’m sure the Tigers power brokers will take your suggestions under advisement. Let’s see what 2022 brings, perhaps you’ll get your wish

Let's hope...10-15 years too late, but I guess hope is the last thing to die. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[GCfan]

I think the biggest myth is the strength of the squad. It’s a bottom 2 roster slightly out playing it’s potential to be brutally honest. I know no one wants to accept that but the most important part of clubs are their heads of football and recruitment.

I agree to an extent, however I cant believe they are all useless. Their skill set development is not showing on the field when it should. Very few of the squad has shown RL basics consistently- yet that should be something the coaching and fitness staff have put in place and be at an acceptable stnard by thsi time of seasno. OK, give a rookie a game or two to get over nerves and feeling his way but after a couple of games they should eb able to consistently catch a ball, pass well, run and defend well, kick chase, come up in defence and defend as a team etc This lot have shown little to no development and we are almost at season end. That is coaching fault,

I’m not so sure it’s coaching fault. Most of our errors are basic and unforced. Dropping the ball or not playing it correctly or throwing a forward pass is not coached at NRL level
FFS where should it be then? If your players are making these basic errors do you just let it go and keep picking them or do you COACH them out of it or drop them until they learn to do better ,,,, you know ,, like actually coaching the players!!

It’s the players. Coaches don’t ask players to make the errors they’re making or the non existent line speed.

Players though usually have a reason for not performing on the field AND it is the coach's job to get them into shape..

Understand your point of view but based on that logic any team that fails to make the top 8 should sack the coach as it’s the coaches job to fix performance. I think there’s more to it than just the coach and the coaches methods

No. Any team that doesn't even TRY to make the top 8 should look at itself and critically examine what went wrong, and where necessary, make the adjustment(s)...

I’m sure the Tigers power brokers will take your suggestions under advisement. Let’s see what 2022 brings, perhaps you’ll get your wish

Let's hope...10-15 years too late, but I guess hope is the last thing to die. Thanks for the discussion.

?

 

[mccarry2]

Umm @mccarry2, i think you mean principle? As a former principal and long suffering WT member, I can assure you it's not my fault.

So true. My spelling is atrocious.

It took me three tries to get spell checker to suggest that word.

 

[mccarry2]

Umm @mccarry2, i think you mean principle? As a former principal and long suffering WT member, I can assure you it's not my fault.

So true. My spelling is atrocious.

It took me three tries to get spell checker to suggest that word.

Also, @Tiger-Tragic thank you for all those things you did to help Aussie kids that no-one ever noticed or said thank you for. Being a principal is an incredible achievement and a role that when done well changes lives.

 

[TigerNeddyK]

Just over three years ago I was so proud of our first few games of the season under Ivan. I remember our defensive line punishing runners. I remember the scramble. I remember the intensity. I felt proud to be part of Wests Tigers.

That year the players hadn’t changed. For some reason they just performed at a higher level.

Over the past year I watched a team leader change in one of my poorer performing businesses. Same team members (players) new leader (coach).

We put an exceptional leader in and the team on average are:
1. more engaged in their work (enabler)
2. growing in skill (enabler)
3. Putting in more discretionary effort (enabler)
4. Getting better results (outcome)

This team now looks like that Tigers team smashing runners, over the moon when something good happens. You can feel it when you interact with them.

Perhaps it’s confidence, perhaps it’s their relationship as a group, perhaps mindset. Either way the stronger leader just gets more from the same people.

When performance is sub standard the first thing I look at is the leader. Time and time again I have seen no greater correlation to performance than the talent of the people leader.

To add weight to this applying to Wests Tigers, I have seen it with my teams in Australia, Japan and China. I have seen it in Finance teams, Sales teams, Service teams and Marketing teams.

Regardless of culture or nature of roles, great leaders get results.

PRINCIPAL 1
STRONGER LEADER, same people = stronger performance.

Principal 1 has maximum impact when the underlying talent of the team is high.

In the recent example the underlying talent in the team was already good. The new leader has a lot to work with.

PRINCIPAL 2 Great Leaders ALWAYS get some overall improvement from a group of people.

When a new leader is applied to an underperforming team and performance doesn’t improve within a few years (2 yrs MAX) the truth is the leader needs to change again. Their role is to get more from people, not just exceptionally talented people.

This is even more obvious when they hire new people and most of these new team members don’t improve overall performance.

Conclusion 1.
If Madge could lead this group to higher performance we would have seen it by now. There would also be more evidence of player growth. Stefano is not the example, he grew when he experienced a different group of leaders (player leaders and coaches).

Precisely, Madge has taken the team backwards! They have devolved under him. I also used to be a Pascoe believer but after seeing the documentary and his cat salesman trait of colouring over deficiency and talking up a broken team with “unwarranted positivity and just basically happily flogging a dead horse I
Just fringe st it. They are deluded and need a full new broom sweep out and new start. Please give Flanagan a go, the man is a Rugby Lesgue intellect and a winner!

 

[TigerNeddyK]

Just a few comments on a couple of things that have
Until we stop making excuses, we won't get out of this rut we are in. It is 'concerning' when management keeps mumbling reasons why we are not winning games...and why the coach can stay...rather than aggressively demanding success and making sure people are accountable.

Accountability is a myth in the NRL.
It starts and ends with the coach. Players rarely get dropped and if some do in an attempt to look like there’s accountability they quickly return because there’s never adequate depth. The reality is, if you’ve got an average squad like ours, dogs etc, to make players accountable you’d have to almost drop the entire squad-and for a decent amount of time. No clubs going to do that as firstly, you can’t play that many reserve graders at the same time in first grade and secondly, you saw what happens when you have too many reserve graders in a first grade team.

So, let's leave LL out there for 80 mins even though he is absolutely out on his feet after 30?

Let's not drop Nofa...despite him having years and years to show improved D, but still making the exact same errors?

Let's leave Brooksy to badly run the team each week?

Bennet left out Origin players this year and played state cup players...so that the senior players knew they were on notice. He dropped Sua and Mansour and picked kids. He made them accountable.

Some great points like to also add why select Walters yesterday in a crunch game when he just looked out of his depth.

Nofo when tries were scored against him looked inside you could tell he was looking at LL but he also has to take some ownership for his D. I don't see teams targeting KM???

Brooks missing again proves that needs a fresh start somewhere else.

Madge basically delusional if he thinks we can still make the 8 we blew that this season when we lost to the Cowboys at home in Tommy Rad tribute and then beaten by the Warriors.
As fans we have been at the Club longer and we are not stupid so why treat us that way?

We cannot attract any big signing to the Club until we change the management that starts with the laid back CEO and the coach, lets hope for some off season board direction.

Picking Walters and Chee ksm and Mbye in big games at this stage of the year when we have junior players that are our future loaded with talent keen AF to play did my head in … does Madge think at all? His selections are terrible, even his comments during the game are so boring , predictable and lacking insight and courage… he lacks innovation and has no ideas and his winning percentage since 2014 is a stark indication of this!

 

[TigerNeddyK]

Just a few comments on a couple of things that have
Until we stop making excuses, we won't get out of this rut we are in. It is 'concerning' when management keeps mumbling reasons why we are not winning games...and why the coach can stay...rather than aggressively demanding success and making sure people are accountable.

Accountability is a myth in the NRL.
It starts and ends with the coach. Players rarely get dropped and if some do in an attempt to look like there’s accountability they quickly return because there’s never adequate depth. The reality is, if you’ve got an average squad like ours, dogs etc, to make players accountable you’d have to almost drop the entire squad-and for a decent amount of time. No clubs going to do that as firstly, you can’t play that many reserve graders at the same time in first grade and secondly, you saw what happens when you have too many reserve graders in a first grade team.

So, let's leave LL out there for 80 mins even though he is absolutely out on his feet after 30?

Let's not drop Nofa...despite him having years and years to show improved D, but still making the exact same errors?

Let's leave Brooksy to badly run the team each week?

Bennet left out Origin players this year and played state cup players...so that the senior players knew they were on notice. He dropped Sua and Mansour and picked kids. He made them accountable.

Some great points like to also add why select Walters yesterday in a crunch game when he just looked out of his depth.

Nofo when tries were scored against him looked inside you could tell he was looking at LL but he also has to take some ownership for his D. I don't see teams targeting KM???

Brooks missing again proves that needs a fresh start somewhere else.

Madge basically delusional if he thinks we can still make the 8 we blew that this season when we lost to the Cowboys at home in Tommy Rad tribute and then beaten by the Warriors.
As fans we have been at the Club longer and we are not stupid so why treat us that way?

We cannot attract any big signing to the Club until we change the management that starts with the laid back CEO and the coach, lets hope for some off season board direction.

Picking Walters and Chee ksm and Mbye in big games at this stage of the year when we have junior players that are our future loaded with talent keen AF to play did my head in … does Madge think at all? His selections are terrible, even his comments during the game are so boring , predictable and lacking insight and courage… he lacks innovation and has no ideas and his winning percentage since 2014 is a stark indication of this!

 

[TheDaBoss]

Question

What is the BEST possiblr spot we could finish if we win the next 2...

 

[Red Rugby]

Just over three years ago I was so proud of our first few games of the season under Ivan. I remember our defensive line punishing runners. I remember the scramble. I remember the intensity. I felt proud to be part of Wests Tigers.

That year the players hadn’t changed. For some reason they just performed at a higher level.

Over the past year I watched a team leader change in one of my poorer performing businesses. Same team members (players) new leader (coach).

We put an exceptional leader in and the team on average are:
1. more engaged in their work (enabler)
2. growing in skill (enabler)
3. Putting in more discretionary effort (enabler)
4. Getting better results (outcome)

This team now looks like that Tigers team smashing runners, over the moon when something good happens. You can feel it when you interact with them.

Perhaps it’s confidence, perhaps it’s their relationship as a group, perhaps mindset. Either way the stronger leader just gets more from the same people.

When performance is sub standard the first thing I look at is the leader. Time and time again I have seen no greater correlation to performance than the talent of the people leader.

To add weight to this applying to Wests Tigers, I have seen it with my teams in Australia, Japan and China. I have seen it in Finance teams, Sales teams, Service teams and Marketing teams.

Regardless of culture or nature of roles, great leaders get results.

PRINCIPAL 1
STRONGER LEADER, same people = stronger performance.

Principal 1 has maximum impact when the underlying talent of the team is high.

In the recent example the underlying talent in the team was already good. The new leader has a lot to work with.

PRINCIPAL 2 Great Leaders ALWAYS get some overall improvement from a group of people.

When a new leader is applied to an underperforming team and performance doesn’t improve within a few years (2 yrs MAX) the truth is the leader needs to change again. Their role is to get more from people, not just exceptionally talented people.

This is even more obvious when they hire new people and most of these new team members don’t improve overall performance.

Conclusion 1.
If Madge could lead this group to higher performance we would have seen it by now. There would also be more evidence of player growth. Stefano is not the example, he grew when he experienced a different group of leaders (player leaders and coaches).

Absolutely agree.. Here's the rub. Ivan Cleary had the team albeit a different group of players firing initially in 2018 and then they fell off a cliff half way through the season and DIDN'T make the semis (having brought in reinforcements - Moses Mbye and Robbie Farah halfway through the season). Ivan then heads off to Penrith with an FU to the Tigers.

Ivan then has an ordinary season with the Panthers first up (missing the finals) and then comes good, which coincides with an injection of junior stars.

I think great leaders can bring out the best in their teams (because they have an ability to connect with a greater range of personalities), but the team needs to have the skillset and ability to reach those greater heights.

Love the Tigers as I do, I can see that its not a team of world beaters.

 

[mccarry2]

Just over three years ago I was so proud of our first few games of the season under Ivan. I remember our defensive line punishing runners. I remember the scramble. I remember the intensity. I felt proud to be part of Wests Tigers.

That year the players hadn’t changed. For some reason they just performed at a higher level.

Over the past year I watched a team leader change in one of my poorer performing businesses. Same team members (players) new leader (coach).

We put an exceptional leader in and the team on average are:
1. more engaged in their work (enabler)
2. growing in skill (enabler)
3. Putting in more discretionary effort (enabler)
4. Getting better results (outcome)

This team now looks like that Tigers team smashing runners, over the moon when something good happens. You can feel it when you interact with them.

Perhaps it’s confidence, perhaps it’s their relationship as a group, perhaps mindset. Either way the stronger leader just gets more from the same people.

When performance is sub standard the first thing I look at is the leader. Time and time again I have seen no greater correlation to performance than the talent of the people leader.

To add weight to this applying to Wests Tigers, I have seen it with my teams in Australia, Japan and China. I have seen it in Finance teams, Sales teams, Service teams and Marketing teams.

Regardless of culture or nature of roles, great leaders get results.

PRINCIPAL 1
STRONGER LEADER, same people = stronger performance.

Principal 1 has maximum impact when the underlying talent of the team is high.

In the recent example the underlying talent in the team was already good. The new leader has a lot to work with.

PRINCIPAL 2 Great Leaders ALWAYS get some overall improvement from a group of people.

When a new leader is applied to an underperforming team and performance doesn’t improve within a few years (2 yrs MAX) the truth is the leader needs to change again. Their role is to get more from people, not just exceptionally talented people.

This is even more obvious when they hire new people and most of these new team members don’t improve overall performance.

Conclusion 1.
If Madge could lead this group to higher performance we would have seen it by now. There would also be more evidence of player growth. Stefano is not the example, he grew when he experienced a different group of leaders (player leaders and coaches).

Absolutely agree.. Here's the rub. Ivan Cleary had the team albeit a different group of players firing initially in 2018 and then they fell off a cliff half way through the season and DIDN'T make the semis (having brought in reinforcements - Moses Mbye and Robbie Farah halfway through the season). Ivan then heads off to Penrith with an FU to the Tigers.

Ivan then has an ordinary season with the Panthers first up (missing the finals) and then comes good, which coincides with an injection of junior stars.

I think great leaders can bring out the best in their teams (because they have an ability to connect with a greater range of personalities), but the team needs to have the skillset and ability to reach those greater heights.

Love the Tigers as I do, I can see that its not a team of world beaters.

Agree and was thinking of Ivan’s mid season slump. I was trying to cover that in my second post. Inconsistent performance when a new ‘Great leader’ comes for me means there is a talent problem.

 

[mccarry2]

I am struggling to identify players who have tangibly improved under Madge?

For clarities sake I am defining improvement as being able to put natural talent into practice more consistently or effectively.

Let’s consider our top 4 players this year in terms of hype.

Stefano
Laurie
Doueihi
Lurch

Would you say the four put their natural talent into practice more effectively?

Would you say the four put their natural talent into practice more consistently?

 

[happy_tiger]

Question

What is the BEST possiblr spot we could finish if we win the next 2...

Crap no matter how many we win

Completely unacceptable