WTF – Wests Tigers Faithful Podcast

Yeah very good post mate
Hi king_sirro.
Good to see you still chiming in with thoughtful takes.
Your strategic breakdown of our rebuild really hit the mark.

I was just reflecting...weren't you a mod here once upon a time?
You carried the role with fairness and insight, from memory.

If it's not prying too much, I've often wondered what led you to stepping back.
No pressure of course, just curious.

Hope you're travelling well.
 
Hi king_sirro.
Good to see you still chiming in with thoughtful takes.
Your strategic breakdown of our rebuild really hit the mark.

I was just reflecting...weren't you a mod here once upon a time?
You carried the role with fairness and insight, from memory.

If it's not prying too much, I've often wondered what led you to stepping back.
No pressure of course, just curious.

Hope you're travelling well.

Mate I lost it one day saying I wanted to fight Russell Packer because he was so soft hahaha....after that carry on I decided to take a break from the forum permanently (or semi permanently) and asked to be removed as a mod and my account deactivated.
 
I think the results speak for themselves and the cost benefit analysis provides a clear answer. I looked at this in the deep dive I did on the spine the other day. You hit the nail on the head in realtion to the quality of the player not changing but the quality of the system. I'm not hard over on Benjis as a coach not being up to speed either. If we are taking about strict performance measurements W v L then he is not performing.

What dropped out of the deep dive is that we have approached the "rebuild" arse about face. In the ideal world you would develop a dominant base (forwards) with a servicable spine to get you off the bottom of the table and then climb the ladder by adding halves, then a hooker and finally a fullback to ice the cake.

It is a system that works together - halves without a stable platform are ineffective. A class hooker does not provide you anything if your halves can't do something with the time and space they provide and the fullback can't inject themselves into the game if it is not managed and directed effectively by the halves.

Now I'm not saying we have gone about it in the wrong way as you have to pick the fruit when it is available - Api was not successful playing in a shit team, Luai isn't effective due to several deficiencies in the system etc.

All of the successful teams have good systems and a stable halves pairing. We are currently in week three of the current (hopefully long term) halves pairing and we have yet to build a pack that has parity with most of our opposition. As you aptly pointed out yesterday there is not a significant difference between high performers and the average - they hey is having enough high performers to make the system better that that used by the others.

If we switch that the coaching side of the house it is a simialar predicament - you have to purchase in what is availabe, when it is available, on the way to building a workable, high performing system.

While I get your argument that it is always if we had more go forward, more of this or more of that I don't subscribe to that approach. What we need is to identify the system we require and build towards that system. The difficulty for all of us, except maybe Benji and Richo, is that we don't know what system we are trying to build in order to measure success agaisnt that plan. Instead we go back to our experiential understanding of what works and statistics and we are impatient, especially as Tigers supporters becasue we haven't seen success in forever.

I'm trying to look at our journey as a whole and have a slower burn outlook on our progress. So the systemm and its developemt, as I see it, in priority order is:
  1. the ability to maintian forward parity and establish dominace at points in time
  2. a stable and workable halves combination working towards a top shelf half
  3. a capable backline with defence
  4. an above average hooker working towards a top shelf player
  5. an above average fullback working towards a dominant fullback
  6. two dominant momentum changing forwards (on rotation)
  7. strike outside backs
Underpinning that is a situationally aware footballer that is able to analyse the opposition, in real time, and adapt the game plan to overcome adversity. This doesn't have to be a spine player - and a coach can perform this role - but it is much better if it is happening on the field.

Benii and Richo's system is probably a little different but I don't think it will be too far off - they may have 6 as mobile ball playing edges - but either way we are deficient in key system areas. When looking at our system I assess that we have 1, 3, 4 and 5. 2 has been destabilised and our deficiences at 6 and 7 are pretty clear for all to see. I think with this sort of model we can see where we were trying to head with Royce though.

Based on this system I had us pegged at being around 12th this year. It will depend on what we buy in to see how much of the system we can address over the off season. May and Toa could be the additional strike we need out wide with Makasini bolstering that in due course. Twal, Seyfarth and Sukkar provide decent depth and give us the ability to maintain forward parity with injuries - they are not starter level forwards though. We need a couple of momentum changers - be that through highly mobile guys with big motors or big bodies on rotation.

As for Benji - too early to judge for me as the system is in development. While the numbers aren't great they are trending up - I'm happy to let the system develop and reassess in 12 months.

the quality of the player not changing the quality of the system.... is a good turn of phrase....I can certainly see that on the pitch.

But I don't know how you can have strike outside backs as your/our last priority. Our forwards are OK. Bit more depth would be better but we're not getting

We are flat out tryin to score more than 16 points a game right now. I can't remember the last devastating line break we had. Look at that try first try Taylan May scored on the weekend. Sometimes Footy is just as simple as being tougher and stronger than your opponent is. Staines, Douehi and Toa et al easily cause the least amount of nightmares of any outside back combo in this league. Turuva is a legit player and is becoming much more mature as the season goes on.

Without strike centres we will quickly turn Luai and Latu into gen 2 Luke Brooks. They need more to build off the back of. We are back just expecting halves to unlock every game for us,
 
the quality of the player not changing the quality of the system.... is a good turn of phrase....I can certainly see that on the pitch.

But I don't know how you can have strike outside backs as your/our last priority. Our forwards are OK. Bit more depth would be better but we're not getting

We are flat out tryin to score more than 16 points a game right now. I can't remember the last devastating line break we had. Look at that try first try Taylan May scored on the weekend. Sometimes Footy is just as simple as being tougher and stronger than your opponent is. Staines, Douehi and Toa et al easily cause the least amount of nightmares of any outside back combo in this league. Turuva is a legit player and is becoming much more mature as the season goes on.

Without strike centres we will quickly turn Luai and Latu into gen 2 Luke Brooks. They need more to build off the back of. We are back just expecting halves to unlock every game for us,
I think you are on point with that and you deinintely need them otherwise, as you have pointed out the points don't come. I think the prioritisation of the ideal build is that centres and wingers, depite playing an important role are cheaper in terms of salary cap so you can probably afford to upgrade them on the way.

It is a team sport and we need it all working together for it to happen. Halves need the go forward to have the space to enable the outside backs. The fullback provdes the ability to create a mismatch, all over the park and the hooker directs the ruck. The halves are definitely the conductors so they are essential links but I don't see players being more important than others as it is a system and underperformance in any area weakens the output.

I am currently finishing up a deep dive on aour inability to stick to a game plan and it has had me asking myself the why. We have most of the key components we need in place. Many would argue that we don't have a coach, but if you put that aside for a minute and look at that we hear from both coaches and players, there is a clear mismatch between what we have planned to do and what is being delivered. Some of that is down to maturity and leadership but I think the key to unlocking it is one or two pieces of the puzzle. A stable halves combination, a ball playing middle, an Alpha middle and an addtional strike centre.

Latu and Romey will continue to improve, Tiny may have addressed the addtional strike we need in the centres. Makasini in due couse should either push Toa to higher levels or push him out. Tito is quality on the wing and Skelton, especially with a couple of his defensive hits will have the oppostion looking. He is also young and developing and could be replaced if he has hit his peak.

In the forwards KPP will shore up the edge held down by Seyfarth and we have good depth in the pack. We lack a ball playing middle and an Alpha forward. AD may be a short term solution to fixing the link between the forwards and halves transition into the missing link between the pack and our halves, if he doesn't we need to buy that cpabaility in as a priority. The missing puzzle piece for me is an alpha forward. Nothing appears to be on the market, but Royce is being worked hard to pcik up his fitness - could he be the impact player we need?

 
I think we underestimate the value of solid depth forwards. The Dolphins are still fighting even without 4 rep forwards on the park. That's because the guys they are picking are Ray Stone, Josh Kerr, Mark Nicholls etc. Look at who we'd be picking in that scenario.
 
Our lack of strike and ability to score tries is a direct result of our forward pack.

We need to improve it a fair bit to get anywhere near the top of the table. We get dominated and can not sustain any sort of pressure or momentum which leads to very little room and time for our halves and outside backs to do anything.

That said it helps having Taylan there now as he can self create without relying on forward momentum.
 

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